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Started by Alps, September 17, 2013, 07:00:19 PM

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roadman65

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 14, 2023, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 14, 2023, 02:24:16 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on November 13, 2023, 08:29:46 PM
You got that right roadman65 ! The one time I ever drove the whole length of the ACE back in 2011, I was amazed at the bad non-MUTCD signage. Never seen that anywhere else in modern times on a major road like that. Even New York City with all its issues has pretty good MUTCD signage including on its older roads.

And no upgrades. Maybe a sign here or two. The EB exit for US 9 is as close to norm as it gets as it was an added ramp as originally the US 9 exchange was a half diamond from the east.  That is why the mismatching control cities as Pleasantville is used EB while Smithfield and Northfield going WB.  The engineer who expanded the US 9 exit, felt Pleasantville was good choice, but the original expressway designers felt that using Smithfield / Northfield was good to satisfy a need for both directions( as The Parkway already was constructed serving the further cities on US 9 already) at the time.

Another overlooked MUTCD issue: Exit numbers go Westbound, not Eastbound.

Other upgrades:
Interchange 9, from a partial to full interchange.
Interchange 17, from a partial to full interchange.
Interchange 41, built new about 20 years ago.
Widening of the Expressway from Exit 7 to 31.
Addition of a 2nd gas station/convenience store near AC.
Addition of a welcome center near AC (since closed).
Construction of express toll lanes.
Construction of the ACX Connector.



The New York Thruway says hi.

It is more longer East- West than North- South, but uses east to west numbering of mileposts and sequencing of exit numbers using its N- S nature from NYC to Albany as the originator.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe


storm2k

Quote from: SignBridge on November 13, 2023, 08:29:46 PM
You got that right roadman65 ! The one time I ever drove the whole length of the ACE back in 2011, I was amazed at the bad non-MUTCD signage. Never seen that anywhere else in modern times on a major road like that. Even New York City with all its issues has pretty good MUTCD signage including on its older roads.

Honestly, a lot of Parkway signage before the 2010s was all over the place and of much varying levels of what you would call MUTCD compliance. Plenty of photos of classic NJ Highway Authority signage exists to be found out there (ALPSRoads has a ton of it), it really was a wild assortment of signage practices that would never pass muster. Now the signage is mostly consistent and uses the same "mostly MUTCD" standards that the Turnpike Autority has adopted.

roadman65

Quote from: storm2k on November 14, 2023, 11:10:41 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on November 13, 2023, 08:29:46 PM
You got that right roadman65 ! The one time I ever drove the whole length of the ACE back in 2011, I was amazed at the bad non-MUTCD signage. Never seen that anywhere else in modern times on a major road like that. Even New York City with all its issues has pretty good MUTCD signage including on its older roads.

Honestly, a lot of Parkway signage before the 2010s was all over the place and of much varying levels of what you would call MUTCD compliance. Plenty of photos of classic NJ Highway Authority signage exists to be found out there (ALPSRoads has a ton of it), it really was a wild assortment of signage practices that would never pass muster. Now the signage is mostly consistent and uses the same "mostly MUTCD" standards that the Turnpike Autority has adopted.

I grew up along the Parkway and thought the substandard signage was the norm in highway signage. Plus before 1980, when the Parkway was six lanes from 129-140, the NJDOT had small substandard guides they use on arterials as guides. Exit 135 in Clark had a small sign at the current maintenance yard on SB side that read  RAHWAY CLARK WESTFIELD NEXT RIGHT as the only advanced guide in that direction and the Exit 135 at exit guide ( as all at exit guides) was in the gore. 

In fact up until 2010, the Exit 82 guide for NJ 37 East was in the gore using Island Heights and Seaside Heights with no shield on it ( as the NJ 37 shields were on stand alone signs across the ramps) and even a JCT shield was in use prior to Exits 82-82A.

That was how NJDOT signed the free sections. The tolled sections used the gore exits of today but with an arrow in a circle outside the top right corner of the sign. Plus exit numbers on the NJHA sections used a number atop the sign but no Exit X tabs. You could tell what sections the NJ Highway Authority maintained from the state parts as the Highway Authority at least used larger signs as NJDOT used small upper case signs and stand alone shields for route numbers.

Even I-78 in Greenwich Township for Exit 6 had a small ASBURY NEXT RIGHT guide as well as a gore ASBURY with an upward right arrow and no exit numbers then as NJDOT didn't follow protocol on freeway guides all the way. In fact I-80 still uses substandard signs along the old US 611 part in Knowlton to this day. Hainesburg Road is still signed without an exit number on a typical off freeway sign and no advanced mention.

Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

storm2k

Those small NJDOT guide signs were a thing all over the place. Prior to the 1998 signage replacement project on 287 between 440 and Exit 14 (that also eliminated all the experimental directional signage in that stretch), there was nothing but a tiny LGS with an Exit 6 tab for the Easton Ave exit that persisted for decades.

roadman65

#4529
Quote from: storm2k on November 14, 2023, 11:48:47 AM
Those small NJDOT guide signs were a thing all over the place. Prior to the 1998 signage replacement project on 287 between 440 and Exit 14 (that also eliminated all the experimental directional signage in that stretch), there was nothing but a tiny LGS with an Exit 6 tab for the Easton Ave exit that persisted for decades.

And the SB US 202/206 exit ( present Exit 17) had no control cities on those experimental signs, but small SOMERVILLE PRINCETON signs for ages even after NJDOT erected the newer gantries that started the phase out of those experimental signs that added Somerville and Flemington as the official control cities with a West US 22 shield on them. Prior to that US 22 West had ground mount shields at present day Exit 17.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/C4JrGbzQ8skizEze7

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nfUSuQ4DarSw8baE6

Looks like history is repeating itself. A newer version of the old diagram signs has returned. However, the small upper case  Somerville and Princeton signs are gone, but Princeton needs to be signed on supplementary signs to follow up as Princeton is still being used from US 202/206 SB to I-287 SB in Bedminster to control motorists interest to bypass Pluckemin on US 202/206.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadman65

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hdijErrwgEGt3wTx5
They removed the NORTH header for US 202/206 on the NB I-287 guide as you can also access US 202/206 SB as well as NB if you go north on I-287. However the past way of signing NB only probably was better as most I-78 EB traffic for US 202/206 SB are headed for Somerville and points south along either route.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Alps

Quote from: CrystalWalrein on November 13, 2023, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 06, 2023, 06:35:34 PM
How about the ACE? Is the South Jersey Transportation Authority ever going to replace all the guide signs on the Expressway? To this day most signs are still upper case with out of date controls not up to current demands. The Exit 7 cloverleaf needs better signs and to cut back on the several control cities EB for SB and remove the Exit 7N PARKWAY NORTH guide EB for NB.

There actually aren't that many all-caps signs left. SJTA have been replacing them piecemeal with more MUTCD-compliant signage, but they're quite flimsy and still rely on nearly all-wood supports. These are expected to be replaced with gantries when the Atlantic City Expressway is widened past exit 31. The signage near the Garden State Parkway hasn't been replaced, but they anticipate a flyover being built in the future.

Also, back in 2020 the SJTA started sharing responsibility for maintaining US 30 and I-676 with NJDOT and have even erected their own signage on both roads. From the language in the board meeting minutes, it seems like SJTA might take on full responsibility for both roads in the future.
That's an interesting one I didn't know about. That explains some of what I've seen there though! (US 30 west of US 130 only)

storm2k

Quote from: roadman65 on November 14, 2023, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: storm2k on November 14, 2023, 11:48:47 AM
Those small NJDOT guide signs were a thing all over the place. Prior to the 1998 signage replacement project on 287 between 440 and Exit 14 (that also eliminated all the experimental directional signage in that stretch), there was nothing but a tiny LGS with an Exit 6 tab for the Easton Ave exit that persisted for decades.

And the SB US 202/206 exit ( present Exit 17) had no control cities on those experimental signs, but small SOMERVILLE PRINCETON signs for ages even after NJDOT erected the newer gantries that started the phase out of those experimental signs that added Somerville and Flemington as the official control cities with a West US 22 shield on them. Prior to that US 22 West had ground mount shields at present day Exit 17.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/C4JrGbzQ8skizEze7

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nfUSuQ4DarSw8baE6

Looks like history is repeating itself. A newer version of the old diagram signs has returned. However, the small upper case  Somerville and Princeton signs are gone, but Princeton needs to be signed on supplementary signs to follow up as Princeton is still being used from US 202/206 SB to I-287 SB in Bedminster to control motorists interest to bypass Pluckemin on US 202/206.

