Re-shielding existing routes for a Bypass and Spur freeways in Nashville

[codyg1985]

Except Tennessee uses Clarksville, not Paducah for I-24.

I remember when St.Louis was the control city for I-24 westbound in Nashville even though I-24 didn't even reach it. At over 310 miles that had to be one of the longest distance control cities east of the Mississippi.

There is still one remaining mileage sign on I-24 west of Nashville that shows the distance to St. Louis. From there I don't think you see any mention of St. Louis again until Paducah.

[rte66man]

Except Tennessee uses Clarksville, not Paducah for I-24.

I remember when St.Louis was the control city for I-24 westbound in Nashville even though I-24 didn't even reach it. At over 310 miles that had to be one of the longest distance control cities east of the Mississippi.

There is still one remaining mileage sign on I-24 west of Nashville that shows the distance to St. Louis. From there I don't think you see any mention of St. Louis again until Paducah.

I never understood why St. Louis was the control city as many (if not most) of the drivers were heading to somewhere east and north of it.

rte66man

[SFPredsFan]

Trust me when I say over half of the guests at my hotel are from the Midwest mostly going thru St. Louis. I'm exactly at the half way point to Florida for most of them either way and I see the same guests coming or going home. We've got a pet friendly hotel so I know the dogs better than the people that stay here.

[hbelkins]

There is still one remaining mileage sign on I-24 west of Nashville that shows the distance to St. Louis. From there I don't think you see any mention of St. Louis again until Paducah.

Years ago, there was one sign on an intersecting route in Kentucky (think it was at the Pembroke/Oak Grove exit) that mentioned STL. In Kentucky, everything else is Paducah until you get to the US 68 Paducah exit, then STL starts showing up as a control city and on mileage signs. From Paducah east, everything is Nashville, not Clarksville.

[mrsman]

I never understood why St. Louis was the control city as many (if not most) of the drivers were heading to somewhere east and north of it.

The original 2di control cities from Nashville, similar to many cities in the US, used relatively big cities as control points:

Louisville, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Memphis, and St.Louis.

Even though I-24 doesn't  reach St. Louis, it's pointed almost directly toward the city.  The only other big city that would make any sense would be Chicago (I-24 ends at I-57 and I-57's control city is Chicago).  But I believe that most traffic from Chicago to Nashville would probably go by way of I-65.

[SFPredsFan]

Just received an e-mail from TDOT regarding my suggestions.

Looks like TDOT will follow through with re-signing SR840 and add control cities on all major directional interchanges. TDOT said they will start designing signage now and I assume they will only have to apply to AASHTO and await their approval. The e-mail also stated they want to do everything they can to encourage thru traffic to bypass Nashville.

As for Briley Parkway, they stated it's potentially too confusing to sign this type of alternative routing plan and it could have an adverse impact on the local communities along Briley Parkway. Most of the senior management were leaning against it but several are in favor of it. Their reasoning confuses me because when Briley Parkway was expanded to 8 lanes on the east loop, noise walls were built where needed. The west loop of SR155 is a no mans lands with very little development or traffic to speak of. I can see the impact of upgrading SR155 between I-40 and I-24 on the SE loop, but the 16 or so homes with driveways on Briley Parkway are hardly considered nice houses, pretty ghetto actually, and a frontage road for them would be much safer than direct driveways on Briley. TDOT has bought off nicer homes in the past so I think the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The few connecting side streets could easily be sealed off and a couple of interchanges built for access for those neighborhoods to the west and commercial plants to the east of Briley. IMO, You can't buy or build a home next to a highway, railroad, or airport and bitch about it later.

As far as the confusion of putting an interstate shield on SR155 and adding control cities at the major directional interchanges, I think they are flat out wrong. How hard is it to follow control city signs to where you are headed? I have to tell at least 20 guests leaving or coming to my hotel everyday to take Briley Parkway to get around that hell zone called the downtown Nashville loop and they are all VERY, VERY, grateful they didn't have to spend an extra 30-60 minutes in traffic. I will follow up again with TDOT and I'm going to another meeting on Oct. 22nd but told them I'm going to a NIN concert at Bridgestone Arena afterwards so I can't stay long for that meeting.   

[froggie]

IMO, You can't buy or build a home next to a highway, railroad, or airport and bitch about it later.

However, if they buy/build a home before the road becomes a highway (which I believe was the case with these homes on Briley...that leg of Briley has not always been a traffic sewer), then they have rationale to complain...

[SFPredsFan]

Geez Froggie, Who the hell ever built some thing B4 that highway or that road that was a trail in this major city? Gimme a friggin break! It used to be the entrance to the old BNA so I could give a rats ass about them bitching about traffic noise today.

