Various road observations

[Mergingtraffic]

I noticed with BGS's, that some exit signs aren't tabbed.  The specific service signs "Food Exit 3" or "Gas Exit 4" the exit is in the sign and not tabbed.  Why?  The same with park and ride or train station BGS, the exit number is usually in the sign itself.  Shouldn't there be exit tabs for continuity?

Also, since the MUTCD is splitting hairs over certain issues, why is no black on yellow drop down arrow required for "This Lane End 1500 Ft" type BYS's? It weould just reinforce what lane is ending.   I mean, they added 3 dashes to road narrows warning signs?

Finally, some states add a sign under a warning sign stating the upcoming street name.  Why is this black on yellow rather than white on green? Continutiy. 

Why are "Exit 35 MPH" signs yellow?  Isn't it more a regulatory sign? 

[deathtopumpkins]

Why are "Exit 35 MPH" signs yellow?  Isn't it more a regulatory sign? 

Because it is an advisory speed, just like on a curve. The speed limit on the offramp is not 35 mph, it's just advised that you slow down to 35 mph.

[roadman65]

I noticed with BGS's, that some exit signs aren't tabbed.  The specific service signs "Food Exit 3" or "Gas Exit 4" the exit is in the sign and not tabbed.  Why?  The same with park and ride or train station BGS, the exit number is usually in the sign itself.  Shouldn't there be exit tabs for continuity?

Also, since the MUTCD is splitting hairs over certain issues, why is no black on yellow drop down arrow required for "This Lane End 1500 Ft" type BYS's? It weould just reinforce what lane is ending.   I mean, they added 3 dashes to road narrows warning signs?

Finally, some states add a sign under a warning sign stating the upcoming street name.  Why is this black on yellow rather than white on green? Continutiy. 

Why are "Exit 35 MPH" signs yellow?  Isn't it more a regulatory sign? 

From what I figured, it only applies to main guide signs.  Blue service, yellow warning, and brown state park signs are considered auxillary signage.   Those signs do not count, although the word "USE" is no longer used, so I am thinking that MUTCD changed their guidelines somewhat.  Even the NJ Turnpike and their "EXIT X FOR XXXX" is being replaced with new signing practices.

[Alps]

Also, since the MUTCD is splitting hairs over certain issues, why is no black on yellow drop down arrow required for "This Lane End 1500 Ft" type BYS's? It weould just reinforce what lane is ending.   I mean, they added 3 dashes to road narrows warning signs?

Interesting that the NJ Turnpike has already been mentioned in this thread, because they DO include the arrow on overhead signs. (The MUTCD allows text-base warning signs to be created by each agency.) I agree that it makes much more sense.

[roadman65]

If we are on the subject of road observations, I noticed this one.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.781021,-73.987502&spn=0.003501,0.006899&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.781221,-73.9873&panoid=f4Epn_yjDmVURn-8bdAk1w&cbp=12,272.44,,0,0

This here is taken on NY 9A near 72nd Street in New York City, and it is reminents of the old West Side Highway with its original lamp posts and its infrastructure.   The only thing different is the fact the original color scheme of the West Side Highway was battleship grey, and it had a road bed of cobblestones for its deck.  I do remember when I drove this section back in the 80's, it gave you quite a shake and you would have never wanted to conquer it if you had to go to the restroom.

[roadfro]

I noticed with BGS's, that some exit signs aren't tabbed.  The specific service signs "Food Exit 3" or "Gas Exit 4" the exit is in the sign and not tabbed.  Why?  The same with park and ride or train station BGS, the exit number is usually in the sign itself.  Shouldn't there be exit tabs for continuity?

The MUTCD has an option for general service signs to use an exit number tab instead of the typical word message. However, specific service signs (the ones that show the logos of the businesses) don't have that option listed.

Also, since the MUTCD is splitting hairs over certain issues, why is no black on yellow drop down arrow required for "This Lane End 1500 Ft" type BYS's? It weould just reinforce what lane is ending.   I mean, they added 3 dashes to road narrows warning signs?

These are not standard signs in the MUTCD. I've seen examples of this with a drop arrow used, and I think it is a good idea.

Finally, some states add a sign under a warning sign stating the upcoming street name.  Why is this black on yellow rather than white on green?

