Traffic deaths up in cities that turn off red-light cameras

[kalvado]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

And actually you may be plain wrong after all.

YELLOW A yellow light means the traffic signal is about to turn red. Stop if you can do so safely. A vehicle may clear an intersection on a red light, if the vehicle entered the intersection while the signal was yellow; but it is against the law to enter an intersection after the light turns red.

From KY driver manual, p.8 (p.15 in pdf file) 2012 version, http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/2012_ky_drivers_manual_op.pdf

[jeffandnicole]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

You mean there's no law regarding obstruction of traffic in Illinois?

I'm sure there's no problem entering the intersection as long as the light is yellow, as long as you can reasonably complete your movement thru the intersection soon after the light turns red.  But if you're sitting in the intersection and can't move because the roadway is blocked beyond the intersection, then your impeding traffic flow, which is definitely a violation.

[kalvado]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

NY writes "blocking the box" tickets. Law is "no person shall drive a vehicle into such intersection, [..] unless there is adequate space on the opposite side of the intersection to accommodate the vehicle".

[SidS1045]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

In Massachusetts you must stop for a yellow light "if it is safe."  If you're already stopped for some reason, and the light turns yellow, you cannot enter the intersection.  (Source:  https://www.massrmv.com/Portals/30/docs/dmanual/chapter4.pdf)

[hbelkins]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

And actually you may be plain wrong after all.

YELLOW A yellow light means the traffic signal is about to turn red. Stop if you can do so safely. A vehicle may clear an intersection on a red light, if the vehicle entered the intersection while the signal was yellow; but it is against the law to enter an intersection after the light turns red.

From KY driver manual, p.8 (p.15 in pdf file) 2012 version, http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/2012_ky_drivers_manual_op.pdf

Then, that's new since I last saw a paper copy of the driver's manual, which admittedly was several years ago.

But that still doesn't change the fact that if you're in the intersection when the light turns red and the intersection is equipped with a red light camera, the camera is most likely going to capture that and you're going to be issued a ticket.

[kalvado]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

And actually you may be plain wrong after all.

YELLOW A yellow light means the traffic signal is about to turn red. Stop if you can do so safely. A vehicle may clear an intersection on a red light, if the vehicle entered the intersection while the signal was yellow; but it is against the law to enter an intersection after the light turns red.

From KY driver manual, p.8 (p.15 in pdf file) 2012 version, http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/2012_ky_drivers_manual_op.pdf

Then, that's new since I last saw a paper copy of the driver's manual, which admittedly was several years ago.

But that still doesn't change the fact that if you're in the intersection when the light turns red and the intersection is equipped with a red light camera, the camera is most likely going to capture that and you're going to be issued a ticket.

In ideal world, camera should be OK with you moving through the intersection on red if you entered it during yellow phase. Most likely you are referring to a provision which prohibits being stopped within the intersection during red phase ("Block the box" in NY-speak).
Should be easy for camera to distinguish if a reference picture is always taken the moment light turns red. Some extra work, sure... 
Interestingly enough, wordy descriptions of red-yellow-green seem identical in KY and NY. Are those clipped from MUTCD?

[Brandon]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

You mean there's no law regarding obstruction of traffic in Illinois?

The obstructer would be the person impeding the person turning and preventing him/her from completing his/her turn.

[jakeroot]

But that still doesn't change the fact that if you're in the intersection when the light turns red and the intersection is equipped with a red light camera, the camera is most likely going to capture that and you're going to be issued a ticket.

The cameras that I've seen use the stop line as their point of reference. The only time that you can receive a ticket is if you cross the stop line without stopping first (such as for right turn on red).

There is a left turn that a make on a near-daily basis. The intersection has cameras on all four quadrants. When turning left, because the intersection has pro/per left turns, I pull forward past the stop line, and finish the turn, usually on red (because there's often a huge amount of oncoming cars). In the three years that I've been turning left there, I've never been issued a ticket. If I ever did, I'd take it to court, and very carefully explain to then that you can't run a red light if you crossed the stop line on green or amber.

[hm insulators]

Didn't Mississippi outlaw red light cameras state-wide? If so, then they probably could've drawn their study from the places in Mississippi that used to have red light cameras...

Arizona outlawed them.

[jeffandnicole]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

You mean there's no law regarding obstruction of traffic in Illinois?

The obstructer would be the person impeding the person turning and preventing him/her from completing his/her turn.

No.  Because you may not even be turning.  If the street you're trying to access, whether it be straight across or the cross street, is filled with traffic, you may not be able to complete your movement thru the intersection.  Who are you going to blame....the guy 10 cars ahead of you stopped at another traffic light?

YOU are the one obstructing traffic if you're in the middle of the intersection.  You can't control the actions of other drivers...you can only control yourself.  If there are multiple people in the intersection, then you are all obstructing. 