[NE2]

u mad bro?

[SFPredsFan]

Uhh, yea..Try navigating these freeways in Nashville everyday then you can tell me about it. The way Nashville is booming with no end in sight I'm trying to offer solutions by going to TDOT directly and meeting with them. This fictional BS is a waste of time and I thought this board was about getting results. Maybe this is the wrong venue to be on to talk about REAL problems and how to get them fixed regarding our gridlock in America. BTW, for every car and truck spewing out their toxic spill stuck going 2 mph stuck in traffic, they could be driving 55+ around my city and I take that personally b/c I have to breath this shit.

[froggie]

Geez Froggie, Who the hell ever built some thing B4 that highway or that road that was a trail in this major city? Gimme a friggin break!

It happens far more often than you give credit to, where roads leading out of and near major cities had roadside development along them long before they became major roadways.

As for your latest comment, you may have missed it when you first signed up but this is a board made up of road and transportation enthusiasts.  While this is a good board to discuss ideas and thoughts related to roads, if you want action taken on a given issue you did indeed come to the wrong place.

Lastly, if you're concerned about breathing in "toxic spill" from Nashville traffic, you had best start talking to your fellow Nashvilliens, as they are the ones causing most of your air pollution (and the trucks to a lesser extent, but most of those are on I-65 or I-40, not I-24).

[31E]

Uhh, yea..Try navigating these freeways in Nashville everyday then you can tell me about it. The way Nashville is booming with no end in sight I'm trying to offer solutions by going to TDOT directly and meeting with them. This fictional BS is a waste of time and I thought this board was about getting results. Maybe this is the wrong venue to be on to talk about REAL problems and how to get them fixed regarding our gridlock in America. BTW, for every car and truck spewing out their toxic spill stuck going 2 mph stuck in traffic, they could be driving 55+ around my city and I take that personally b/c I have to breath this shit.

I take it personally too, since I drive through there often and Nashvillians are the ones who have to sit in this traffic so much, so they should take it personally too. It's TDOT's job to make sure that Tennesseans get where they're going as efficiently as possible. If TDOT has failed to do that don't blame Nashvillians for having the gall to *gasp* travel around their own city as froggie seems to be doing. The default assumption at most DOTs is that congestion will increase and increase until our road system and economy ceases to function, and all that DOTs can do is delay the inevitable. The reality is that there's enough money coming in to create a transportation system second to none, but our politicians have other priorities.

I agree with froggie that this board is for roadgeeks to discuss ideas and facts about roads; for direct action you need to enlist the help of the locals, and we're no good for that. I also agree with froggie that often when new roads are built or turn into major thoroughfares there are pre-existing residents. However, the western half of Briley Parkway has no pre-freeway development next to it that I've ever seen (and I drive on that stretch a lot so I know what I'm talking about). In this particular case no one built anything next to it before it was a major thoroughfare, and most major routes in Nashville have been that way so long there's virtually no pre-existing residents left.

[froggie]

Not blaming Nashvilliens per se...just pointing out that, as with other major cities, the vast majority of traffic (and resultant air pollution) in a given metropolitan area is local in nature, or has an origin or destination in that area.  My point about talking to your fellow Nashvilliens is that the solution will ultimately have to be local in nature, whether it be transportation improvements (and how to fund them...also ultimately local in nature), alternative modes, or people finding a way to move closer to where they work/do stuff which short of economic meltdown is the only real way to reduce overall traffic.

[SFPredsFan]

@31E....While I agree this board is intended for road geeks an such, there's room for both. IMO there's enough room for people to encourage and take action with DOT's and get personally involved with solving our gridlock problems wherever they might be and road enthusiast. I don't consider myself a road geek but I took a lot of classes at NDSU on Urban Planning and Civil Engineering and almost made it my major/minor for my degree. I probably should have since managing hotels sucks more time than not and I'm sure the money would have been better.

As far as Briley Parkway, from the history I can find, it was built for access to the old BNA terminal back in the 1937 and none of the homes or owners today originated before that time. That area was farm land and all the homes were closer to Murfreesboro Road and the homes with driveways on Briley were built later. If BNA would have expanded the original airport terminal back in the 80's, TDOT would've had to buy them out and make it a freeway anyways. It's interesting to note, the homes with driveways connecting to Briley on the SE loop are rentals and are in horrible condition. Just take a close up from google maps and see for yourself. TDOT did an excellent job of shielding homes and neighborhoods north of I-40 except the section between I-24 and I-65. TDOT owned the ROW before those homes were built and everybody knew the highway was coming next to their neighborhood so I have no sympathy for them. In fact, I never hear anybody complaining about traffic noise here....just the traffic.