These signs have been there since 1997.

roadman65

Quote from: storm2k on November 14, 2023, 10:04:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 14, 2023, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: storm2k on November 14, 2023, 11:48:47 AM
Those small NJDOT guide signs were a thing all over the place. Prior to the 1998 signage replacement project on 287 between 440 and Exit 14 (that also eliminated all the experimental directional signage in that stretch), there was nothing but a tiny LGS with an Exit 6 tab for the Easton Ave exit that persisted for decades.

And the SB US 202/206 exit ( present Exit 17) had no control cities on those experimental signs, but small SOMERVILLE PRINCETON signs for ages even after NJDOT erected the newer gantries that started the phase out of those experimental signs that added Somerville and Flemington as the official control cities with a West US 22 shield on them. Prior to that US 22 West had ground mount shields at present day Exit 17.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/C4JrGbzQ8skizEze7

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nfUSuQ4DarSw8baE6

Looks like history is repeating itself. A newer version of the old diagram signs has returned. However, the small upper case  Somerville and Princeton signs are gone, but Princeton needs to be signed on supplementary signs to follow up as Princeton is still being used from US 202/206 SB to I-287 SB in Bedminster to control motorists interest to bypass Pluckemin on US 202/206.

These signs have been there since 1997.
Whether it's 1997 or 2017, they didn't abandoned the idea totally.

Obviously to some degree that experiment worked and NJDOT copied it over.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Dough4872

https://whyy.org/articles/trenton-route-29-boulevard-project-funding/ It appears they want to convert part of the NJ 29 freeway in Trenton into a realigned boulevard to restore access to the Delaware River waterfront.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Dough4872 on November 16, 2023, 06:30:56 PM
https://whyy.org/articles/trenton-route-29-boulevard-project-funding/ It appears they want to convert part of the NJ 29 freeway in Trenton into a realigned boulevard to restore access to the Delaware River waterfront.

As mentioned in the article it's been talked about before, most recently early last decade.  Then, they mostly wanted to convert 29 to a urban boulevard between US 1 & Calhoun Streets...which is as far away from Trenton's population as one could get. They would use a parking lot off of Market Street to build housing.  Yet, there's two office buildings there, and that lot is for their parking.  No word on where they would park, other than the urbanism "make them take mass transit".

The picture in the article of the Trenton Tunnel does, ironically, have a park on top.  And is near housing.  So how is that bringing people back to Trenton?

Trenton has many problems.  No one left because 29 was built.  And no one is going to move in because they have access to the river to walk along.  Which often, isn't part of the proposed projects - that would need to come later from other sources of funding that never seems to be mentioned.

Alps

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 16, 2023, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on November 16, 2023, 06:30:56 PM
https://whyy.org/articles/trenton-route-29-boulevard-project-funding/ It appears they want to convert part of the NJ 29 freeway in Trenton into a realigned boulevard to restore access to the Delaware River waterfront.

As mentioned in the article it's been talked about before, most recently early last decade.  Then, they mostly wanted to convert 29 to a urban boulevard between US 1 & Calhoun Streets...which is as far away from Trenton's population as one could get. They would use a parking lot off of Market Street to build housing.  Yet, there's two office buildings there, and that lot is for their parking.  No word on where they would park, other than the urbanism "make them take mass transit".

The picture in the article of the Trenton Tunnel does, ironically, have a park on top.  And is near housing.  So how is that bringing people back to Trenton?

Trenton has many problems.  No one left because 29 was built.  And no one is going to move in because they have access to the river to walk along.  Which often, isn't part of the proposed projects - that would need to come later from other sources of funding that never seems to be mentioned.
From a traffic POV it's not the end of the world - 29 really isn't that bad at peak hours compared to so many other roads across the state, and there are traffic lights to deal with already at either end of the freeway part they're looking at.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Alps on November 17, 2023, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 16, 2023, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on November 16, 2023, 06:30:56 PM
https://whyy.org/articles/trenton-route-29-boulevard-project-funding/ It appears they want to convert part of the NJ 29 freeway in Trenton into a realigned boulevard to restore access to the Delaware River waterfront.

As mentioned in the article it's been talked about before, most recently early last decade.  Then, they mostly wanted to convert 29 to a urban boulevard between US 1 & Calhoun Streets...which is as far away from Trenton's population as one could get. They would use a parking lot off of Market Street to build housing.  Yet, there's two office buildings there, and that lot is for their parking.  No word on where they would park, other than the urbanism "make them take mass transit".

The picture in the article of the Trenton Tunnel does, ironically, have a park on top.  And is near housing.  So how is that bringing people back to Trenton?