The current MUTCD officially introduced the Advance Street Name Plaque that is used to list upcoming streets in conjunction with an intersection warning sign. Although the text does not specifically state the sign must be black on yellow, the text refers to the figure which is shown that way. Also, there is language that says a supplemental warning plaque must contain same color scheme as the warning sign.

Some states, Nevada being one, have used white on green in the past. I think that is a better combination than black on yellow.

[1995hoo]

This thread reminds me of a question my wife raised a couple of weeks ago. I was rather surprised she noticed the issue, actually. We were heading to my parents' house for dinner and we took  the Inner Loop of I-495 in Virginia. The exit numbers descend as you head clockwise around the Inner Loop (because they're an extension of Maryland's numbers, which are based on I-95 mileage). When we went to exit at a cloverleaf via a C/D lane, my wife noticed that the first (eastbound) ramp is Exit 52B and the second (westbound loop ramp) is Exit 52A and she asked why it's like that instead of having "A" come first. My response was that on the Outer Loop, where the numbers increase as you go anti-clockwise, the westbound ramp is "A" and the eastbound one is "B" and the MUTCD diagram shows the same "A" and "B" usage on the Inner Loop.

Her reaction was to ask WHY they do it that way and I have to say I wasn't really sure other than "that's what the diagram shows," but I told her I thought the idea might be to ensure, insofar as possible, that all ramps serving a particular movement (in this case, let's say I-495 to westbound VA-236) share the same letter suffix. I took a look at the MUTCD at the time and I can't say I recall any text explicitly requiring the letters to go in the opposite order on the "descending-number" side of the road–it was simply the diagrams showing it. Anyone have a better explanation I can give her if she mentions it again?

(Usually my wife grumbles about me commenting on road signs and the like, so I was surprised and a bit pleased that she noticed this one.)

[jeffandnicole]

Simple...just like exit numbers decend, exit letters decend as well.  Northbound, one would encounter Exit 1A, Exit 1B, Exit 2, Exit 3A, Exit 3B...

Southbound it's just the opposite, Exit 3B, Exit 3A, Exit 2, Exit 1B, Exit 1A.

And to further expand on that, picture a nice cloverleaf interchange.  Let's say, going Northbound, Exit 1A is for Route 100 East, and Exit 1B is for Route 100 West.  Southbound, Exit 1B would still be for Route 100 West, and Exit 1A would be for Route 100 East.

[1995hoo]

Simple...just like exit numbers decend, exit letters decend as well.  Northbound, one would encounter Exit 1A, Exit 1B, Exit 2, Exit 3A, Exit 3B...

Southbound it's just the opposite, Exit 3B, Exit 3A, Exit 2, Exit 1B, Exit 1A.

And to further expand on that, picture a nice cloverleaf interchange.  Let's say, going Northbound, Exit 1A is for Route 100 East, and Exit 1B is for Route 100 West.  Southbound, Exit 1B would still be for Route 100 West, and Exit 1A would be for Route 100 East.

That's more or less what I said in my post above. I was just wondering if there's a more formal explanation somewhere.

[roadman65]

Simple...just like exit numbers decend, exit letters decend as well.  Northbound, one would encounter Exit 1A, Exit 1B, Exit 2, Exit 3A, Exit 3B...

Southbound it's just the opposite, Exit 3B, Exit 3A, Exit 2, Exit 1B, Exit 1A.

And to further expand on that, picture a nice cloverleaf interchange.  Let's say, going Northbound, Exit 1A is for Route 100 East, and Exit 1B is for Route 100 West.  Southbound, Exit 1B would still be for Route 100 West, and Exit 1A would be for Route 100 East.

Not on the Garden State Parkway they do not.  Southbound you have Exits 143, 143A, and 143B in a row descending from North to South.  You have Exit 131A south of Exit 131 both NB and SB, and in Lower Township, NJ you have the two Southbound exits for NJ 47 that are Exit 4A for NB NJ 47 (the first southbound ramp) and Exit 4B for SB NJ 47 that is the last ramp before the southern terminus of the Parkway.

