Harshest penalties for traffic law violations

[Revive 755]

Kind of curious about which state has the harshest penalties overall.

Couple IL nominations (http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/rules_of_the_road/rr_chap04.html)

* Illegal passing a school bus:  3 month license or vehicle registration suspension on the first offense

* Railroad crossing violation:  1 month license suspension on the first offense

IMHO a license suspension on either of the above seems like overkill for a first offense.

[corco]

I dunno- I think either of those are a pretty blatant offense. It's easy to accidentally go a few miles an hour over the speed limit, but you have to consciously act to pass a school bus. I can foresee a situation where one inadvertently gets stuck in the middle of a railroad crossing, but even that requires a bit of inattentiveness on the driver's part.

Both of those activities are actually dangerous unlike a lot of things we ticket for, and things that are actually dangerous should come with harsh punishments. Speeding a little bit is not an indication of somebody who shouldn't be on the road. Especially if you pass a school bus, it either means you have no idea what the hell you're doing in a car and shouldn't be on the road, or you blatantly disregard the safety of others and shouldn't be on the road.

[agentsteel53]

children need to learn how to cross the street by themselves without artificial aids. 

Wait until the school bus is gone, and you can see and be seen without a giant yellow obstacle in the way.  that is, after all, how it works in every other aspect of real life. 

yes, one should exercise caution when driving near a school or whatnot, but to make one aspect of transportation (children crossing the street after getting off the bus) extra puffy and fluffy and guaranteed harmless, while every other aspect of life remains equally dangerous, means that no one learns that common sense needs to be exercised, both if you are a driver, and if you are a pedestrian.
Post Merge: October 20, 2010, 12:23:06 PM
as for the railroad crossing violation - going around a lowered gate, where the lights are flashing and the train is blaring ... getting flattened into assorted human parts seems like an appropriate punishment.  If, somehow, you manage to get away with it, have fun trying it again next time.

[Revive 755]

as for the railroad crossing violation - going around a lowered gate, where the lights are flashing and the train is blaring ... getting flattened into assorted human parts seems like an appropriate punishment.  If, somehow, you manage to get away with it, have fun trying it again next time.

The way it's written, though, means one could also get their licensed revoked for proceeding past a flashing lights only railroad signal when the train is stopped just short of the crossing and is still sitting there or has reversed directions ( such as switching operations near the crossing - those can really play havoc with the crossing signals)

[agentsteel53]

The way it's written, though, means one could also get their licensed revoked for proceeding past a flashing lights only railroad signal when the train is stopped just short of the crossing and is still sitting there or has reversed directions ( such as switching operations near the crossing - those can really play havoc with the crossing signals)

that is pretty silly.  I've run into switching before - usually there is a flagman directing the switch engine who also manually waves cars through the crossing when it is safe.  Never mind that the lights are going full-tilt.

[corco]

yes, one should exercise caution when driving near a school or whatnot, but to make one aspect of transportation (children crossing the street after getting off the bus) extra puffy and fluffy and guaranteed harmless, while every other aspect of life remains equally dangerous, means that no one learns that common sense needs to be exercised, both if you are a driver, and if you are a pedestrian.

I'm all for natural selection when it comes to children de-boarding buses- we need the population control and it would raise the average level of common sense. That said, society strongly frowns on that idea and the general notion when it comes to raising children is "don't let them cross busy streets without aid"  - whether society places too much value on the lives of idiots or not (and I would argue that they do), society does deem that all life is sacred and that children just aren't as smart as adults. I don't know how to argue that passing a school bus isn't really dangerous and stupid as long as we're operating on the notion that all life is sacred.

[agentsteel53]

the general notion when it comes to raising children is "don't let them cross busy streets without aid"

I don't know when it became such a social bugaboo - crossing the street is just not that difficult. 

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

the general notion when it comes to raising children is "don't let them cross busy streets without aid"

I don't know when it became such a social bugaboo 

When drivers like you came into being.