Trenton has many problems.  No one left because 29 was built.  And no one is going to move in because they have access to the river to walk along.  Which often, isn't part of the proposed projects - that would need to come later from other sources of funding that never seems to be mentioned.
From a traffic POV it's not the end of the world - 29 really isn't that bad at peak hours compared to so many other roads across the state, and there are traffic lights to deal with already at either end of the freeway part they're looking at.

Two things make the lights at Cass & Warren bad:

1) The offset.  The heavier flow of traffic in the morning is Northbound into Trenton.  Prior to the pandemic, the offset allowed nearly all of the traffic that made it thru the 1st light (At Cass) to make it thru the 2nd light (At Warren).  During the pandemic, the offset changed, where most of the traffic that makes it thru the first light hits the red at the 2nd light, decreasing throughput in the morning rush.  The only reason why traffic isn't worse currently is due to most state workers being allowed to work 3 days in the office and 2 days at home.  If there was no remote work-at-home program, congestion would be significantly worse.  The fix: modify the signal timing, should be easy.  I tried writing DOT about the offset issue, including referencing the pre-pandemic flow of traffic, to no avail.

2) The afternoon rush, as traffic leaves Trenton, is constrained by the 3 lanes of traffic at the Warren light reducing to 2 lanes at the Cass Street light, creating congestion here.  Don't know why they didn't keep it 3 lanes thru both lights then lose a lane before the tunnel when traffic free-flows towards 195/295.  Obviously, a lot more expensive to fix.

ixnay

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 17, 2023, 11:43:43 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 17, 2023, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 16, 2023, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on November 16, 2023, 06:30:56 PM
https://whyy.org/articles/trenton-route-29-boulevard-project-funding/ It appears they want to convert part of the NJ 29 freeway in Trenton into a realigned boulevard to restore access to the Delaware River waterfront.

As mentioned in the article it's been talked about before, most recently early last decade.  Then, they mostly wanted to convert 29 to a urban boulevard between US 1 & Calhoun Streets...which is as far away from Trenton's population as one could get. They would use a parking lot off of Market Street to build housing.  Yet, there's two office buildings there, and that lot is for their parking.  No word on where they would park, other than the urbanism "make them take mass transit".

The picture in the article of the Trenton Tunnel does, ironically, have a park on top.  And is near housing.  So how is that bringing people back to Trenton?

Trenton has many problems.  No one left because 29 was built.  And no one is going to move in because they have access to the river to walk along.  Which often, isn't part of the proposed projects - that would need to come later from other sources of funding that never seems to be mentioned.
From a traffic POV it's not the end of the world - 29 really isn't that bad at peak hours compared to so many other roads across the state, and there are traffic lights to deal with already at either end of the freeway part they're looking at.

Two things make the lights at Cass & Warren bad:

1) The offset.  The heavier flow of traffic in the morning is Northbound into Trenton.  Prior to the pandemic, the offset allowed nearly all of the traffic that made it thru the 1st light (At Cass) to make it thru the 2nd light (At Warren).  During the pandemic, the offset changed, where most of the traffic that makes it thru the first light hits the red at the 2nd light, decreasing throughput in the morning rush.  The only reason why traffic isn't worse currently is due to most state workers being allowed to work 3 days in the office and 2 days at home.  If there was no remote work-at-home program, congestion would be significantly worse.  The fix: modify the signal timing, should be easy.  I tried writing DOT about the offset issue, including referencing the pre-pandemic flow of traffic, to no avail.

2) The afternoon rush, as traffic leaves Trenton, is constrained by the 3 lanes of traffic at the Warren light reducing to 2 lanes at the Cass Street light, creating congestion here.  Don't know why they didn't keep it 3 lanes thru both lights then lose a lane before the tunnel when traffic free-flows towards 195/295.  Obviously, a lot more expensive to fix.

I guess "offset" is one of those traffic engineer/anaylist's terms.  What does it mean?

jeffandnicole

Quote from: ixnay on November 18, 2023, 07:18:47 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 17, 2023, 11:43:43 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 17, 2023, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 16, 2023, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on November 16, 2023, 06:30:56 PM
https://whyy.org/articles/trenton-route-29-boulevard-project-funding/ It appears they want to convert part of the NJ 29 freeway in Trenton into a realigned boulevard to restore access to the Delaware River waterfront.