[Alex]

Uhh, yea..Try navigating these freeways in Nashville everyday then you can tell me about it. The way Nashville is booming with no end in sight I'm trying to offer solutions by going to TDOT directly and meeting with them. This fictional BS is a waste of time and I thought this board was about getting results. Maybe this is the wrong venue to be on to talk about REAL problems and how to get them fixed regarding our gridlock in America. BTW, for every car and truck spewing out their toxic spill stuck going 2 mph stuck in traffic, they could be driving 55+ around my city and I take that personally b/c I have to breath this shit.

Your posts about actual efforts on ideas for renumbering are welcome here. Feedback is feedback, either way you are getting an idea of what the effort has to overcome to succeed. Keep the posts and ideas about Nashville coming, I for one have enjoyed reading them.

[froggie]

Nothing wrong with people taking action...have taken plenty myself over the years.  But in my experience, the people tend to have more credibility if they're local to the area, or at least from the same state.  We have a large pool of users here on AARoads, but with few exceptions, not a lot of clustering in a given regional or metropolitan area.

And agree with Alex...keep the posts coming.

[rickmeck]

I used to travel I-24 quite a bit between Nashville and M'Boro. The control cities for westbound TN 840 used to be Franklin and Huntsville. Several years ago, it was changed to just Franklin. Any reason for the change?

[SFPredsFan]

I used to travel I-24 quite a bit between Nashville and M'Boro. The control cities for westbound TN 840 used to be Franklin and Huntsville. Several years ago, it was changed to just Franklin. Any reason for the change?

It seems a waste of to remove it but it seems TDOT was trying to make 840 just a local route rather than a bypass until the western section was complete all the way to I-40 west to Memphis. That's my guess anyways.

[SFPredsFan]

I just got another update from TDOT and it looks like the advisory committee has added several of my suggestions. Some of them were already on the Nashville MPO and/or TDOT's long term plans of 2026 or 2035 but the they will recommend they be added to the 3 years plan which means they hope to have public comment, EIS, ROW, and construction started and/or completed by then. These are the recommendations that were forwarded to me.

The elimination of loop ramps on the east bank of Downtown Nashville to diamond interchanges will happen along with widening I-24 to 8 lanes within existing ROW. Some frontage roads will replace exits altogether and a new ramp from I-24 west to Ellington Parkway northbound towards I-65 will replace the one there now. Several ramps will be obliterated altogether from side streets which will allow better access from Ellington Parkway southbound to downtown and I-24 eastbound. Ellington Parkway will also be widened to 6 lanes with serious consideration of re-shielding it as a X65 Interstate when completed. The loop ramp elimination will allow TDOT to expand I-24 without widening most of existing bridges.

SR155 will be recommended to be widened and rebuilt from I-24 to I-40 with added interchanges and an upgraded I-24/SR155 interchange. Either an even numbered X64 or X24 will be considered for designation after it is completed depending on the number assigned to the SR155 loop north of I-40. I'd say a flyover ramp from SR155 to I-24 east would have to be built and most of those homes with driveways connecting to SR155 would have to go. They're really ghetto rentals anyways.

The Fern Avenue overpass was scheduled to be replaced in 2026 but that project will also be recommended to be moved up and I-24/I-65 concurrence will be widened to 12 lanes from Trinity Lane southbound allowing 3 main line exits lanes in each direction at the I-65/I-24 split. Looks like TDOT will have to widen the Cumberland River Bridge but they had plans to widen I-65 from I-24 to I-40 to 8 lanes anyways. Interesting to note, the only thing putting off that project was funding, but Knoxville canceled the $100+ million James White Parkway project so contracts can be let when they get funds since all EIS and ROW are already done.

I already covered 840 and control city signage a couple of days ago but I brought up the ghost ramp to SR155 east on the ramp from I-65 to Ellington Parkway southbound. I suggested that TDOT complete that ramp and obliterate the clover leaf ramp that has 2 nasty merges with SR155 westbound to I-65 southbound and the ramp from SR155 eastbound to I-65 northbound. I think TDOT just flat out forgot about that ramp or maybe went over budget when they rebuilt that entire I-65/SR155/Ellington Parkway interchange and couldn't complete the ramp. TDOT agreed and said they will let me know soon.

