The Interstate's forgotten code

[Max Rockatansky]

I was amused at the negative reaction the Los Angeles city council had regarding getting US 66 instead of 60.  They really wanted the prestige of a "major" X0 Route and didn't think US 66 was going be anything special. The documents are in the AASHTO database and are worth a read.

[GaryV]

This also brings to mind the 1926-era discussions about what that LA-to-Chicago route number would be, initially US 60 and then eventually the iconic US 66

If I recall, that was because KY insisted they deserved a major (ends in 0) route. So they swapped 60 from Chicago to LA with 66, and KY got their desired number. That didn't make the route through KY any more important though.

[Max Rockatansky]

This also brings to mind the 1926-era discussions about what that LA-to-Chicago route number would be, initially US 60 and then eventually the iconic US 66

If I recall, that was because KY insisted they deserved a major (ends in 0) route. So they swapped 60 from Chicago to LA with 66, and KY got their desired number. That didn't make the route through KY any more important though.

Probably did help get 60 rapidly extended through the county though.

[SEWIGuy]

I recall hearing that the US Highway system was set up in a grid to eliminate fighting over which states or cities would get numbers that were somehow preferred. That worked well enough, so that when the Interstate System was proposed they chose to use the same grid-type system.

This is one of the more logical reasons I've heard for the grid system.

It's fascinating how the "major" ranking of interstates was emphasized somewhat in the 1956 initial assignments (which led to Dallas getting the ultra-short I-45 and I-30) - but as time has gone on and those numbers already are pretty much stratified, the 2di itself of any sort, regardless of final digit, is now the prestige-seeking brand for states/politicians/business leaders/etc.

(This also brings to mind the 1926-era discussions about what that LA-to-Chicago route number would be, initially US 60 and then eventually the iconic US 66)

Which in retrospect, was really silly. The prestige of a city is not indicated by the number of the highway that serves it.

[TheStranger]

Which in retrospect, was really silly. The prestige of a city is not indicated by the number of the highway that serves it.

In concept, I agree...in practice, it leads to how badly some cities/states want Interstate designations even when they already have a freeway going there!

(i.e. Fresno still already has reached 550K people due to growth over time AND also has a multi-freeway network, even with 99 being a state route since 1964, and I-5 being rerouted away from that city ca. 1958 in favor of the West Side alignment)

Obviously there are local/regional biases to this (i.e. the Bay Area being strong on freeway revolts and California being stingy about getting newer eligible routes signed as Interstate vs. Texas/North Carolina chasing every Interstate designation there is), just interesting that the mentality has evolved into something similar in this era, particularly with North Carolina viewing almost any new freeway project or renovation (looking at you, I-777) as a reason to have the red-white-blue shield added on.

But there's an obvious thought here:

Oakland has I-80, I-880, I-580 and I-980 but does that make it more prestigious/thriving than say, Austin which only has I-35 (but also has had multiple US route and state route freeways/tollways like 183 and MoPac)?

The real-world effects of the roads are rarely numbering-related, expanding on what you've noted.  It's more "is the traffic going here and is that traffic beneficial", like the whole "I-40 bypassed old Route 66 roadside towns" effect.

[Max Rockatansky]

At this point Fresno is more notable in the road fandom due to the lack of Interstates.  Why a lot of you want to see that changed is beyond me.

[SEWIGuy]

Which in retrospect, was really silly. The prestige of a city is not indicated by the number of the highway that serves it.

In concept, I agree...in practice, it leads to how badly some cities/states want Interstate designations even when they already have a freeway going there!

(i.e. Fresno still already has reached 550K people due to growth over time AND also has a multi-freeway network, even with 99 being a state route since 1964, and I-5 being rerouted away from that city ca. 1958 in favor of the West Side alignment)

Obviously there are local/regional biases to this (i.e. the Bay Area being strong on freeway revolts and California being stingy about getting newer eligible routes signed as Interstate vs. Texas/North Carolina chasing every Interstate designation there is), just interesting that the mentality has evolved into something similar in this era, particularly with North Carolina viewing almost any new freeway project or renovation (looking at you, I-777) as a reason to have the red-white-blue shield added on.

But there's an obvious thought here:

Oakland has I-80, I-880, I-580 and I-980 but does that make it more prestigious/thriving than say, Austin which only has I-35 (but also has had multiple US route and state route freeways/tollways like 183 and MoPac)?

The real-world effects of the roads are rarely numbering-related, expanding on what you've noted.  It's more "is the traffic going here and is that traffic beneficial", like the whole "I-40 bypassed old Route 66 roadside towns" effect.

I actually understand why having an interstate makes sense. That is something that can be marketed to potential businesses, etc. it carries an amount of prestige to is.

The number of that interstate however doesn't make difference. I can see a 2di being more meaningful than a 3di however.

