Right on Red

[vdeane]

Maybe they could invent some sort of sign where turning on red would be prohibited where traffic engineers believe motorists should not turn on red. It would say "No Turn On Red".

We should invent drivers who will follow those signs. Self-driving cars may come to bite us in the butt as they will follow laws as intended, in a bit of schadenfreude.

One thing that I just thought of is that, when right on red was made the default, pedestrian curb ramps were usually done one per corner on a diagonal to serve two crosswalks.  These days, that's discouraged, due to the impacts on safety and people with disabilities.  The result is that crosswalks are often further back than they were in the past, resulting in fewer places where one can safely turn right on red and still stay behind the stop line.  It's possible that right on red would not have been made an automatic default if the issue were debated today.

Compared to some countries, we still place the stop line relatively close to the intersection. Places like the UK (which don't permit the equivalent movement) place the stop line rather far back from the "box" of the junction (note the example image below). This is for several reasons, I assume: 1) visibility from the stop line is not important, 2) crosswalks are usually perpendicular to the carriageway, so at slightly askew junctions, the crosswalk (and thus the stop line) can be set very far back from the intersection, and 3) bike boxes are, more and more often, painted in front of stop lines, but behind the crosswalk. This means that, to turn left on red, one would need to drive through both a bike box and a crosswalk.

Why does this matter? The US places its stop line right on top of the crosswalk (in places like California and Oregon, the first line of the crosswalk is the stop line). This makes it, frankly, way too easy to turn on red. If we made it, geometrically, more awkward for drivers to turn on red, they might be more likely to obey any posted "no turn on red sign".

Not only that, but US crosswalks tend to be closer to the intersection too (though that's changing due to efforts to reduce the distance pedestrians have to spend in the roadway and improve visibility).  And bike boxes are rare here.

As far as whether stop lines are posted separately or are part of the crosswalk, NY is inconsistent.

[jeffandnicole]

Waking this thread up...

Checking out the new Garden State Parkway (NJ) construction via Google, I came upon this situation:  https://goo.gl/maps/QZKLfUUuy7P2

It appears the lane lines originally went to the crosswalk, where one can turn right to get to the southbound Parkway.  However, there's a small side street just before that, of which the sole purpose is to access the Cape May Chamber of Commerce Building (https://goo.gl/maps/qaoMGtsp94n).  It appears this was an afterthought, and the access out of that side street will be controlled by a traffic light.  As of the time the GSV passed by, it wasn't turned on yet (I have no idea if it since in use)

There is no 'No Turn On Red' sign here. 

So...the question as it relates to the thread: Would you turn right on red passing the side street to enter the GSP?  Technically, you're turning right on red...just not at the first street!  Obviously, there is a conflict there if that side street happened to have a green light.

[Joe The Dragon]

Waking this thread up...

Checking out the new Garden State Parkway (NJ) construction via Google, I came upon this situation:  https://goo.gl/maps/QZKLfUUuy7P2

It appears the lane lines originally went to the crosswalk, where one can turn right to get to the southbound Parkway.  However, there's a small side street just before that, of which the sole purpose is to access the Cape May Chamber of Commerce Building (https://goo.gl/maps/qaoMGtsp94n).  It appears this was an afterthought, and the access out of that side street will be controlled by a traffic light.  As of the time the GSV passed by, it wasn't turned on yet (I have no idea if it since in use)

There is no 'No Turn On Red' sign here. 

So...the question as it relates to the thread: Would you turn right on red passing the side street to enter the GSP?  Technically, you're turning right on red...just not at the first street!  Obviously, there is a conflict there if that side street happened to have a green light.

In my local area at there are a few odd ones.

this one has a sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0505656,-87.9124032,3a,60y,216.56h,84.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_M35w87mSdTcEfgNssIB-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

no sign and people use both lanes for right on red
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.037042,-87.9633359,3a,29.9y,270.7h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAczIacbZcNMUhcpwsBCqZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

is it ok here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0785627,-87.9702596,3a,60y,316.65h,87.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO3UzfMLONY3IOuloUV5QEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[jeffandnicole]

is it ok here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0785627,-87.9702596,3a,60y,316.65h,87.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO3UzfMLONY3IOuloUV5QEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I would say yes it's fine here.

It should also be noted the traffic lights are way too close to the stop line, with no downstream light.  A car at the stop line would have trouble seeing them.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.037042,-87.9633359,3a,29.9y,270.7h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAczIacbZcNMUhcpwsBCqZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

No sign = Permitted.

[vdeane]

is it ok here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0785627,-87.9702596,3a,60y,316.65h,87.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO3UzfMLONY3IOuloUV5QEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I would say yes it's fine here.

Assuming that's meant to be the one on the slip ramp, I wouldn't consider that to be a right but rather a straight (you're going straight on the ramp, not turning right off the ramp into the sidewalk).

[jp the roadgeek]

I say this one is ok, although it's almost going straight.  The arrows save you

https://goo.gl/maps/J3q2mekYQfr

[jeffandnicole]

is it ok here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0785627,-87.9702596,3a,60y,316.65h,87.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO3UzfMLONY3IOuloUV5QEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I would say yes it's fine here.

Assuming that's meant to be the one on the slip ramp, I wouldn't consider that to be a right but rather a straight (you're going straight on the ramp, not turning right off the ramp into the sidewalk).

I've seen cases where if there's ambiguity, they'll clearly denote via signage that going thru the signal isn't allowed.

In this case: https://goo.gl/maps/twSR2PgqZxr , although it appears straight, it's actually a slip ramp off the main road.  Red arrows and NTOR signage fully clarifies that you're not supposed to go thru the red light.

[catsynth]

I actually detest right-on-red here in San Francisco.  Not only have I been nearly hit several times, motorists who wait/yield at a right turn get honked (mostly by traditional taxis).  I'd love to bring NYC's rules here, at least for the downtown areas where I live and work.

[empirestate]

I say this one is ok, although it's almost going straight.  The arrows save you

https://goo.gl/maps/J3q2mekYQfr

Now that brings up something interesting: if you can make a right on red at an intersection like this, why isn't it permitted to proceed straight through a T-intersection, if you're in the outside lane and there's no traffic approaching on the intersecting street? Geometrically, they're essentially identical.

[hotdogPi]

I say this one is ok, although it's almost going straight.  The arrows save you

https://goo.gl/maps/J3q2mekYQfr

Now that brings up something interesting: if you can make a right on red at an intersection like this, why isn't it permitted to proceed straight through a T-intersection, if you're in the outside lane and there's no traffic approaching on the intersecting street? Geometrically, they're essentially identical.

I proposed that about 1½ years ago. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16637

[empirestate]

I say this one is ok, although it's almost going straight.  The arrows save you

https://goo.gl/maps/J3q2mekYQfr

Now that brings up something interesting: if you can make a right on red at an intersection like this, why isn't it permitted to proceed straight through a T-intersection, if you're in the outside lane and there's no traffic approaching on the intersecting street? Geometrically, they're essentially identical.

I proposed that about 1½ years ago. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16637

Interesting...I wonder why it didn't work out in those places where it was tried? Unless I'm missing something, all the objections raised in that thread would apply equally well to right on red.