[Brian556]

Quote from vdane:

Granted, I do not take the view of "the law is the law is the law"; I'm a proponent of taking in the whole context of the situation and view the law as a framework for setting consequences for when someone does something that harmed someone (or could reasonably be expected to hard someone).  For example, I wouldn't bother with punishing someone for making a rolling right on red when there are no pedestrians or conflicting vehicles nearby, but if they failed to yield to a pedestrian and hit them or had a near miss, they would be permanently banned from operating anything with an engine in it and be arrested on the spot.  Basically, I'd be lenient to those who technically violate the law but aren't causing problems, but be draconian on anyone who did cause harm (or came close).

That's my exact philosophy.

And I agree that all-red clearance phases should be mandatory, esp on roads with speed limits over 45. At one signalized intersection on US 72 in South Pittsburg, TN, trucks come blasting thru 3 -4 seconds after their light goes red, and that's probably cause their yellow is way too short. US 72 in that area is a high-speed divided highway. They are really dumb when it comes to traffic control and signage in general in Tennessee. They are not even smart enough to realize that you are supposed to take down the stop signs when you signalize an intersection.

[Brandon]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

You mean there's no law regarding obstruction of traffic in Illinois?

The obstructer would be the person impeding the person turning and preventing him/her from completing his/her turn.

No.  Because you may not even be turning.  If the street you're trying to access, whether it be straight across or the cross street, is filled with traffic, you may not be able to complete your movement thru the intersection.  Who are you going to blame....the guy 10 cars ahead of you stopped at another traffic light?

YOU are the one obstructing traffic if you're in the middle of the intersection.  You can't control the actions of other drivers...you can only control yourself.  If there are multiple people in the intersection, then you are all obstructing. 

No, you're not.  The cop will give out the ticket to the person going straight through who is blocking the movements of other people, the one turning left and those who are on the cross street.

[kalvado]

Quote from vdane:

Granted, I do not take the view of "the law is the law is the law"; I'm a proponent of taking in the whole context of the situation and view the law as a framework for setting consequences for when someone does something that harmed someone (or could reasonably be expected to hard someone).  For example, I wouldn't bother with punishing someone for making a rolling right on red when there are no pedestrians or conflicting vehicles nearby, but if they failed to yield to a pedestrian and hit them or had a near miss, they would be permanently banned from operating anything with an engine in it and be arrested on the spot.  Basically, I'd be lenient to those who technically violate the law but aren't causing problems, but be draconian on anyone who did cause harm (or came close).

That's my exact philosophy.

And I agree that all-red clearance phases should be mandatory, esp on roads with speed limits over 45. At one signalized intersection on US 72 in South Pittsburg, TN, trucks come blasting thru 3 -4 seconds after their light goes red, and that's probably cause their yellow is way too short. US 72 in that area is a high-speed divided highway. They are really dumb when it comes to traffic control and signage in general in Tennessee. They are not even smart enough to realize that you are supposed to take down the stop signs when you signalize an intersection.

Problem is that those very-low-risk things tend to accumulate. Assuming (just a random assumption) that a turn on red without stopping has a 1 in 100 thousand injury accident probability. Driver does it 3 times a day, 300 days a year, 40 years of driving... And that means 1 injury per 2.5 drivers for just one maneuver.
We are really talking about regulations which aim at reducing accident probability from 1 in 100 k to 1 in 10 million..

[jeffandnicole]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

You mean there's no law regarding obstruction of traffic in Illinois?

The obstructer would be the person impeding the person turning and preventing him/her from completing his/her turn.

No.  Because you may not even be turning.  If the street you're trying to access, whether it be straight across or the cross street, is filled with traffic, you may not be able to complete your movement thru the intersection.  Who are you going to blame....the guy 10 cars ahead of you stopped at another traffic light?

YOU are the one obstructing traffic if you're in the middle of the intersection.  You can't control the actions of other drivers...you can only control yourself.  If there are multiple people in the intersection, then you are all obstructing. 

No, you're not.  The cop will give out the ticket to the person going straight through who is blocking the movements of other people, the one turning left and those who are on the cross street.

You clearly aren't getting it. I'm saying the street is filled with traffic and you can't get on it. There is no opposing traffic in the intersection. It leaves you stuck in the intersection.

That's the whole premise behind the Don't Block The Box rules and signage in cities.

[kalvado]

It's not illegal to enter on a yellow, so I have no qualms doing so.

Not sure how it is in other states, but the Kentucky driver's manual used to explicitly state that it was illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red. Doesn't matter if you entered on yellow and the light turned red while you were passing through it, or if you had pulled up past the stop bar to make a left turn on a permitted green (or I guess now a FYA). You're breaking the law either way.

In Illinois, you can sit in the intersection all day till it clears after the signal has turned red.  As long as your front wheels cross the stop line on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.

