Clearview banned in Massachusetts

[bugo]

http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/downloads/trafficMgmt/MASSMUTCD20120409.pdf

On page 61:

"Alternative fonts such as "Clearview"  shall not be permitted for use on legends on directional or street name signs for streets and highways within Massachusetts."

Now to get the other 49 states on the board.

[DaBigE]

http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/downloads/trafficMgmt/MASSMUTCD20120409.pdf

On page 61:

"Alternative fonts such as "Clearview"  shall not be permitted for use on legends on directional or street name signs for streets and highways within Massachusetts."

Now to get the other 49 states on the board.

Correction: 48 states.  While Wisconsin has not made it as official as Massachusetts, according to a meeting I was at with the state signing engineer, WisDOT's tests have ended and they will continue the use of the FHWA standard series fonts.

[on_wisconsin]

http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/downloads/trafficMgmt/MASSMUTCD20120409.pdf

On page 61:

"Alternative fonts such as "Clearview"  shall not be permitted for use on legends on directional or street name signs for streets and highways within Massachusetts."

Now to get the other 49 states on the board.

Correction: 48 states.  While Wisconsin has not made it as official as Massachusetts, according to a meeting I was at with the state signing engineer, WisDOT's tests have ended and they will continue the use of the FHWA standard series fonts.

However, in our state (WI) local governments are free to use Clearview if they choose too. e.g. Eau Claire

[Ian]

Several other states have also made it clear that they don't want to use it either. New Hampshire, for example, told me in a recent email that they aren't switching over, because it costs too much money for them for little effort. Kudos to them!

[qguy]

I never even remotely considered it before, but I may move to Massachusetts.

My son, who is 13 and has been a roadgeek seemingly from the womb, detests Clearview on an almost visceral level. Whenever he sees it (and that's with increasing frequency here in PA), he breathes "arrr" through clenched teeth and then mutters "Clearview" in mocking tones with a grimace on his face.

Funny thing is that I never briefed him on the relative merits of either font as I see it; he simply read up on it from various sources (including this forum) and came to his own conclusion.

Cracks me up every time.

[national highway 1]

Several other states have also made it clear that they don't want to use it either. New Hampshire, for example, told me in a recent email that they aren't switching over, because it costs too much money for them for little effort. Kudos to them!

Ditto that with Utah and Colorado. I've heard Nevada has been experimenting with a few signs on I-580.

[Takumi]

Good. Every new BGS in Virginia I see has Clearview and they're getting sloppier and sloppier with it. Here's hoping VDOT comes to its senses...oh wait

[NE2]

You know, being banned in Boston makes something more appealing to the masses...

[SidS1045]

http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/downloads/trafficMgmt/MASSMUTCD20120409.pdf

On page 61:

"Alternative fonts such as "Clearview” shall not be permitted for use on legends on directional or street name signs for streets and highways within Massachusetts."

Now to get the other 49 states on the board.

Now to get MassDCR (formerly the MDC) on board.

[SidS1045]

Also found this little gem in the Massachusetts Amendments (section 2E.31):

"Massachusetts will be changing all its interchange exit signs statewide to the reference location
numbering system, with the entire state highway system to be converted to the new numbers within
the next five to ten years. The Department will be updating the exit numbers to the reference-based
system on a route-by-route basis, after existing signs within a given highway corridor have been
updated during normal replacement."

[Alps]

Also found this little gem in the Massachusetts Amendments (section 2E.31):

"Massachusetts will be changing all its interchange exit signs statewide to the reference location
numbering system, with the entire state highway system to be converted to the new numbers within
the next five to ten years. The Department will be updating the exit numbers to the reference-based
system on a route-by-route basis, after existing signs within a given highway corridor have been
updated during normal replacement."

sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. even the mass pike? will interchanges 18-20 suddenly have one number?

[OracleUsr]

I figured Massachusetts would do it before New York (go to distance numbering).  They and Maine seem to be on the cutting edge of roadgeek technology.  Heck, Maine even has raised caps  on BGS' in some areas.

As for Clearview, I have the same disdain for it.  It looks like a kid drew the letters and in my opinion, it's not much clearer than the Roadgeek E(m) and E fonts to me.