I don't think TODT can get all those projects going within 3 years due to funding but it's good to know it's on the 3 year plan and on their radar. If TDOT can get at least the north loop of SR155 and 840 re-shielded along with adding control city signage I think it would take some pressure off of the downtown loop. TDOT needs to divert as much inbound Nashville thru traffic anyway to avoid the construction zones. Those are always white knucklers for me and even worse when I'm passing through other major cities construction zones.

[Avalanchez71]

I think I am going to object to the 840 re-shielding as it will bring increased traffic and noise.  It will also cost money to make said signage. 

[codyg1985]

That is an ambitious plan by TDOT. I hope they can do it all, but even just some of it would help. Widening I-24/65 down to the south split north of downtown would help tremendously on its own.

[froggie]

but Knoxville canceled the $100+ million James White Parkway project so contracts can be let when they get funds since all EIS and ROW are already done.

You alluded to this in your last paragraph, but I don't think $100 million is enough to do what TDOT proposes.  Not even close.  The 155 improvements alone could easily eat up that $100 million.  Unless they magically found funding elsewhere (always possible, but likely came from more projects besides Knoxville), you may also likely see some of that come back off the 3-year plan.  Federal law requires the 3-year plan (known in most places at the STIP, or Surface Transportation Improvement Program) to be fiscally constrained.  In other words, if they don't have the money in place to do the project, the project does not go on the list.

I also find it somewhat surprising that they're proposing all this widening since, a couple years ago, the TDOT Commissioner announced that "road widening" would no longer be a primary consideration.

[SFPredsFan]

I think I am going to object to the 840 re-shielding as it will bring increased traffic and noise.  It will also cost money to make said signage.

Your kidding right? You must live in Williamson County. It's already completed and was built for a bypass of Nashville. Freeways are built for traffic and that brings some noise, so get over it. Years of delays from Gene Cotton and his NIMBY's cost $10's of millions in extra dollars for 840 that accomplished nothing suing to stop it. If you've got a problem with cost contact him. And replacing state shields to Interstate shields has to amount to 1% of the cost to build the freeway. Maybe less than 1%.

I always did think it was stupid to sign 840 as a state highway until the entire loop was completed just like SR385 around Memphis. But I think TDOT was trying to get around doing a complete EIS which had something to do with signing them as state freeways. TDOT should go ahead and put the I-269 shields up now and just put local access only on the signage. When it's completed down to I-55 in MS then TDOT can add control cities to Jackson, MS and Nashville.

[SFPredsFan]

You alluded to this in your last paragraph, but I don't think $100 million is enough to do what TDOT proposes.  Not even close.  The 155 improvements alone could easily eat up that $100 million. 

I also find it somewhat surprising that they're proposing all this widening since, a couple years ago, the TDOT Commissioner announced that "road widening" would no longer be a primary consideration.

I think he was referring to already widened roads not the substandard ones that haven't been widened in decades. That might have been the previous TDOT commissioner also. People are already requesting I-24 be widened again to M-Boro but that's NOT going to happen. I-40 east to Lebanon is about to be expanded and TDOT just let the contract to expand I-65 south to 840. I-65 desperately needs to be expanded to the KY border also. Most of substandard inner city freeways haven't been touched in decades in Nashville and Chattanooga and some haven't been touched since they were built back in the 60's. Nashville has 6 Interstates that are all 8, 10, or 12 lanes feeding into the 6 lane downtown loop. Thanks to TDOT, it only took 20 years but Knoxville has finished their freeway construction for our life times anyways other than far west I-40/75.

And your right, $100 mil will about cover the SR155 SE rebuild. The rest has been budgeted at about $150 million over 3 years which is very realistic with a $831 million dollar/year road construction budget. The 5.7 mile I-40/I-240 east Memphis project was just awarded for $109 million, but that is a big ass complex project. I think the real savings will be eliminating the loop ramps to allow I-24 to use the existing bridges for widening it to 8 lanes. Only 1 or 2 bridges will have to be widened from the I-24/65 split to exit 49. Widening Ellington to 6 lanes will be last on the list but the substandard ramps at the south end can be reconfigured and obliterated pretty easily.

I have to say, as much as people complain about DOT's around the country, TDOT has to be the model of efficiency. Tennessee is a pay go state and we owe absolutely nothing on our roads. I think several studies said that TDOT gets the biggest bang for the buck in America since there are no bonds with interest to pay off. The roads here are in a hell of a lot better shape in Tennessee than most states I've traveled especially in the Northeast. 

[froggie]

Tennessee doesn't have to deal with the freeze-thaw cycle that the Northeast does, however.  Or have nearly as extensive snow-removal for the winter.  Both are significant factors when comparing the two.