[agentsteel53]

When drivers like you came into being.

542000 miles without an at fault accident.  The world, frankly, needs more drivers like me.

[J N Winkler]

I think all this criticism of the requirement to stop for school buses is misguided.  That provision in the law operates to the benefit of adult drivers, not just the children.  It adds a redundant layer of safety and thus cuts the risk that an adult driver will have to explain why it was his or her car that hit a child.  Even if he or she is not at fault, the cloud of suspicion and social opprobrium--"Does he or she think life is cheap?"--is hard to dispel.  Moreover, in most parts of the country it is relatively easy to avoid school bus routes during the times when school buses circulate on them, so the inconvenience to motorists is not great compared to, say, 20 MPH school zones.

The key issue in crossing the street is cognitive development, not natural selection.  In order to do it successfully, without the aid of external devices like signalized pedestrian crossings and school bus stop flags, children need to be able to estimate the speed of traffic approaching them and also the ability to appreciate that other objects in their visual field might be blocking their view of traffic that could conflict with them if they attempt to cross.  Even teenagers have difficulty estimating speed and adults often have trouble visualizing the possibility of hidden traffic that will conflict.

The Playstation generation might have more difficulty progressing through this cognitive development than was the case 20 years ago when I was growing up, but even then young children were expected to pay careful attention to traffic, adhere to prescribed routes, follow the lead of older children, and avoid surface arterials.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

NH - reckless driving, $500 AND mandatory 60-day suspension on the first offense.

Yeah, it's reckless, so that's reasonable right?  Not so fast.  I don't remember the reckless statute word-for-word, but it is incredibly vague and gives the police the power to hit you with it for virtually anything.  It's not nearly as vague in the punishment portion of the statute.  How convenient.

[agentsteel53]

I don't remember the reckless statute word-for-word, but it is incredibly vague and gives the police the power to hit you with it for virtually anything. 

so much for "live free or die".

[mgk920]

I don't feel that those panalties are in appropriate at all.

As for railroad crossings, in addition to the harsh penalties, I would include penalty escalators for each passenger in the vehicle.  One of the big reasons why many railroaders end up taking early retirement (at a MAJOR cost to their employers, BTW) is that they have problems after hitting cars, as well as all of the close calls - it gets to people after a while.



Mike

[Tarkus]

The whole school bus thing is an interesting situation.  To an extent, I agree with J N Winkler about the benefit to adult drivers . . . it also minimizes the risk that all the reductionistas come out of the woodwork.

But some school districts abuse this right to a completely absurd extent.  Near my folks' house, the bus that carries 5th and 6th graders stops twice within about 50 feet.  And this isn't an on an arterial--it's a low-volume residential roadway for crying out loud.  Talk about lunacy.

-Alex (Tarkus)

[rarnold]

If one kid is saved from being killed or seriously hurt by a car while getting off the bus, the law is appropriate, and justified. I say make the law more stringent. You pass a school bus with lights flashing, kill a kid, the cops shoot you on site. it has absolutely nothing to do with "common sense." There are grown adults that have none, how do you expect a five year old to understand.

[jdb1234]

The whole school bus thing is an interesting situation.  To an extent, I agree with J N Winkler about the benefit to adult drivers . . . it also minimizes the risk that all the reductionistas come out of the woodwork.

But some school districts abuse this right to a completely absurd extent.  Near my folks' house, the bus that carries 5th and 6th graders stops twice within about 50 feet.  And this isn't an on an arterial--it's a low-volume residential roadway for crying out loud.  Talk about lunacy.

-Alex (Tarkus)

It could be worse, in my neighborhood, one of the many school buses through here comes by at 6:15 A.M.