[vdeane]

I don't mind clearview, as long as it's made to look good, which doesn't happen very often in the US, I admit.  Quebec does a nice job though.

sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. even the mass pike? will interchanges 18-20 suddenly have one number?

I would assume the Mass Pike is included, given that everything is managed by MassDOT now.

[PurdueBill]

I don't mind clearview, as long as it's made to look good, which doesn't happen very often in the US, I admit.  Quebec does a nice job though.

That's my feeling about Clearview too--there are so many examples of it being done poorly.  There are a couple "gems" of horrible Clearview near me that I need to get pics of--different sizes on the same sign so as to make the text stretch across the whole sign width, one line of microscopic all-caps Clearview where two lines of larger text could have been used to actually be readable, different kerning between the two lines, all within a couple miles of each other.

I wish that all places using it would follow the recommendation on the FAQ page (linked from the Illustrations thread) about all-caps text and numerals being set in FHWA lettering.  The Clearview numerals can be really ugly, and as it says on the FAQ, they were not really tested for legibility.

It's amazing how the interim approval for Clearview only is valid for dark text on a light background, but the makers/sellers of Clearview continue to show dark on light examples on their web site; they don't seem to mention that it's not approved for actual highway use.

On the subsequent topic (exit numbers) of this thread, it is somewhat surprising that Mass has gone along with it so soon (relative to what many expected); while it may still be a while before it actually happens, the change to mile-based exits will make an interesting divide between VT/NH and RI/CT which still have consecutive ("chronological"? ) numbers, and New York that may sometime change.  For quite some time, there had been a whole area that had consecutive numbers (NY, all of New England), and that is starting to fall apart.

[KEVIN_224]

Would that mean that Exit 9 in Sturbridge would eventually be Exit 78?

As for Clearview, it doesn't bother me that much. Please don't hate me for that.

[shadyjay]

The Department will be updating the exit numbers to the reference-based
system on a route-by-route basis, after existing signs within a given highway corridor have been
updated during normal replacement."

So what does that mean for the present I-93 signing projects underway?  Will I-93 be the first route in the state to go mile-based?  After present projects are completed, it will have all new signs from end to end (right?).  So makes sense. 

Or will they wait for I-91 signage to be replaced (within the next couple of years) and THAT will be the first road to go mile-based? 

[PurdueBill]

I'm betting it has in part something to do with the signs on the road all having exit tabs that do not overlap into the main sign.  For some time now, Mass exit tabs have actually overlapped into the main part of the sign, and that would make changing the exit numbers a little harder (although not impossible; see 1980s route 128 for example).  The new separate tabs with their own serial number coding will be a lot easier to deal with.

I wonder if Mass will go for Exit 0.  I would sure enjoy it, although I can't imagine it happening.

128 will be interesting.  They once changed its mileposting to have mile 0.000 where I-95 left (at old exit 30N/now exit 44B), which then wasn't the true divergence of 95 after the missing link in Peabody was closed, but then went back on it and now count the mileage from Canton.  So what will 128's new exit numbers be?  Continuation of those of 95?  (That could be confusing.)  Start at 0 in Peabody?  That may be the least confusing as there would be little, if any repetition of "Exit XX off 128" as miles 0-26 on I-95 are before it meets 128, and 128 north of where it leaves 95 won't need exit numbers higher than 22.

[OracleUsr]

Well, actually, isn't Mass trying to go to the separate tab anyway?  Last I saw they were, and it looks like their neighbor of Rhode Island is moving in that direction, too (especially in the Providence metro area)

[PurdueBill]

Well, actually, isn't Mass trying to go to the separate tab anyway?  Last I saw they were, and it looks like their neighbor of Rhode Island is moving in that direction, too (especially in the Providence metro area)

That's what I mean--changing old signs means dealing with the tab that overlaps the main sign; waiting for new installs before changing exit numbers avoids that.  Several states used to have tabs with a continuous border around the main sign and tab (RI, ME, PA, and OH, for example), but only those in Mass ever seemed to have so much overlap of the tab lettering onto the main sign area.  That is, one couldn't remove the tab easily because the lettering was attached to both the tab metal and the main sign metal.  Some 90s signs even had a much more visible overlap than some older ones; it always seemed that it was an effort to make the total area of the sign plus tab smaller.  You couldn't draw the extension of the main sign border underneath the exit tab without crossing through the exit tab lettering.