[jeffandnicole]

Simple...just like exit numbers decend, exit letters decend as well.  Northbound, one would encounter Exit 1A, Exit 1B, Exit 2, Exit 3A, Exit 3B...

Southbound it's just the opposite, Exit 3B, Exit 3A, Exit 2, Exit 1B, Exit 1A.

And to further expand on that, picture a nice cloverleaf interchange.  Let's say, going Northbound, Exit 1A is for Route 100 East, and Exit 1B is for Route 100 West.  Southbound, Exit 1B would still be for Route 100 West, and Exit 1A would be for Route 100 East.

Not on the Garden State Parkway they do not.  Southbound you have Exits 143, 143A, and 143B in a row descending from North to South.  You have Exit 131A south of Exit 131 both NB and SB, and in Lower Township, NJ you have the two Southbound exits for NJ 47 that are Exit 4A for NB NJ 47 (the first southbound ramp) and Exit 4B for SB NJ 47 that is the last ramp before the southern terminus of the Parkway.

Yeah, the GSP is a bit screwed up.  They just got around to changing the exit numbers for Rt. 72 from Exit 63 & Exit 63A to Exit 63A and Exit 63B.  The AC Expressway Exits are 38 and 38A, not 38A & 38B. 

One other 'error' most don't catch onto is that I-76 in NJ is sequentially numbered from East to West, not West to East.

[vdeane]

It's worth noting that I-76 does not have its own exit numbers in NJ.  The first is a continuation of the PA numbering; the others are a continuation of I-676's numbering.

[jp the roadgeek]

In CT, there's really no rhyme or reason with sequential exit numbers when there's multiple exits together.  Usually, if the exits were created at the time the exits were numbered on the highway, then they'll actually have 2 different exit numbers, 1 for each direction (Examples: I-84 Exit 19 is for CT 8S, and Exit 20 is for CT 8N.  Also on CT 15, exit 57 is CT 34 E, and 58 is CT 34 W)  If the exits were created later, they're either numbered A & B if for 2 different roads (I-91 Exits 35 A & B, with A being for I-291 and B for CT 218), or directional if for the same route (I-91 Exit 25N + 25S for CT 3).

[Alps]

It's worth noting that I-76 does not have its own exit numbers in NJ.  The first is a continuation of the PA numbering; the others are a continuation of I-676's numbering.

Errrr no. Exit 1 on I-676 is Exit 2 on I-76. It is in fact numbered south to north starting at I-295.

[vdeane]

Now that I'm actually bothering to look at street view rather than just the numbers on Google Maps, this area strikes me as very odd.  I-676's numbers definitely have the 0 point at I-295.  The interchange between I-76 and I-676 appears to use 1 for the movements to local streets and 2 for the movements to the other freeway, and 354 being used from I-76 east to the local streets.  A little ways to the south is another exit 1 and right on top of the interchange to the north is exit 3.

Wait... does I-676 use sequential numbers?  If so, then these actually make (more) sense, with the exception of exit 354.

[NE2]

http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/sldiag/00000676__-.pdf

[Alps]

http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/sldiag/00000676__-.pdf

Never thought of it before, but yeah, there you have a sequential freeway.

[jeffandnicole]

Now that I'm actually bothering to look at street view rather than just the numbers on Google Maps, this area strikes me as very odd.  I-676's numbers definitely have the 0 point at I-295.  The interchange between I-76 and I-676 appears to use 1 for the movements to local streets and 2 for the movements to the other freeway, and 354 being used from I-76 east to the local streets.  A little ways to the south is another exit 1 and right on top of the interchange to the north is exit 3.

Wait... does I-676 use sequential numbers?  If so, then these actually make (more) sense, with the exception of exit 354.

I-676 starts/ends at the Walt Whitman Bridge, not I-295. 

I-76 starts at I-295. 

Going WB, there's no 1A, and 1B is around MP 0.1. 
Going EB, 1B is around MP 0.3, and 1A is technically on NJ 42, at MP 14.2. 

Interchange 1C/1D is for US 130, in the vincinity of MP 1.0. 

Exit 2 is I-676 North, around MP 2.2.  Then I-676 starts, but Interchanges 1, 2 & 3 are all located within the first mile or so of the highway, which kinda screws up numbering the exits by milepost numbers.  Exit 5 is near MP 5 at least.

