Clearview banned in Massachusetts

[PurdueBill]

This appears to be the case, looking at the MassDOT interchange list as well. Technically, MA 138 should be 1B/C since its closer to the 1 mile marker, with I-95 at the end of I-93 South 1A. There appears to be a blank space in the new Exit 1 signs for just that purpose. Recalling the numbers for I-93 exits 1-20, hopefully, from a spreadsheet I don't have in front of me, the new (old) exit numbers would be: 1A(1), 1B/C (2A/B), 3(3), 4(4A), 4B/C(5A/B), 6(6), 7(7), 8(8), 9(9), 10(10), 11A/B (11A/B), 12(12), 13A(13), 13B(14), 14(15), 15(16), 16(18), and 17(20). This won't happen until at least the last I-93 sign contract is finished in March 2014.

Strange to make A become B and B become C just to use the exit number 1 when Exit 2 would go unused.  If there's a time for fudging, it's something like this, where 2A-B could stay 2A-B with fudging of about a tenth of a mile.  Heck, there are places where I've seen things like mile marker 219 SB right at the gore point of Exit 218 on I-71--actually exits 218, 220, and 222 local to me these days all are closer to the next higher whole number mile but were posted as they are--who knows why.  Same seems to go for Exits 5A-B--why not leave them 5A-B instead of changing to a B-C when Exit 5 is going to go unused?  It's pretty unlikely that a new Exit 5 would be built there anyway.
The potential confusion with a change from consecutive to mileage exit numbers is always worst at the low end of the numbers, where the old and new numbers may appear near each other, but in the case of I-93 it's pretty extreme with the old and new being fairly close to each other for most of the route.  The current exits 2 and 5 seem like worthy candidates for fudging a fraction of a mile to be able to avoid number changes and addition/changes of suffix letters.  (Ironically, less need for suffixed exits, like 10A and 11A on the Mass Pike, is sometimes given as a benefit of mileage-based exit numbers, but in the case of 93, a strict application leads to a lot MORE suffix letters and changes to existing ones (A becoming B and B becoming C).  Strange!)

[rickmastfan67]

Recalling the numbers for I-93 exits 1-20, hopefully, from a spreadsheet I don't have in front of me, the new (old) exit numbers would be: 1A(1), 1B/C (2A/B), 3(3), 4(4A), 4B/C(5A/B), 6(6), 7(7), 8(8), 9(9), 10(10), 11A/B (11A/B), 12(12), 13A(13), 13B(14), 14(15), 15(16), 16(18), and 17(20). This won't happen until at least the last I-93 sign contract is finished in March 2014.

It's there a rule that prohibits using a solo number without a letter if there is going to be other ramps in that mile with letters?  If so, "4" should stay as "4A" to work with the new "4B/4C".

[roadman]

The Department will be updating the exit numbers to the reference-based
system on a route-by-route basis, after existing signs within a given highway corridor have been
updated during normal replacement."

So what does that mean for the present I-93 signing projects underway?  Will I-93 be the first route in the state to go mile-based?  After present projects are completed, it will have all new signs from end to end (right?).  So makes sense. 

Or will they wait for I-91 signage to be replaced (within the next couple of years) and THAT will be the first road to go mile-based? 

As I understand it, MassDOT's plan is to re-number exits on a corridor-by-corridor basis once sign updates have been completed.  The renumbering would be completed mostly on a west to east, and south to north, basis.  So expect most of the shorter freeways, such as I-84, I-395, and Route 146, to be completed first, followed by Route 2 and the MassPike - which tenatively has sign updating work scheduled to begin in 2015.

Of course, this all presumes that the Legislature doesn't step in and try to stop the re-numbering (like they did almost 40 years ago when MassDPW first attempted to de-designate Route 128 south of Peabody).

[PHLBOS]

I find it interesting that there appears to be a perceptible difference in the width of the borders of the two signs on US 3; the newer sign on the right seems to have a slightly wider white border.  I wonder if it's an illusion or real?

It's real; the border on the right BGS is clearly thicker or, from the old 'Chunky' candy commercial, "thickerer."

