Philadelphia Red Light Cameras: Safe or Dangerous?

[ilvny]

Do you think the red-light cameras in Philadelphia are making the roads safer or more dangerous?

I believe that the cameras are causing more accidents.  Drivers panic and either rush through the yellow light or stop suddenly to avoid the fine, which increases the risk of rear-ending.
http://www.photoenforced.com/philadelphia.html

A new camera will be installed at Byberry Road and Worthington Road, which I believe is going to make the already dangerous, heavily-traveled Y intersection worse.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/22554153/new-red-light-camera-at-dangerous-intersection

Article criticizing the red-light cameras
http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/philadelphia-weekly

[NE2]

Don't tailgate.

[vdeane]

It's possible to rear end somebody without tailgating if they slam on their brakes too fast (especially if your brake pads aren't new).

[cpzilliacus]

It's possible to rear end somebody without tailgating if they slam on their brakes too fast (especially if your brake pads aren't new).

I have seen that happen at a red light camera (since removed) on H Street, N.E. in the District of  Columbia.

The rear-ending vehicle was driven by a uniformed officer of the Metropolitan Police Department (the D.C. municipal police force), which may be one of the reasons why the camera is now gone.

[PHLBOS]

It's possible to rear end somebody without tailgating if they slam on their brakes too fast (especially if your brake pads aren't new).

I have seen that happen at a red light camera (since removed) on H Street, N.E. in the District of  Columbia.

The rear-ending vehicle was driven by a uniformed officer of the Metropolitan Police Department (the D.C. municipal police force), which may be one of the reasons why the camera is now gone.

Oops. 

All kidding aside, the red-light cameras are a classic example of the cure being worse than the disease.  In the case of the Roosevelt Blvd. (US 1) in Northeast Philly, where most of the Philly traffic light cameras are erected; it is absolutely insane to have a situation where pedestrians need to cross 12 lanes of vehicular traffic at grade just to cross the street.  Side bar: many of the crashes involved vehicles running red lights and hitting (in some cases killing) pedestrians while crossing the Blvd. intersections.

One solution for the Roosevelt Blvd. intersections would be erect pedestrian (& bicycle) overpasses, thereby eliminating the crossing hazard.

As far as other red light running crashes involving vehicles hitting vehicles; one solution would be to increase the yellow time and erect lighted RED SIGNAL AHEAD (the RED portion would flash when the upcoming signal is about to turn red) several feet prior to the intersection.

Example of such sign:

[SidS1045]

one solution would be to increase the yellow time and erect lighted RED SIGNAL AHEAD (the RED portion would flash when the upcoming signal is about to turn red) several feet prior to the intersection.

Example of such sign:

Increasing the yellow time at a camera intersection strikes me as being prudent traffic engineering.  However, these cameras (usually sold to municipalities as money-making ventures by for-profit companies) are seldom about safety and more often about generating revenue, so the all-too-often used practice is to shorten the yellow interval, with the predictable result that read-end collisions increase in number.  The collisions, of course, are irrelevant.  One cannot under any circumstances stanch the flow of revenue.

[ilvny]

It is absolutely insane to have a situation where pedestrians need to cross 12 lanes of vehicular traffic at grade just to cross the street. 

I agree with that statement.  Several new traffic lights have been erected, which slows down vehicular traffic.  The roads at those intersections only connect to one set of outer lanes, so traffic cannot cross Roosevelt Blvd. or turn left.  I believe they did it so pedestrians could cross at a traffic light, but it's very dangerous to cross 12 lanes of traffic even with a signal.  I agree with your idea to build pedestrian and bike overpasses so they don't have to cross the busy highway.  There's a pedestrian overpass near the Oxford Circle and St. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church.  More overpasses like that should be built.

[jeffandnicole]

There's a pedestrian overpass near the Oxford Circle and St. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church.  More overpasses like that should be built.

And how often is it used?