The new signage with more common tabs separated from the main sign with a border even have a separate inventory number for the tab, which will make it much easier to not only change the exit number but to change the whole tab if that's what they want to do.

[national highway 1]

You know, being banned in Boston makes something more appealing to the masses...

Haha... 

[agentsteel53]

Texas does Clearview pretty well for the most part.

it's too bad that Mass's verbiage prohibits all alternate fonts, including their classic late 20s custom font which was in heavy use until the 1980s, and is still occasionally installed.

[PHLBOS]

Also found this little gem in the Massachusetts Amendments (section 2E.31):

"Massachusetts will be changing all its interchange exit signs statewide to the reference location
numbering system, with the entire state highway system to be converted to the new numbers within
the next five to ten years. The Department will be updating the exit numbers to the reference-based
system on a route-by-route basis, after existing signs within a given highway corridor have been
updated during normal replacement."

sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. even the mass pike? will interchanges 18-20 suddenly have one number?

Great news regarding No use of Clearview. 

With regards to MA adopting mileage-based exit/interchange numbering: I am surprised that they didn't do when the Big Dig was nearing completion roughly a decade ago... particularly along I-93.  The change from the elevated Central Artery to the O'Neill Tunnel translated to the current gaps in I-93's sequential exit numbering.  The tunnel has less ramps than the old Artery.

That's what I mean--changing old signs means dealing with the tab that overlaps the main sign; waiting for new installs before changing exit numbers avoids that.  Several states used to have tabs with a continuous border around the main sign and tab (RI, ME, PA, and OH, for example), but only those in Mass ever seemed to have so much overlap of the tab lettering onto the main sign area.  That is, one couldn't remove the tab easily because the lettering was attached to both the tab metal and the main sign metal.  Some 90s signs even had a much more visible overlap than some older ones; it always seemed that it was an effort to make the total area of the sign plus tab smaller.  You couldn't draw the extension of the main sign border underneath the exit tab without crossing through the exit tab lettering.





The new signage with more common tabs separated from the main sign with a border even have a separate inventory number for the tab, which will make it much easier to not only change the exit number but to change the whole tab if that's what they want to do.

Looks like that I-95 South Exit sign off US 3 is a more recent replacement (from the US 3 widening project perhaps?).  IIRC, the previous sign, with the somewhat oversized button-copy 95, featured a more standard exit sign layout with one arrow placed on the right-hand side of the board.

Prior to the mid-80s, all lettering for BGS (regardless of whether they were button-copy or not) were either riveted or nailed to the signboard.  If a change was needed, one just simply removed the old numerals and rivited/nailed the replacement lettering or numerals.  As long as the update didn't involve a major change in width; it didn't matter too much what type or style exit tab was used.

However, by the time, I-93 and I-95 had their exit numbers changed to the current ones (1986-1987 respectively); MassDPW was using the current adhesive-mountings for all their lettering.  As a result, all the exit number changed involved either the  installation of new tabs or new numbers (in 'sticker' form) being placed on the old tabs.

Along I-95 north of 128, the DPW actually removed segments of the top white outline borders of its BGS signs (this part of 95 originally had no numbered exits) in order to have the then-newly erected exit tabs look like it was part of the orginal BGS (these exit tabs were centered on the top of the signs per the older DPW/MUTCD standards); though the shade of green and shinyness of the newer lettering were the dead give-away.  The signs in question were from the mid-70s and have all since been replaced with newer signs at least once (twice in some areas).

PurdueBill & Roadman, you might remember how the old 70s era 128 exit signs looked like; the height of the exit numerals was the same height as the exit text.

Old Boston Herald American shot from the Blizzard of '78 at MA 138 interchange along I-93 North/MA 128 South:

[mgk920]

Here in the Appleton area there are some Chamber of Commerce signs that appear to use Clearview for some of their text, but none else.  The new BGSes that are now being installed in the US 41/I-xx Construction Geek Zone™ are all FHWA.

