Inquiry about frustrating Wichita interchanges

[dom1_4802]

Does anyone know the rationale for leaving the Exit 50, where Kellogg and KTA/I-35 met, as this awkward, essentially castrated, unsigned on Kellogg remnant of what used to be a double-trumpet interchange? Google Maps - Exit 50

On I-35 the interchange it is now signed as Webb Road. The only way to access this interchange from Kellogg is to exit at Rock Road to reach it, despite there being no signage on Kellogg indicating that I-35 is accessible from that interchange. The only acknowledgment of its existence is a lone overhead sign located after the Rock Road exit on the eastbound frontage road, making it nearly impossible to know to use that route in the first place. Google Streetview

Why preserve the interchange in this half-removed state instead of just eliminating it and consolidating all access to the I-35/K-96/127th St E interchange to the east?

Also, what's the deal with the incomplete access between Kellogg and I-35 about two miles east of here? Eastbound Kellogg can access both NB and SB I-35, but NB I-35 has no direct access to Kellogg (must detour through K-96), and SB I-35 only connects directly to eastbound Kellogg. To westbound also requires a K-96 detour. The whole layout is really confusing and feels disjointed and frustratingly unorganized. It also appears to take SO MUCH REAL ESTATE and so apparently unnecessarily. Was there a phasing plan or long-term vision that never materialized? Google Maps - I-35 & Kellogg

And another frustrating observation: the random ramp from Kellogg EB Frontage to SB I-35 behind Lowe's. Completely redundant. Google Maps - Useless access I-35 SB
KDOT appears to be doubling-down on this seemingly useless access to I-35, as seen in the East Kellogg improvement plans. East Kellogg Improvements PDF map

[kphoger]

Why preserve the interchange in this half-removed state instead of just eliminating it and consolidating all access to the I-35/K-96/127th St E interchange to the east?

Also, what's the deal with the incomplete access between Kellogg and I-35 about two miles east of here?

Doesn't one question actually answer the other?  The two together provide complete access.

For what it's worth, this is my part of town.  I live near Lincoln & Edgemoor.  If I'm heading north up I-35, then Exit #50 is where I get on.  I head east on Lincoln, north on Rock, and then get on the Turnpike.

And another frustrating observation: the random ramp from Kellogg EB Frontage to SB I-35 behind Lowe's. Completely redundant.

That's not redundant.  That's how all of the Wal-Mart and Lowe's traffic gets to I-35 SB.  Otherwise, they would all have to exit to the west on an already-overloaded access road to Greenwich.  Imagine you're a truck driver, just leaving Lowe's, and heading south down I-35, and now tell me you don't love that on-ramp.

[kphoger]

On I-35 the interchange it is now signed as Webb Road. The only way to access this interchange from Kellogg is to exit at Rock Road to reach it, despite there being no signage on Kellogg indicating that I-35 is accessible from that interchange. The only acknowledgment of its existence is a lone overhead sign located after the Rock Road exit on the eastbound frontage road, making it nearly impossible to know to use that route in the first place.

Also, this is a feature, not a bug.  Have you ever been at Kellogg and Woodlawn/Armour/Rock at, say, 5pm on a weekday?  Or a Saturday anytime within a month of Christmas?  If so, then you know the utter chaos that those intersections frequently become.  With that in mind, why would you want to add a bunch of Turnpike traffic into the mix, when they could instead be guided by signs to an all-free-flowing interchange nearby?

[webny99]

The whole layout is really confusing and feels disjointed and frustratingly unorganized.

I have actually looked at this whole complex of interchanges and thought exactly the same thing.

Why preserve the interchange in this half-removed state instead of just eliminating it and consolidating all access to the I-35/K-96/127th St E interchange to the east?

Also, what's the deal with the incomplete access between Kellogg and I-35 about two miles east of here?

Doesn't one question actually answer the other?  The two together provide complete access.

Maybe sort of. But, three things.