I do recall the signs north of Peabody on I-95 before exit numbers; they were among the oldest "new-looking" signs out there when they were finally replaced.  I recall that southbound at Alfalfa Circle during the time that 95 SB was closed from there to Peabody during the construction of the final link to 128 and the use of the existing 95 SB to US 1 SB ramp as a left-exit for 95 NB from 1 NB that they even added an I-95 shield to the Exit 50 overheads such that they read US 1 - I-95 on the top line, and TO MA 62/114 on the next line, with square 114 shields.  As I recall, the bottom lines of advance signs said "Exit 1 mile" etc. even after the exit numbers were added--not much sense in bothering to remove the word "exit" and rearrange.

The old signs from MA 114 to US 1 were the original signs from the early 70s and featured the thick, off-white/beige borders, lettering.  All the shields on those signs were replaced during the early 80s; the newer US 1 shields featured a white square w/the outline of the US shield.

The older (but not original) signs from US 1 to the state line were erected in the mid-70s as part of the 1974 widening project and featured a more reflective and white/grey borders, lettering and shields w/no borders (US & state shields). 

Yes, all the exit signs indeed featured the use of the word 'EXIT' next to the distance even after the exit number tabs were added in the late 80s.

I also remember that temporary adding of the I-95 shield (with the goofy font that MassDPW and RIDOT experimented with at the time) being placed on the EXIT 50 signs.  At that time, the original pull-through sign (which read "95 SOUTH Lynn Boston" BTW) was covered with a tarp.

While those signs are clearly older versions of the modern BGS style; many of the signs along MA 128 (including that Blizzard of '78 photo in Canton) were actually a few years older ('72-'73) and featured the same style and materials.  One or two surviving new/old BGS' style can be found along US 20 in Sturbridge just west of I-84 near the State Police barracks.

The Blizzard of 78 photo shows the old small characters on the exit tab as well as the old exit number that carried through from 128--what was Exit 64N off 128 SB is now Exit 2B off I-93 NB; I wonder if it will remain Exit 2 when things are numbered by mileage.  It might be worth it to fudge it if it's not perfectly supposed to be.  Looking at the exit numbers and mileage, it actually appears that Exits 1-16 could probably all keep their existing numbers with minimal fudging, if any.  That would sure make things a lot easier.

Given some of the liberties PennDOT took in some areas when it changed over to mileage-based exit numbers nearly a decade ago; I would expect MassDOT to exercise similar... especially if it means less usage of As, Bs, Cs, etc. where possible/practical.

[roadman]

Also found this little gem in the Massachusetts Amendments (section 2E.31):

"Massachusetts will be changing all its interchange exit signs statewide to the reference location
numbering system, with the entire state highway system to be converted to the new numbers within
the next five to ten years. The Department will be updating the exit numbers to the reference-based
system on a route-by-route basis, after existing signs within a given highway corridor have been
updated during normal replacement."

sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. even the mass pike? will interchanges 18-20 suddenly have one number?

Great news regarding No use of Clearview. 

With regards to MA adopting mileage-based exit/interchange numbering: I am surprised that they didn't do when the Big Dig was nearing completion roughly a decade ago... particularly along I-93.  The change from the elevated Central Artery to the O'Neill Tunnel translated to the current gaps in I-93's sequential exit numbering.  The tunnel has less ramps than the old Artery.

That's what I mean--changing old signs means dealing with the tab that overlaps the main sign; waiting for new installs before changing exit numbers avoids that.  Several states used to have tabs with a continuous border around the main sign and tab (RI, ME, PA, and OH, for example), but only those in Mass ever seemed to have so much overlap of the tab lettering onto the main sign area.  That is, one couldn't remove the tab easily because the lettering was attached to both the tab metal and the main sign metal.  Some 90s signs even had a much more visible overlap than some older ones; it always seemed that it was an effort to make the total area of the sign plus tab smaller.  You couldn't draw the extension of the main sign border underneath the exit tab without crossing through the exit tab lettering.





The new signage with more common tabs separated from the main sign with a border even have a separate inventory number for the tab, which will make it much easier to not only change the exit number but to change the whole tab if that's what they want to do.