[agentsteel53]

If one kid is saved from being killed or seriously hurt by a car while getting off the bus, the law is appropriate, and justified. I say make the law more stringent. You pass a school bus with lights flashing, kill a kid, the cops shoot you on site. it has absolutely nothing to do with "common sense." There are grown adults that have none, how do you expect a five year old to understand.

you imply that kids' lives are worth more than adults'.

[Scott5114]

I don't feel that those panalties are in appropriate at all.

Panalties?

You pass a school bus with lights flashing, kill a kid, the cops shoot you on site.

So one manslaughter justifies abandoning the right to due process? Yeah, I'm not voting for you...

[rarnold]

You're right, shooting people might be a bit extreme. Maybe permanent license revocation would work? I like that idea better, plus no one gets shot, and due process is not violated.

[agentsteel53]

You're right, shooting people might be a bit extreme. Maybe permanent license revocation would work? I like that idea better, plus no one gets shot, and due process is not violated.

without consideration of the facts, there is no due process.  If you hit someone because they're either a moron or actively suicidal, and they take off full speed into your grille faster than any human reflex can avert the collision, then you need to have every opportunity to prove in court that you are not responsible.  

[corco]

without consideration of the facts, there is no due process.  If you hit someone because they're either a moron or actively suicidal, and they take off full speed into your grille faster than any human reflex can avert the collision, then you need to have every opportunity to prove in court that you are not responsible. 

If you drive through giant red flashing lights on a very visible yellow bus and a big red octagon that says STOP and in some jurisdictions even a big barrier or sorts, that's a good indication that you're not responsible. Like with any other traffic violation, I'm sure you'd have the opportunity to prove in court that you are not responsible.

[agentsteel53]

I think we've completely overloaded the word "responsible".  I meant responsibility as in liability, not responsibility as a vague synonym for common sense!

I once drove through a set of giant flashing lights with an extended octagonal sign yade yada.  I was proceeding through an intersection with a six or eight lane arterial, with a school bus coming the opposite way.  It turned on its lights as I was entering the intersection on green, and stopped on the other side of the intersection, right on the corner.  I was forced to go just past its implied barrier in order to get out of the intersection. 

Colossal irresponsibility on the part of the bus driver, or even those who planned the bus route.  If you want people to stop, you have to give them the time and space to be able to do so safely.  I wasn't about to come to a halt in the middle of a large arterial street and get creamed when the light changed.

[corco]

I once drove through a set of giant flashing lights with an extended octagonal sign yade yada.  I was proceeding through an intersection with a six or eight lane arterial, with a school bus coming the opposite way.  It turned on its lights as I was entering the intersection on green, and stopped on the other side of the intersection, right on the corner.  I was forced to go just past its implied barrier in order to get out of the intersection. 

Colossal irresponsibility on the part of the bus driver, or even those who planned the bus route.  If you want people to stop, you have to give them the time and space to be able to do so safely.  I wasn't about to come to a halt in the middle of a large arterial street and get creamed when the light changed.

If you never heard about it again though, I'd bet the bus driver didn't think you committed a crime. I'm pretty sure they are actually required to report people who pass them illegally so the police can pay them a nice visit.

[agentsteel53]

Like with any other traffic violation, I'm sure you'd have the opportunity to prove in court that you are not responsible.

Being summarily executed by the roadside kinda puts a damper on my ability to appear in court.  Well, I suppose my lawyer might survive to represent my estate.  Hey Rarnold, maybe the punishment you devised should include executing my lawyer, all my heirs, and even my friend Mike, my former college roommate Bryan, and that one guy who took my order at the fast food place the other day ... lest one of them come to avenge me.

[agentsteel53]

If you never heard about it again though, I'd bet the bus driver didn't think you committed a crime. I'm pretty sure they are actually required to report people who pass them illegally so the police can pay them a nice visit.

I did my absolute best to proceed safely through an absurd situation, so hopefully the driver gave me leeway with regard to the poor planning of his school district.

well, that and I had plates from eight states away, at a time that I was living about eleven states away.