1. The concept of a turnpike or toll road needing multiple different interchanges to provide complete access is foreign to me. Isn't the whole point of a turnpike or toll road to have consolidated access points? Having two so close together makes it feel like just any other local freeway.

2. The two interchanges work together in a way that is, in my opinion, very disjointed. Firstly, there are no longer any free-flowing movements between Kellogg and the Turnpike at Exit 50. The closest one is from the Turnpike to Kellogg EB, using the U-turn at Webb. But the other three connections all require passing through one or more traffic signals. So basically, it's not a connection to Kellogg anymore, only to local roads. Which, fine. But then those movements should all be accommodated at the new Exit 53 ramps, but they're not. Because you still have to use Exit 50 to get to that whole area from the Turnpike NB. Also, if you're heading WB on Kellogg, pass K 96, and need to get to the Turnpike, forget about it. Your only options are to turn around at Greenwich and head back east to the new Exit 53 ramps, or get off at Webb and turn around at Eastern Ave to get to Exit 50. requiring not one but two traffic signals. That Exit 50 on-ramp is really all but useless for traffic heading west.

3. The result of all of this is that drivers will quite frequently enter at Exit 50, but then exit at Exit 53. Or vice versa. You're hardly ever doing the same thing in one direction as you are in the other. And that messes with my perfectionism. Big time.

[kphoger]

Isn't the whole point of a turnpike or toll road to have consolidated access points?

I thought the whole point of a turnpike or toll road was to charge drivers a toll to drive it.  Which this one does.

there are no longer any free-flowing movements between Kellogg and the Turnpike at Exit 50. The closest one is from the Turnpike to Kellogg EB, using the U-turn at Webb. But the other three connections all require passing through one or more traffic signals.

But, before reconstruction, there were stoplights both west and east of the interchange, so 'free flowing' wasn't really a thing anyway.  The double trumpet itself was free-flowing, but actually using it was not a free-flowing experience.

So basically, it's not a connection to Kellogg anymore, only to local roads. Which, fine.

As I said, no less than it used to be.

But then those movements should all be accommodated at the new Exit 53 ramps, but they're not. Because you still have to use Exit 50 to get to that whole area from the Turnpike NB.

Well, you technically don't.  You can us Exit 53, then connect to Kellogg via K-96.  A convoluted route, but I'm sure plenty of people do it.

Also, if you're heading WB on Kellogg, pass K 96, and need to get to the Turnpike, forget about it. Your only options are to turn around at Greenwich and head back east to the new Exit 53 ramps, or get off at Webb and turn around at Eastern Ave to get to Exit 50, requiring not one but two traffic signals. That Exit 50 on-ramp is really all but useless for traffic heading west.

Huh?

1.  Exit at Webb.  U-turn at Eastern.  Get on at Exit 50.  One stoplight required.

2.  Exit at Rock.  U-turn at Rock.  Get on at Exit 50.  No stoplight required.

The result of all of this is that drivers will quite frequently enter at Exit 50, but then exit at Exit 53. Or vice versa. You're hardly ever doing the same thing in one direction as you are in the other. And that messes with my perfectionism. Big time.

If I'm heading north to Emporia or whatever, then I get on the Turnpike at Exit 50, and on the return trip get off at Exit 53A.  This does not mess with my mind.

[webny99]

I thought the whole point of a turnpike or toll road was to charge drivers a toll to drive it.  Which this one does.

  I don't think I NEED to clarify that "whole point" was hyperbole. But anyways, drivers are prepared to pay tolls because they're getting a better driving experience than the free alternatives, and having consolidated access points with limited entering and weaving traffic is a part of that.

But, before reconstruction, there were stoplights both west and east of the interchange, so 'free flowing' wasn't really a thing anyway.  The double trumpet itself was free-flowing, but actually using it was not a free-flowing experience.