[Max Rockatansky]

Hence the I-99 concept I came up with.  No weirder than I-238 and it doesn't require a bunch of legislative nonsense on the state level to renumber a bunch of California State Routes.

[TheStranger]

I actually understand why having an interstate makes sense. That is something that can be marketed to potential businesses, etc. it carries an amount of prestige to is.

The number of that interstate however doesn't make difference. I can see a 2di being more meaningful than a 3di however.

Part of why the concept of "interstates as prestigious" in other states fascinates me is how little this applies to California, for several historic reasons:

- Much of the Interstate freeway network in the cities was not built originally as such, this is very true in for Los Angeles (I-5 south of LA was originally built as US 101, I-10 east of downtown was built as US 60/70/99) but also appears in San Diego, and Oakland (I-80 was US 40, I-580 was US 50, and I-880 was Route 17).  I-80 in San Francisco is basically a short connector to a bridge, after the portion continuing west of the Central Freeway got nixed (a bit more on that later).

- The most overtly opposed projects during the freeway revolt era were Interstates: I-480 and the western I-80 extension in San Francisco as well as the I-280 alignment through the Inner Sunset and Golden Gate Park; also the I-80 realignment in Sacramento.  While the canceled 710 tunnel between 210 and 10 was slated to be a state route, it is an extension of an Interstate designation (though the South Pasadena gap had been proposed to be connected as far back as the 1960s).

- Since California had an extensive history of US route freeways between 1943-1956, along with segments of state routes 17 (now I-880), 18 (freeway portions now I-215 and Route 91), 11 (now I-110), and 15 (now I-710), the Interstate designation does not have the "this is a limited access route, and everything else isn't" reputation here.  This is probably aided by the fact 101 is still a critical urban route in the Bay Area and from Santa Barbara to downtown Los Angeles, and also somewhat ironically by the 1964 renumbering, where former US routes became important state route freeways (60 and 91, but especially 99).

- Similar to how Phoenix built out its highway network via state route freeways, San Diego's web of connecting highways was mostly state-funded and state-designated - this is notable as the one major region that had the smallest impact from any sort of freeway revolt, with only short spurs 252 (the most controversial), 157, and 171 canceled.  The region has only 4 interstates in total (5, 8, 15, 805), plus a fourth route eligible for Interstate designation but not signed as such at present (905). 

- Interstate designation does not at all mean the route is up to modern standards, due to the above history: compare I-80 along former US 40/50 in San Francisco, to any of the Orange County tollways or to the US 101 Presidio Parkway elsewhere in SF.  I-5 in Norwalk for years was definitely less of a modern freeway than US 101 heading west towards Sherman Oaks.

- Though I-5 is part of the fastest route from the Bay Area to LA, it is not a single-number route between the two regions, in part due to the redesignation of what had been I-5W.  The only single-number routes that go directly from the Bay to SoCal thus are 1 and 101, both of which are culturally more iconic than I-5 ever has been.

- US 101 also passes through one of the most world-famous sections of Los Angeles, directly into Hollywood on its namesake stretch.  And that same designation (along with Route 1) travels the equally renowned Golden Gate Bridge further north!

[vdeane]

Which in retrospect, was really silly. The prestige of a city is not indicated by the number of the highway that serves it.

Get a time machine and tell that to Minneapolis/St. Paul and Dallas/Fort Worth.  Maybe we could have eradicated suffixes before Texas lawmakers got the idea to add more of them.

[Scott5114]

The interstate code is forgotten, because it's just a neat order and actually useless on the ground (this 3di is even, so I'll be able to return to the parent - but where? Is it a short cut/time-saver, or is it a long way around that takes time and is really busy too).

I find that the grid helps lend a sense of place when traveling and that numbers from outside the local part of the grid where I live feel exotic.  I do question the 3di rules, though, especially as states are consistent as to whether an even 2di needs to return to its parent or whether just connecting two interstates period is enough.

So...the grid is good for feelings? That's not a good reason to have a grid.

1. A waffle iron is a grid
2. A waffle iron makes waffles
3. Waffles are tasty
4. Tasty waffles make you feel good
5. Ergo a grid is good for feelings

[Max Rockatansky]

Mmmmmm...tasty highway grid waffles. 

[Scott5114]

Mmmmmm...tasty highway grid waffles. 

I-30 and I-45 made me get syrup everywhere

[hbelkins]

Which in retrospect, was really silly. The prestige of a city is not indicated by the number of the highway that serves it.

True. Louisville has an x0 and an x1, and it's still a dumpy sewer pit. 

[dantheman]

This actually makes me ask:

We're used to the nationwide grids of the US and Interstate routes.  Are there any other countries who use a similar approach with their national route numbering?

Yes, India does.

Europe's E-road network does too, although they use some 1xx 3-digit numbers in place of 2-digit numbers because they ran out of numbers as the network went east. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network

[kurumi]

This actually makes me ask:

We're used to the nationwide grids of the US and Interstate routes.  Are there any other countries who use a similar approach with their national route numbering?