[roadman65]

Now that I'm actually bothering to look at street view rather than just the numbers on Google Maps, this area strikes me as very odd.  I-676's numbers definitely have the 0 point at I-295.  The interchange between I-76 and I-676 appears to use 1 for the movements to local streets and 2 for the movements to the other freeway, and 354 being used from I-76 east to the local streets.  A little ways to the south is another exit 1 and right on top of the interchange to the north is exit 3.

Wait... does I-676 use sequential numbers?  If so, then these actually make (more) sense, with the exception of exit 354.

I-676 starts/ends at the Walt Whitman Bridge, not I-295. 

I-76 starts at I-295. 

Going WB, there's no 1A, and 1B is around MP 0.1. 
Going EB, 1B is around MP 0.3, and 1A is technically on NJ 42, at MP 14.2. 

Interchange 1C/1D is for US 130, in the vincinity of MP 1.0. 

Exit 2 is I-676 North, around MP 2.2.  Then I-676 starts, but Interchanges 1, 2 & 3 are all located within the first mile or so of the highway, which kinda screws up numbering the exits by milepost numbers.  Exit 5 is near MP 5 at least.

I always thought that I-90 on the NYS Thruway was odd having its exit numbers backwards, but, I must say, that the I-76 and I-676 saga is more interesting.

[vdeane]

Wow, quite a bit of mis-interpretation with regards to my last post on this thread.  But, in any case, I figured out what's going on.

First, I never said I-686 ended at I-295 - just that the "zero point" for I-676's mileage is there.  It wouldn't be the only case where the two are different (such as I-276 on the PA Turnpike).  Also, exit 5 on I-676 is at MP 3.

And now, the good stuff:
The weirdness here stems from the history of the two routes in this area.  When I-76 was first designated in 1964 (1958 if you include the time as I-80S), it did not follow its present alignment to the Walt Whitman Bridge.  It instead followed the present path of I-676 over the Benjamin Franklin Bridge, and I-676 followed current I-76 down to the Walt Whitman Bridge.  The two roads were switched in 1972, though obviously somebody forgot to change the numbering scheme to reflect this.

As for I-90 and I-87 in NY, each has three "zero points":
I-87: the real one, at I-278, the start of the Thruway, and the interchange between I-90 and the Adirondack Northway (technically, the exit 24 toll barrier on I-90 can be counted as a fourth)
I-90: the start of the Thruway, the exit 24 toll barrier in Albany, and Thruway exit 21A

All of this is because the Thruway numbering and mile posts dominate over the actual mileage.  NYSDOT acts like I-90 exists only on the free section in Albany, though with the exception of region 7 (Clinton county), they have the reference markers right on I-87.

[roadman65]

No I am aware of the Thruway's odd alignment that cause I-90 to have backwards exit and mileposts.  Also, the fact that toll roads dominate over the numbers on it, especially a closed ticket system, although PTC did do it well with the NE Extension being able to use the Blue Route's zero point for mileposts and exits.  So, feel at ease, I did not comment on that being the same as I-76's awkward situation.

I just thought I-76's situation is far more fascinating because of its history.  Although, I am sure many do not realize or have forgotten about I-76 and I-676 being switched in 72 and it is good to point out.  Also, another thing to point out is that in New Jersey I-676 is signed north and south unlike Pennsylvania where it is East and West, so the exit numbers are not that unusual for it except where you mention it.  That may be to avoid alphabet soup, so things were bent as well as being I-76 is a short route in New Jersey it does not matter that much to do it by the book, considering that many feel that NJ 42, the ACE, and I-76 are one roadway.

[Kacie Jane]

First, I never said I-686 ended at I-295 - just that the "zero point" for I-676's mileage is there.  It wouldn't be the only case where the two are different (such as I-276 on the PA Turnpike).  Also, exit 5 on I-676 is at MP 3.

Check NE2's link.  MP 0 for I-676 is at I-76, not I-295.

Exit 5 on I-676 is at MP 3, which puts it three miles from I-76 and five miles from I-295.  (But being #5 and five miles from I-295 is a coincidence.  As NE2 and Steve said, it's numbered sequentially starting from I-76.)