SNV font in the United States

[Scott5114]

SNV, short for Schweizerische Normen-Vereinigung (Swiss Standards Organization), is s Swiss road sign font.



Key tells are the lowercase a, the straight sides of the zero, 6, and 9, and the serifs of the 1 and 7.

Somehow, it's been up popping up randomly across the US for no reason I can discern, especially in Arkansas, Texas, and Oklahoma. A couple of examples I've run across on GSV:
Street blades in Oceanside, New York
On Route 66 in Ottawa County, OK

@TBKS1 has a slew of examples from Arkansas, so hopefully he can share.

While it's not a bad font (although Switzerland no longer uses it), I'm completely baffled why this seems to happen so often. Is there some program that just calls it "road sign font" or something?

Anyone have any ideas, or any instances they've seen?

[formulanone]

I've seen a few scattered examples around the Huntsville, Alabama area but only on span-wire street signs.

Was always wondering "what's the font" because it looks like Bahnschrift...but not quite.

[ClassicHasClass]

Aha! We've had a couple examples of this pop up in California. I've noticed a couple around Bakersfield, for example.

[Bobby5280]

The SNV typeface looks related to the various DIN fonts. I haven't seen any street name signs or other sorts of municipal signage using those kinds of typefaces in Oklahoma. I've used certain DIN fonts on some commercial signage. I think FF DIN Paneuropean looks pretty decent.

[ObsidianTheFox]

The SNV typeface looks related to the various DIN fonts. I haven't seen any street name signs or other sorts of municipal signage using those kinds of typefaces in Oklahoma. I've used certain DIN fonts on some commercial signage. I think FF DIN Paneuropean looks pretty decent.

The DIN fonts are superior to SNV imo, SNV comes off as a weird hybrid of DIN, Helvetica, and Highway Gothic (hence me calling it "Helvetiway Gothic" over in the Unique, Odd, and Interesting thread, which has the added meaning of Helvetica coming from the Latin for Switzerland). I'd actually like to see US highway signs start using DIN over Clearview (or maybe even Highway Gothic, but that might be a hard sell). On the other hand, the US SNV examples here look quite ugly (despite the font sample and even Swiss signs set in SNV not looking nearly as bad).

[Bobby5280]

One typeface I kind of like as a substitution for DIN is the variable font version of Config by Adam Ladd. The variable weight, width and slant axes make it pretty good at fitting in a variety of geometrically constrained sign panels.
https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/config-variable

I don't hate on Helvetica like some graphics people, but I do hate Arial and never use it unless a company's brand guidelines specifically mandate it. The original 1957 cut of Helvetica is little on the clunky side. I like New Haas Grotesk Pro, particularly the display styles of it, as an alternative. The Helvetica Neue super-family from 1983 is more refined looking and has the biggest variety of styles. Helvetica Now is improved even more. The variable version is pretty handy. Unfortunately Helvetica Now has no extended styles like Helvetica Neue.

I can understand why some states are reverting from Clearview Highway back to the old Series Gothic (aka "Highway Gothic") fonts. I just wish that type family would get some badly needed improvements. It needs a native small capitals character set, among other features. Clearview Highway doesn't have native small caps either. But the Clearview One family does. 

[Scott5114]

Ran across some SNV signs in Golden, Colorado yesterday: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ysoZ6hGtd1oHP9Lp8

[JayhawkCO]

Ran across some SNV signs in Golden, Colorado yesterday: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ysoZ6hGtd1oHP9Lp8

Hanging out in my neck of the woods? Or GSVing?

One of my good friends lives in a neighborhood right there, and I've never noticed.

[Scott5114]

One typeface I kind of like as a substitution for DIN is the variable font version of Config by Adam Ladd. The variable weight, width and slant axes make it pretty good at fitting in a variety of geometrically constrained sign panels.
https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/config-variable

I don't hate on Helvetica like some graphics people, but I do hate Arial and never use it unless a company's brand guidelines specifically mandate it. The original 1957 cut of Helvetica is little on the clunky side. I like New Haas Grotesk Pro, particularly the display styles of it, as an alternative. The Helvetica Neue super-family from 1983 is more refined looking and has the biggest variety of styles. Helvetica Now is improved even more. The variable version is pretty handy. Unfortunately Helvetica Now has no extended styles like Helvetica Neue.

Heh, I just abuse Nimbus Sans any time I need a Helvetica (which isn't often, since Jake hates it and will have me substitute Series E if we can get away with it.)

I can understand why some states are reverting from Clearview Highway back to the old Series Gothic (aka "Highway Gothic") fonts. I just wish that type family would get some badly needed improvements. It needs a native small capitals character set, among other features. Clearview Highway doesn't have native small caps either. But the Clearview One family does. 

The more experience I get with it, the less I think this is necessary. It would be nice to have, but the fact of the matter is that highway sign software works totally different than commercial sign and graphic design software. Given that I do all my work in Inkscape, which works a lot more like graphic design software, I often have to translate between signage engineers specify and the way that graphic designers work to get Inkscape to do what I want.

Signage engineers usually do stuff like specify a stroke thickness for fonts. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to graphic design people because common fonts like Garamond don't have a uniform stroke thickness that can be specified. So what I end up doing is measuring the native stroke thickness and then using the Offset tool to obtain the desired stroke thickness. That is probably exactly the sort of things sign engineers are doing in lieu of having native small caps. Given that the fonts are known commodities I wouldn't be surprised if there's macros in some software packages that do that all automatically.

Ran across some SNV signs in Golden, Colorado yesterday: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ysoZ6hGtd1oHP9Lp8

Hanging out in my neck of the woods? Or GSVing?

One of my good friends lives in a neighborhood right there, and I've never noticed.