You mean there's no law regarding obstruction of traffic in Illinois?

The obstructer would be the person impeding the person turning and preventing him/her from completing his/her turn.

No.  Because you may not even be turning.  If the street you're trying to access, whether it be straight across or the cross street, is filled with traffic, you may not be able to complete your movement thru the intersection.  Who are you going to blame....the guy 10 cars ahead of you stopped at another traffic light?

YOU are the one obstructing traffic if you're in the middle of the intersection.  You can't control the actions of other drivers...you can only control yourself.  If there are multiple people in the intersection, then you are all obstructing. 

No, you're not.  The cop will give out the ticket to the person going straight through who is blocking the movements of other people, the one turning left and those who are on the cross street.

You clearly aren't getting it. I'm saying the street is filled with traffic and you can't get on it. There is no opposing traffic in the intersection. It leaves you stuck in the intersection.

That's the whole premise behind the Don't Block The Box rules and signage in cities.

Blocking the box - at the ultimate limit

[Duke87]

But that still doesn't change the fact that if you're in the intersection when the light turns red and the intersection is equipped with a red light camera, the camera is most likely going to capture that and you're going to be issued a ticket.

Depends on how the camera is designed. Quite a few red light cameras are triggered not by the presence of a vehicle in the intersection while the light is red, but rather by a vehicle approaching the intersection above a certain speed while the light is red, where it assumes based on how fast the vehicle is going that it is about to run the red light.

I know for a fact that NYC's red light cameras work like this. If you get a ticket from one, it will feature two photos: one of your car with the front bumper behind the stop line while the light is red, and another of your car in the intersection while the light is red. It is not possible to take the first photo unless the camera triggers before the vehicle enters the intersection, so it therefore must be designed to do this. And it is necessary to have both photos in order to prove that the light was red when the vehicle entered the intersection - the second photo alone only proves that the vehicle was passing through the intersection while the light was red, which is not illegal.

This means two things:
1) If you are stopped in the intersection when the light turns red, the camera will not trigger. You may (depends on if you are turning or going straight) be guilty of blocking the box, but this is a different offense from running a red light and state law does not permit automated enforcement of it.
2) It is possible to trigger the camera without actually running the red light if you approach the intersection relatively fast and then brake hard enough to stop behind the line. I triggered a camera doing exactly this once, though I never got a ticket in the mail from it. Presumably the individual reviewing the citations generated by the camera flagged it as a false positive and threw it out.

[vdeane]

Looks like the "study" was a complete sham: http://thenewspaper.com/news/50/5015.asp

[SidS1045]

Looks like the "study" was a complete sham: http://thenewspaper.com/news/50/5015.asp

As I stated in reply #2:

IIHS is a long-time shill for the insurance industry, and never met a scheme to bilk motorists out of their money that they didn't like.

They aren't even particularly subtle: "...after adjusting for other factors..."  Yeah, right.

[vdeane]

Looks like the "study" was a complete sham: http://thenewspaper.com/news/50/5015.asp

As I stated in reply #2:

IIHS is a long-time shill for the insurance industry, and never met a scheme to bilk motorists out of their money that they didn't like.

They aren't even particularly subtle: "...after adjusting for other factors..."  Yeah, right.

As the article shows, it is MUCH WORSE than "after adjusting for other factors".  They aren't even comparing apples to oranges, much less apples... more like apples to broccoli (they're comparing accident rates in cities with red light cameras to cities that never had red light cameras, not even looking at intersections or what kind of accident it was).  Plus now we have PROOF.

[SidS1045]

As the article shows, it is MUCH WORSE than "after adjusting for other factors".  They aren't even comparing apples to oranges, much less apples... more like apples to broccoli (they're comparing accident rates in cities with red light cameras to cities that never had red light cameras, not even looking at intersections or what kind of accident it was).  Plus now we have PROOF.

You missed my point.  I was implying that those "other factors" were basically anything IIHS wished to fudge to make the numbers come out in favor of red-light-camera thievery, up to, including and far beyond making asinine comparisons.

I have never trusted anything IIHS has to say about anything, and this only feeds my distrust.

[jeffandnicole]

As the article shows, it is MUCH WORSE than "after adjusting for other factors".  They aren't even comparing apples to oranges, much less apples... more like apples to broccoli (they're comparing accident rates in cities with red light cameras to cities that never had red light cameras, not even looking at intersections or what kind of accident it was).  Plus now we have PROOF.

You missed my point.  I was implying that those "other factors" were basically anything IIHS wished to fudge to make the numbers come out in favor of red-light-camera thievery, up to, including and far beyond making asinine comparisons.

That's what she said.  She wasn't agreeing with IIHS. 

[kphoger]

That's what she said.

That threw me off.  I kept trying to read your next sentence as a terrible joke, but it just wasn't making sense as sexual innuendo.

Then I realized.