A ped overpass works when there's no other way to cross the highway, such as a large median jersey barrier with fencing on top, etc.  (and even then, that doesn't stop some people from trying).  Since the intersections provide easy access to the other side, many people will just take their chances and cross, rather than taking the long way up and over the ped overpass.  And those ped overpasses need ramps or elevators as well, so they're not cheap to build...especially across 12 lanes of roadway.

[bzakharin]

Do you realize how annoying it is from a pedestrian's perspective to have a freeway or similar cut off your choices, making you go around and find an underpass? I once had to seek alternate residence because I wanted to live within walking distance from work? The original apartment was really close, right across the Garden State Parkway from work, but the nearest available crossing was just too far away. There's no way you can cross the Parkway, but a slightly smaller road like Roosevelt blvd, can you blame people for trying to get where they're going faster?

[vdeane]

Maybe they could, you know, investigate such things before making a life-changing decision such as renting an apartment?

[PHLBOS]

Do you realize how annoying it is from a pedestrian's perspective to have a freeway or similar cut off your choices, making you go around and find an underpass? I once had to seek alternate residence because I wanted to live within walking distance from work? The original apartment was really close, right across the Garden State Parkway from work, but the nearest available crossing was just too far away. There's no way you can cross the Parkway, but a slightly smaller road like Roosevelt blvd, can you blame people for trying to get where they're going faster?

One needs to keep in mind that roads like the Garden State Parkway (per your example) and Roosevelt Blvd. have been around for decades.  This isn't some new road or highway just recently constructed and opened to traffic.  In many instances, these roads existed prior to many (though not all) residential and business developments.

Maybe they could, you know, investigate such things before making a life-changing decision such as renting an apartment?

Agree 100%.  It's another case of caveat emptor (let the buyer(renter) beware).

[Brandon]

It's possible to rear end somebody without tailgating if they slam on their brakes too fast (especially if your brake pads aren't new).

I have seen that happen at a red light camera (since removed) on H Street, N.E. in the District of  Columbia.

The rear-ending vehicle was driven by a uniformed officer of the Metropolitan Police Department (the D.C. municipal police force), which may be one of the reasons why the camera is now gone.

Reminds me of the red light cameras used by the Village of Bolingbrook, Illinois.  The cameras were installed at a few intersections.  A couple of years later, the mayor got caught by one of them turning right on red.  The cameras all were removed within a couple of weeks.  The reason claimed was that they had served their purpose.  The real reason?  The mayor got caught.

[jeffandnicole]

Do you realize how annoying it is from a pedestrian's perspective to have a freeway or similar cut off your choices, making you go around and find an underpass? I once had to seek alternate residence because I wanted to live within walking distance from work? The original apartment was really close, right across the Garden State Parkway from work, but the nearest available crossing was just too far away. There's no way you can cross the Parkway, but a slightly smaller road like Roosevelt blvd, can you blame people for trying to get where they're going faster?

One needs to keep in mind that roads like the Garden State Parkway (per your example) and Roosevelt Blvd. have been around for decades.  This isn't some new road or highway just recently constructed and opened to traffic.  In many instances, these roads existed prior to many (though not all) residential and business developments.

Maybe they could, you know, investigate such things before making a life-changing decision such as renting an apartment?

Agree 100%.  It's another case of caveat emptor (let the buyer(renter) beware).

Very similiar to those that purchase a house by a highway that has been there for decades, then  they complain to the highway authority about putting up a sound wall.  In almost all cases, the highway authority will ignore them.

[kphoger]

Don't tailgate.

If every driver did everything right, then accidents wouldn't happen.  But the OP refers to reality.  Are accidents more likely or less likely in the real world?

There's a pedestrian overpass near the Oxford Circle and St. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church.  More overpasses like that should be built.

And how often is it used?