I blew through town en route to Kansas City; my grandmother is moving to an assisted living facility so we're helping clean out her house. Grand Junction to Kansas City in one day is not advised, especially if you get distracted by Wadsworth Blvd. having the number you need for the lowest-route-number game, and then realizing it leads straight into Broomfield County, and then Boulder County is right there and you remember you like Snarf's, so why not...

There are a bunch of other SNV blades in that area, so now you'll have something to look for next time you go visit your friend. They're kind of sprinkled around with some FHWA Series blades too (note that the Hwy 93 blade on the same post is FHWA).

[Bobby5280]

Heh, I just abuse Nimbus Sans any time I need a Helvetica (which isn't often, since Jake hates it and will have me substitute Series E if we can get away with it.)

Nimbus Sans isn't too bad a substitute for Helvetica Neue -especially if you don't have access to the authentic Helvetica fonts. I see a lot of Swiss 721 BT from people who use CorelDRAW. There are various other Helveti-clone fonts. I've seen Nimbus Sans bundled with sign design apps like Flexi, but I got an enormous collection of Nimbus Sans fonts via a copy of Deneba Canvas I bought for cheap over 20 years ago.

One hazard with look-alike fonts is their glyphs won't line up exactly with glyphs from the fonts they're imitating. Tracking/kerning may be different as well. There are legal reasons for that. I have several different versions of Futura from different type companies. None are exactly the same. That can cause all sorts of problems in sign repair work if you don't have the original art files.

The more experience I get with it, the less I think this is necessary. It would be nice to have, but the fact of the matter is that highway sign software works totally different than commercial sign and graphic design software. Given that I do all my work in Inkscape, which works a lot more like graphic design software, I often have to translate between signage engineers specify and the way that graphic designers work to get Inkscape to do what I want.

Various industry-specific sign-making applications have not kept pace with changes/improvements that have taken place with digital type. Many commercially-sold typefaces and even a good number of free typefaces have all sorts of advanced OpenType-related features. Apps like Flexi struggle just to accommodate those advanced type features. I have to use mainstream graphics apps like Adobe Illustrator or CorelDRAW to use variable fonts. They don't work in Flexi. Variable fonts can be used in Inkscape though.

Signage engineers usually do stuff like specify a stroke thickness for fonts. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to graphic design people because common fonts like Garamond don't have a uniform stroke thickness that can be specified. So what I end up doing is measuring the native stroke thickness and then using the Offset tool to obtain the desired stroke thickness. That is probably exactly the sort of things sign engineers are doing in lieu of having native small caps. Given that the fonts are known commodities I wouldn't be surprised if there's macros in some software packages that do that all automatically.

Most sans serif fonts (including even Series Gothic and Clearview Highway) do not have uniform strokes either. Optically, they may look fairly uniform, but they're not. One nice thing about variable fonts is they'll usually have a weight axis, if not more axes like width, slant, etc. If a letter stroke needs to be a certain thickness the weight axis slider can get it there far more gracefully than using clunky outline/path offset methods. I can even use the weight axis slider to gracefully fake a large-cap/small-cap treatment in lettering even if the font doesn't have true small capitals.

[Scott5114]

Brutal driving experiences discussion moved to: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=37494.0

[Chris]

SNV has seen pretty wide adoption in Europe, though as mentioned, Switzerland doesn't use it anymore.

The countries using SNV:

* Belgium
* Luxembourg (partially)
* Bulgaria
* Romania
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Croatia
* Kosovo
* Montenegro
* North Macedonia
* Serbia
* Slovenia

Here's an example from Slovenia, where the coast has bilingual signs (Italian and Slovenian).


Piran by European Roads, on Flickr

Older style:

Piran by European Roads, on Flickr

[jakeroot]

This guide sign on SR-530 in Arlington, WA, which covers another sign during mountain pass closures, seems to be entirely in SNV (apart from JCT, I think):

https://maps.app.goo.gl/s9UFzjcsbLCgyKnR8


Guide sign in non-standard font (WA-530 in Arlington) by Jacob Root, on Flickr

[TBKS1]

So I am back home from being on vacation for the past week. I saw I was mentioned here, and I do have several photos of SNV Becker found in the United States.

Here's this sign located in Cabot, Arkansas from December of last year.


Most signs and street blades in Jonesboro, AR have been replaced with SNV Becker.



As well as most parish installed signs in Caddo Parish, Louisiana.



I have more than this but I'll send these for now.

[Bobby5280]

The more I see of SNV in use the more I dislike it. The lowercase "a" is hideous. In my own commercial sign design tasks, if I need a DIN-look to some type I'll be more likely to use FF DIN, maybe Config Variable or even the Bahnschrift Variable font bundled in the Windows OS.

[TBKS1]

I love this font and I think the reason you don't like it is the same reason why I like it lol

[Chris]

Check out 'Universal Grotesk'. The name itself should get an award 

It was used very widely in Czechoslovakia, and continues to be seen in the field in Slovakia, however it's being rapidly replaced by TERN.



Hriadky 2 by European Roads, on Flickr

[Scott5114]

One thing I noticed is that the Slovenian signs above have much looser character spacing than the US examples. That makes it look a lot better, in my opinion.

[Road Hog]

Kerning is tricky with some fonts. You don't want it too tight or too loose.

[Bobby5280]

Some newer typefaces will literally change both the shapes of the letters and the tracking/kerning between letters depending on whether a "display" or "text" style is chosen. Certain variable fonts let you gradually shift those appearances. The letter forms and spacing of Helvetica Now Display is noticeably different from the Text and Micro settings.

[ClassicHasClass]

Kerning is tricky with some fonts. You don't want it too tight or too loose.

Otherwise it's keming.

[kphoger]

Kerning is tricky with some fonts. You don't want it too tight or too loose.

Otherwise it's keming.

Or it could be ker.ning instead.