South Korea; both the grid and the route markers resemble our interstates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_in_South_Korea

[TheStranger]

This actually makes me ask:

We're used to the nationwide grids of the US and Interstate routes.  Are there any other countries who use a similar approach with their national route numbering?

South Korea; both the grid and the route markers resemble our interstates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_in_South_Korea

What's interesting to me is that the roads had all been numbered (by order of when they were built) before 2001.  Was there any impetus for the reorganizing into a grid system?

Also notable how the individual states in the US have not attempted any sort of route renumbering/rationalization since about the 1980s.  Would the closest thing to that in North America that has occurred since be Ontario's route downloading?

[vdeane]

Would the closest thing to that in North America that has occurred since be Ontario's route downloading?

I'm not sure that I'd count that, given that no renumbering occurred from the province; they just dumped a bunch of roads on lower levels of government, leaving a TON of gaps in their system.  Numbering changes might have made the gaps less jarring (especially where route fragments just end at each other), but such never occurred.

[epzik8]

This actually makes me ask:

We're used to the nationwide grids of the US and Interstate routes.  Are there any other countries who use a similar approach with their national route numbering?

South Korea; both the grid and the route markers resemble our interstates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_in_South_Korea

The more you know

[kkt]

It bugs me that the video consistently refers to north-south as "vertical" and east-west as "horizontal".

Also that they refer to numbering as a forgotten code, when it's written up in every U.S. road atlas.  We're not exactly talking about Linear A here.

[froggie]

Also that they refer to numbering as a forgotten code, when it's written up in every U.S. road atlas.  We're not exactly talking about Linear A here.

Maybe it falls under Differential Equations?

[TheStranger]

Would the closest thing to that in North America that has occurred since be Ontario's route downloading?

I'm not sure that I'd count that, given that no renumbering occurred from the province; they just dumped a bunch of roads on lower levels of government, leaving a TON of gaps in their system.  Numbering changes might have made the gaps less jarring (especially where route fragments just end at each other), but such never occurred.

There were some new numbered roads that came out of the downloading era, though not too many.  The one I recall is Regional Road 174 in Ottawa...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Road_174

Which apparently is being READDED (after 27 years) to the provincial highway system as of this past March!

[Big John]

Also that they refer to numbering as a forgotten code, when it's written up in every U.S. road atlas.  We're not exactly talking about Linear A here.

Maybe it falls under Differential Equations?

Use the Laplace Transform.

[vdeane]

Would the closest thing to that in North America that has occurred since be Ontario's route downloading?

I'm not sure that I'd count that, given that no renumbering occurred from the province; they just dumped a bunch of roads on lower levels of government, leaving a TON of gaps in their system.  Numbering changes might have made the gaps less jarring (especially where route fragments just end at each other), but such never occurred.

There were some new numbered roads that came out of the downloading era, though not too many.  The one I recall is Regional Road 174 in Ottawa...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Road_174

Which apparently is being READDED (after 27 years) to the provincial highway system as of this past March!

Still, not quite as exciting as the systematic renumberings of old (and basically the equivalent of a county route, although the closest comparison is CR 215 around Las Vegas).  It will be interesting to see how uploading works out for RR 174; it's still being negotiated, and in the similar situation around Toronto, apparently "city still owns the road but the province pays for maintenance" is an option.

[bugo]

some

interestingly, California did renumber some state routes in anticipation of the interstates, starting in the late 1950s:
1934-1963 Route 5 (Skyline Boulevard from SF south towards Santa Cruz) -> Route 35 (35 was made available by I-605 taking over that corridor
1934-1963 Route 8 (rural route east of Stockton) -> Route 26 (made available by I-10 taking over the old Olympic corridor)
1934-1958 Route 10 (which originally covered Firestone Boulevard/Manchester Avenue from LAX east to Norwalk then to Harbor Boulevard/US 101 in Anaheim) -> Route 42
1934-1964 Route 15 (Long Beach Freeway) -> Route 7 (made available by I-405 taking over the old Route 7/Sepulveda pathway)
[/quote]

Arkansas did the same thing. AR 30 became AR 130 (and is now mostly US 165), AR 40 became AR 140 and AR 55 became AR 355. That policy is no longer in practice, as there is a US 49 and an I-49 in the same state. AR 42, AR 57 and AR 69 will likely not be renumbered. There is also the New York-style practice of extending Interstates as state highways: AR 440 and AR 530 come to mind. There were once two AR 540s. The original ran down what is now I-540 from AR 22 and US 71 (I-540 ended at AR 22/Rogers Avenue for some reason). The other was the section of what is now I-49 from I-40 in Alma to AR 282 in Mountainburg, then along AR 282 to end at US 71.