Well, right. You'd much rather have Kellogg be a freeway and lose out on the Turnpike connectivity than to have just left things as they were. But the direct connectivity between the Turnpike and Kellogg was worsened as a result. Of course, the extent to which it's worsened may not be very meaningful in practice, but it is at the very least more convoluted than it used to be, and traffic to/from the Turnpike doesn't get the full benefit of Kellogg being a freeway, because they have to access it via the service road first.

So basically, it's not a connection to Kellogg anymore, only to local roads. Which, fine.

As I said, no less than it used to be.

There is less of a direct connection to the Kellogg mainline than there used to be, but of course, the meaning of Kellogg mainline has changed so much that this point is probably not all that relevant. Other than the fact that traffic connecting to the Turnpike doesn't get the benefit of Kellogg being a freeway, as mentioned above.

1.  Exit at Webb.  U-turn at Eastern.  Get on at Exit 50.  One stoplight required.

2.  Exit at Rock.  U-turn at Rock.  Get on at Exit 50.  No stoplight required.

Sorry, I s-tagged the part about two stoplights, but I was too late. I was also incorrectly assuming a stoplight or at least a stop sign at Eastern Ave. Until I checked Street View, it never even occurred to me that the service road could be free-flowing there.

Point stands that, once past K 96 on Kellogg WB, you have to make a U-turn to access the Turnpike. I don't know if that's problematic in practice, but it does run counter to "complete access" being provided. In my opinion.

If I'm heading north to Emporia or whatever, then I get on the Turnpike at Exit 50, and on the return trip get off at Exit 53A.  This does not mess with my mind.

Not your mind because you're a local. But it could if you were unfamiliar with the area.

Counterpoint: you could also just get on the Turnpike at Exit 53 too. I'd be shocked if the time differential is more than 30 seconds one way or the other. And I'm not sure how KTA's toll billing works, but driving ~3 less miles on the Turnpike could even save you a few cents.

[kphoger]

Point stands that, once past K 96 on Kellogg WB, you have to make a U-turn to access the Turnpike. I don't know if that's problematic in practice, but it does run counter to "complete access" being provided. In my opinion.

Nope, U-turns are no problem.  They're Texas crossovers, basically.  I do a U-turn onto Kellogg whenever we go anywhere to the west of our house.  The one at Webb is re-e-e-ally wide and easily accommodates trucks.  Very free-flowing.

The ones closer to me can get overwhelmed at rush hour, but I don't think that's a problem at the ones we're talking about.

If I'm heading north to Emporia or whatever, then I get on the Turnpike at Exit 50, and on the return trip get off at Exit 53A.  This does not mess with my mind.

Counterpoint: you could also just get on the Turnpike at Exit 53 too. I'd be shocked if the time differential is more than 30 seconds one way or the other. And I'm not sure how KTA's toll billing works, but driving ~3 less miles on the Turnpike could even save you a few cents.

And indeed I might next time.  I think, last time I went north on the Turnpike, that ramp wasn't open yet.

[PColumbus73]

Somewhat unrelated, I noticed that the BGSs on Kellogg omit the suffix for street names like for Rock. Is that a localism?

I don't really see the issue with exits 50 and 53 as-is. Exit 50 is still technically a complete interchange using the U-turns, which could be interpreted as a compressed T junction. It's probably inconvenient enough to deter non-locals who might be more inclined to exit at I-135 or K 96.

[edwaleni]

Someone can ask one of the Wichita You Tube Mafia what they prefer, since they are out driving it so much to pick up hoopties on their trailers.

[kphoger]

Somewhat unrelated, I noticed that the BGSs on Kellogg omit the suffix for street names like for Rock. Is that a localism?

I don't really see the issue with exits 50 and 53 as-is. Exit 50 is still technically a complete interchange using the U-turns, which could be interpreted as a compressed T junction. It's probably inconvenient enough to deter non-locals who might be more inclined to exit at I-135 or K 96.

Yes.  Adding the generic is more of a recent phenomenon.

Example:  K-96 @ Woodlawn before and after
Example:  I-135 @ Pawnee before and after
Example:  I-235 @ Broadway before and after