Looks like that I-95 South Exit sign off US 3 is a more recent replacement (from the US 3 widening project perhaps?).  IIRC, the previous sign, with the somewhat oversized button-copy 95, featured a more standard exit sign layout with one arrow placed on the right-hand side of the board.

Prior to the mid-80s, all lettering for BGS (regardless of whether they were button-copy or not) were either riveted or nailed to the signboard.  If a change was needed, one just simply removed the old numerals and rivited/nailed the replacement lettering or numerals.  As long as the update didn't involve a major change in width; it didn't matter too much what type or style exit tab was used.

However, by the time, I-93 and I-95 had their exit numbers changed to the current ones (1986-1987 respectively); MassDPW was using the current adhesive-mountings for all their lettering.  As a result, all the exit number changed involved either the  installation of new tabs or new numbers (in 'sticker' form) being placed on the old tabs.

Along I-95 north of 128, the DPW actually removed segments of the top white outline borders of its BGS signs (this part of 95 originally had no numbered exits) in order to have the then-newly erected exit tabs look like it was part of the orginal BGS (these exit tabs were centered on the top of the signs per the older DPW/MUTCD standards); though the shade of green and shinyness of the newer lettering were the dead give-away.  The signs in question were from the mid-70s and have all since been replaced with newer signs at least once (twice in some areas).

MassDOT standards still call for demountable copy (removable letters) on extruded OH and GM BGSes.

However, overlays will likely be used for the new exit numbers for two reasons:  First, it is quicker and far less labor intensive to install an overlay on a sign than it is to remove and replace individual numerals.  Second, when you remove demountable copy on signs that are more than six months to a year old, you get a 'shadowing' effect from the fading of the background.

Regarding I-95 north of Route 128 in Peabody, note that the signs between 133 in Georgetown and 286 in Salisbury are being replaced under a sign update project that is nearing completion.

And yes, I remember not only the Massachusetts BGSes with exit tabs with legend all the same height, but the even earlier BGSes that had exit tabs that were totally separated from the main sign panel by 1 to 2 feet.

[PHLBOS]

... when you remove demountable copy on signs that are more than six months to a year old, you get a 'shadowing' effect from the fading of the background.

I've seen that 'shadowing' effect on many older signs over the years.  The 70s-era I-93 BGS', following the 80s exit number changes and the early-70s BGS' signs for MA 114 at the US 1 and I-95 interchanges, when the DPW replaced the incorrect/long obsolete NORTH-SOUTH cardinals for 114 with the correct WEST-EAST cardinals.  The latter replacements resulted in what I called the infamous Green 'H's on all but one 114 pull-through sign.

Regarding I-95 north of Route 128 in Peabody, note that the signs between 133 in Georgetown and 286 in Salisbury are being replaced under a sign update project that is nearing completion.

I was just up there this past Memorial Day weekend.  Most if not all the BGS' appeared to be brand new.

And yes, I remember not only the Massachusetts BGSes with exit tabs with legend all the same height, but the even earlier BGSes that had exit tabs that were totally separated from the main sign panel by 1 to 2 feet.

I remember those too.

[roadman]

Of course, you can get overlays horribly wrong as well.  Does anyone else remember when speed limits on most Massachusetts interstates were increased back to 65.  MassHighway went out and overlaid the numerals on the signs.

Good idea, except they only overlaid the first '5' with a '6', instead of overlaying '55' with '65'.  The result at night was signs with horribly mis-matched numbers.

[PHLBOS]

Of course, you can get overlays horribly wrong as well.  Does anyone else remember when speed limits on most Massachusetts interstates were increased back to 65.  MassHighway went out and overlaid the numerals on the signs.

Good idea, except they only overlaid the first '5' with a '6', instead of overlaying '55' with '65'.  The result at night was signs with horribly mis-matched numbers.

When the national 55 mph Speed Limit first took effect; many Speed Limit signs along I-95/MA 128 south of the Pike had 55 stickers placed on signs that were shorter in height than the original numerals (which was 60 at the time).  As a result, one could actually see 'traces' of the old 60 mph speed limit on those signs; many of them were still around until the mid-to-late 80s.