A ped overpass works when there's no other way to cross the highway, such as a large median jersey barrier with fencing on top, etc.  (and even then, that doesn't stop some people from trying).  Since the intersections provide easy access to the other side, many people will just take their chances and cross, rather than taking the long way up and over the ped overpass.  And those ped overpasses need ramps or elevators as well, so they're not cheap to build...especially across 12 lanes of roadway.

I've never seen a ped tunnel with ramp access; how often is that done?  The reason I ask is that the ramps wouldn't have to have as much elevation change as a ped bridge's ramps.

[deathtopumpkins]

There's a pedestrian tunnel underneath US 1 just east of Bath, ME with ramps: http://goo.gl/maps/4QWdm

[jeffandnicole]

Don't tailgate.

If every driver did everything right, then accidents wouldn't happen.  But the OP refers to reality.  Are accidents more likely or less likely in the real world?

There's a pedestrian overpass near the Oxford Circle and St. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church.  More overpasses like that should be built.

And how often is it used?

A ped overpass works when there's no other way to cross the highway, such as a large median jersey barrier with fencing on top, etc.  (and even then, that doesn't stop some people from trying).  Since the intersections provide easy access to the other side, many people will just take their chances and cross, rather than taking the long way up and over the ped overpass.  And those ped overpasses need ramps or elevators as well, so they're not cheap to build...especially across 12 lanes of roadway.

I've never seen a ped tunnel with ramp access; how often is that done?  The reason I ask is that the ramps wouldn't have to have as much elevation change as a ped bridge's ramps.

Any new ped crossing (over or under) must comply with ADA requirements.

[Duke87]

One solution for the Roosevelt Blvd. intersections would be erect pedestrian (& bicycle) overpasses, thereby eliminating the crossing hazard.

The problem with this is that then you make the pedestrians have to climb up and down, which for some people who are old, handicapped, or out of shape is difficult or at least annoying. From a functional perspective a grade separated crossing is more convenient if the walkway is level and the road dips down for an underpass. Of course, that's more expensive and starts to look like building a freeway (which in Roosevelt Blvd's case wouldn't be a terrible idea, but it's never going to happen of course...)

[PHLBOS]

The problem with this is that then you make the pedestrians have to climb up and down, which for some people who are old, handicapped, or out of shape is difficult or at least annoying.

And is crossing 12 lanes of traffic (much of which is going at 40-50 mph) any better?

From a functional perspective a grade separated crossing is more convenient if the walkway is level and the road dips down for an underpass. Of course, that's more expensive and starts to look like building a freeway (which in Roosevelt Blvd's case wouldn't be a terrible idea, but it's never going to happen of course...)

Ah, Northeast Philly's Big Dig.

[silverback1065]

isn't this more of a revenue thing than a safety thing? 

[Brandon]

isn't this more of a revenue thing than a safety thing? 

Yes.  Red light cameras are marketed as revenue generators for municipalities.

[silverback1065]

Just like most speeding tickets. 

[Alps]

The problem with this is that then you make the pedestrians have to climb up and down, which for some people who are old, handicapped, or out of shape is difficult or at least annoying.

And is crossing 12 lanes of traffic (much of which is going at 40-50 mph) any better?

From a functional perspective a grade separated crossing is more convenient if the walkway is level and the road dips down for an underpass. Of course, that's more expensive and starts to look like building a freeway (which in Roosevelt Blvd's case wouldn't be a terrible idea, but it's never going to happen of course...)

Ah, Northeast Philly's Big Dig.

I know this is getting slightly OT, but I've always wondered how much effort it would really take to grade-separate the inner Roosevelt Blvd. lanes. Tear up the grass medians, shift the lanes to one side, build in the middle, and ultimately you'd have a slip ramp system between signals.

[SidS1045]

isn't this more of a revenue thing than a safety thing? 

See reply #5.

[PHLBOS]

isn't this more of a revenue thing than a safety thing? 

See reply #5.

In most instances, red-light cameras are marketed as a safety measure; but in reality, it's a revenue enhancer.