Mike

[PurdueBill]

Looks like that I-95 South Exit sign off US 3 is a more recent replacement (from the US 3 widening project perhaps?).  IIRC, the previous sign, with the somewhat oversized button-copy 95, featured a more standard exit sign layout with one arrow placed on the right-hand side of the board.

Prior to the mid-80s, all lettering for BGS (regardless of whether they were button-copy or not) were either riveted or nailed to the signboard.  If a change was needed, one just simply removed the old numerals and rivited/nailed the replacement lettering or numerals.  As long as the update didn't involve a major change in width; it didn't matter too much what type or style exit tab was used.

However, by the time, I-93 and I-95 had their exit numbers changed to the current ones (1986-1987 respectively); MassDPW was using the current adhesive-mountings for all their lettering.  As a result, all the exit number changed involved either the  installation of new tabs or new numbers (in 'sticker' form) being placed on the old tabs.

Along I-95 north of 128, the DPW actually removed segments of the top white outline borders of its BGS signs (this part of 95 originally had no numbered exits) in order to have the then-newly erected exit tabs look like it was part of the orginal BGS (these exit tabs were centered on the top of the signs per the older DPW/MUTCD standards); though the shade of green and shinyness of the newer lettering were the dead give-away.  The signs in question were from the mid-70s and have all since been replaced with newer signs at least once (twice in some areas).

PurdueBill & Roadman, you might remember how the old 70s era 128 exit signs looked like; the height of the exit numerals was the same height as the exit text.

Old Boston Herald American shot from the Blizzard of '78 at MA 138 interchange along I-93 North/MA 128 South:

I find it interesting that there appears to be a perceptible difference in the width of the borders of the two signs on US 3; the newer sign on the right seems to have a slightly wider white border.  I wonder if it's an illusion or real?

I do recall the signs north of Peabody on I-95 before exit numbers; they were among the oldest "new-looking" signs out there when they were finally replaced.  I recall that southbound at Alfalfa Circle during the time that 95 SB was closed from there to Peabody during the construction of the final link to 128 and the use of the existing 95 SB to US 1 SB ramp as a left-exit for 95 NB from 1 NB that they even added an I-95 shield to the Exit 50 overheads such that they read US 1 - I-95 on the top line, and TO MA 62/114 on the next line, with square 114 shields.  As I recall, the bottom lines of advance signs said "Exit 1 mile" etc. even after the exit numbers were added--not much sense in bothering to remove the word "exit" and rearrange.

The Blizzard of 78 photo shows the old small characters on the exit tab as well as the old exit number that carried through from 128--what was Exit 64N off 128 SB is now Exit 2B off I-93 NB; I wonder if it will remain Exit 2 when things are numbered by mileage.  It might be worth it to fudge it if it's not perfectly supposed to be.  Looking at the exit numbers and mileage, it actually appears that Exits 1-16 could probably all keep their existing numbers with minimal fudging, if any.  That would sure make things a lot easier.

[bob7374]

"The Blizzard of 78 photo shows the old small characters on the exit tab as well as the old exit number that carried through from 128--what was Exit 64N off 128 SB is now Exit 2B off I-93 NB; I wonder if it will remain Exit 2 when things are numbered by mileage.  It might be worth it to fudge it if it's not perfectly supposed to be.  Looking at the exit numbers and mileage, it actually appears that Exits 1-16 could probably all keep their existing numbers with minimal fudging, if any.  That would sure make things a lot easier."

This appears to be the case, looking at the MassDOT interchange list as well. Technically, MA 138 should be 1B/C since its closer to the 1 mile marker, with I-95 at the end of I-93 South 1A. There appears to be a blank space in the new Exit 1 signs for just that purpose. Recalling the numbers for I-93 exits 1-20, hopefully, from a spreadsheet I don't have in front of me, the new (old) exit numbers would be: 1A(1), 1B/C (2A/B), 3(3), 4(4A), 4B/C(5A/B), 6(6), 7(7), 8(8), 9(9), 10(10), 11A/B (11A/B), 12(12), 13A(13), 13B(14), 14(15), 15(16), 16(18), and 17(20). This won't happen until at least the last I-93 sign contract is finished in March 2014.