[roadman]

Of course, you can get overlays horribly wrong as well.  Does anyone else remember when speed limits on most Massachusetts interstates were increased back to 65.  MassHighway went out and overlaid the numerals on the signs.

Good idea, except they only overlaid the first '5' with a '6', instead of overlaying '55' with '65'.  The result at night was signs with horribly mis-matched numbers.

When the national 55 mph Speed Limit first took effect; many Speed Limit signs along I-95/MA 128 south of the Pike had 55 stickers placed on signs that were shorter in height than the original numerals (which was 60 at the time).  As a result, one could actually see 'traces' of the old 60 mph speed limit on those signs; many of them were still around until the mid-to-late 80s.

I'd forgotten about that one.  Be curious to know if anybody who got bagged for exceeding 60 tried to get out of a ticket on that basis.

[southshore720]

The ONLY Clearview I've seen in Southern New England is on I-84W in CT...Exit 21 in Waterbury.  Ironic how you have the Clearview there and a few exits east you have some of the oldest and most dilapidated signage in CT.  (Exits 23-25).

[PHLBOS]

The ONLY Clearview I've seen in Southern New England is on I-84W in CT...Exit 21 in Waterbury.  Ironic how you have the Clearview there and a few exits east you have some of the oldest and most dilapidated signage in CT.  (Exits 23-25).

I've seen those signs everytime on my return trips from New England.  Those were likely a 'one-off' replacement for possibly damaged existing signs (from an accident?).  The Clearview font was either applied for trial/experimental purposes or a fabrication mistake that was simply allowed to the added cost of replacing the lettering with the more standard fonts.

IIRC, there is one dual-BGS ground assembly in Spencer, MA (MA 9 & 49) that features the use of Clearview.  That was likely either experimental/trial usage or a 'one-off' replacement to replace the original signs that were likely damaged in an accident.  With isolated replacement signs, there's usually a greater chance of fabricators taking a 'few more liberties', if you will.

[roadman]

The ONLY Clearview I've seen in Southern New England is on I-84W in CT...Exit 21 in Waterbury.  Ironic how you have the Clearview there and a few exits east you have some of the oldest and most dilapidated signage in CT.  (Exits 23-25).

As Connecticut doesn't yet have FHWA interim approval for Clearview, it'll be interesting to see how long that sign lasts.

[shadyjay]

CT 9 NB at Exit 30 also has a clearview sign, IIRC. 

[PHLBOS]

The ONLY Clearview I've seen in Southern New England is on I-84W in CT...Exit 21 in Waterbury.  Ironic how you have the Clearview there and a few exits east you have some of the oldest and most dilapidated signage in CT.  (Exits 23-25).

As Connecticut doesn't yet have FHWA interim approval for Clearview, it'll be interesting to see how long that sign lasts.

IIRC, that sign's been there for at least 2 to 3 years.

[southshore720]

CT 9 NB at Exit 30 also has a clearview sign, IIRC.

WOW...you're right!  I just checked it out on Google maps.  I haven't been on that segment of CT 9 in forever.  I'm very curious about CT DOT's thought process for both of these Clearview specials...

[Beeper1]

CT is now starting to use Clearview on the directional LGSs on non-freeway routes as well.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

However, in our state (WI) local governments are free to use Clearview if they choose too. e.g. Eau Claire

This pisses me off more than statewide conversion to Clearview, actually, because it will result in inconsistency.  FHWA here, Clearview there.  Fuck that noise, ban it or convert statewide, but don't allow mix 'n matching on a city-by-city basis.

[mgk920]

http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/downloads/trafficMgmt/MASSMUTCD20120409.pdf

On page 61:

"Alternative fonts such as "Clearview"  shall not be permitted for use on legends on directional or street name signs for streets and highways within Massachusetts."

Now to get the other 49 states on the board.

Correction: 48 states.  While Wisconsin has not made it as official as Massachusetts, according to a meeting I was at with the state signing engineer, WisDOT's tests have ended and they will continue the use of the FHWA standard series fonts.

However, in our state (WI) local governments are free to use Clearview if they choose too. e.g. Eau Claire

From what I can tell, the only use of Clearview here in the Appleton area is on the Chamber of Commerce local area direction type signage.