As mentioned in the article it's been talked about before, most recently early last decade.  Then, they mostly wanted to convert 29 to a urban boulevard between US 1 & Calhoun Streets...which is as far away from Trenton's population as one could get. They would use a parking lot off of Market Street to build housing.  Yet, there's two office buildings there, and that lot is for their parking.  No word on where they would park, other than the urbanism "make them take mass transit".

The picture in the article of the Trenton Tunnel does, ironically, have a park on top.  And is near housing.  So how is that bringing people back to Trenton?

Trenton has many problems.  No one left because 29 was built.  And no one is going to move in because they have access to the river to walk along.  Which often, isn't part of the proposed projects - that would need to come later from other sources of funding that never seems to be mentioned.
From a traffic POV it's not the end of the world - 29 really isn't that bad at peak hours compared to so many other roads across the state, and there are traffic lights to deal with already at either end of the freeway part they're looking at.

Two things make the lights at Cass & Warren bad:

1) The offset.  The heavier flow of traffic in the morning is Northbound into Trenton.  Prior to the pandemic, the offset allowed nearly all of the traffic that made it thru the 1st light (At Cass) to make it thru the 2nd light (At Warren).  During the pandemic, the offset changed, where most of the traffic that makes it thru the first light hits the red at the 2nd light, decreasing throughput in the morning rush.  The only reason why traffic isn't worse currently is due to most state workers being allowed to work 3 days in the office and 2 days at home.  If there was no remote work-at-home program, congestion would be significantly worse.  The fix: modify the signal timing, should be easy.  I tried writing DOT about the offset issue, including referencing the pre-pandemic flow of traffic, to no avail.

2) The afternoon rush, as traffic leaves Trenton, is constrained by the 3 lanes of traffic at the Warren light reducing to 2 lanes at the Cass Street light, creating congestion here.  Don't know why they didn't keep it 3 lanes thru both lights then lose a lane before the tunnel when traffic free-flows towards 195/295.  Obviously, a lot more expensive to fix.

I guess "offset" is one of those traffic engineer/anaylist's terms.  What does it mean?


I learned the term from talking with NJDOT about these lights in the past (and to be fair, this may not be the absolute term, but one that NJDOT uses). 

Coordinated lights are programmed where if traffic goes thru one green light, then next light or lights in succession should also be green, allowing traffic to flow thru unimpeded.  The offset is the timed, programmed intervals between intersections.

Tradephoric posted many years ago a video from Metro Detroit where a 20 mile stretch of road has traffic lights timed so one shouldn't hit a single red, or if they enter the roadway they may hit one red light at the next intersection, then the rest are green.  https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12835.msg310031#msg310031 .

It's easier said than done sometimes - if the lights are relatively close together with few access points between lights, the coordination should work.  If we're talking over a mile between lights, coordination doesn't work as well.  If there's numerous areas where traffic can be disrupted between lights (driveways, parking lots, minor intersections where traffic may be forced to slow on occasion), then it's tough for traffic to maintain the speed needed to hit each green light.  If the lights are set for the speed limit but the average speed is significantly higher, then it doesn't work as well.  If one direction of roadway has lights timed well, chances are the other direction won't, unless the lights are spaced at even intervals (think a city grid). 

I have a road near me where there's about 5 or 6 lights at nearly evenly spaced intervals, just over 1/2 mile apart on a 45 & 50 mph roadway.  If you happen to hit the first light mid-late in its green cycle, you probably will make it thru all the lights.  If you happen to hit a red light at first, you're almost guaranteed to hit every red light.  And they're not changing just before you get to the next intersection, they're changing 15 seconds before you get there, so speed isn't a factor.  They were programmed better in the past, but for whatever reason, one of the offsets changed, and it's been a problem ever since.  It doesn't help that one or two of the intersections have sensors that don't work, so the light cycles at max length regardless of traffic being present.

roadman65

https://maps.app.goo.gl/vKd49HejNmz2XXkQ6
If NJDOT owned this sign, there would be a TO US 6 shield next to I-384 EAST being I-384 don't do directly to Providence.

Goes to show how bad engineers in the Garden State have evolved in signing techniques.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bzakharin

Quote from: roadman65 on November 20, 2023, 10:21:40 AM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vKd49HejNmz2XXkQ6
If NJDOT owned this sign, there would be a TO US 6 shield next to I-384 EAST being I-384 don't do directly to Providence.

Goes to show how bad engineers in the Garden State have evolved in signing techniques.
NJDOT probably wouldn't sign Providence there at all, since it's out of state and not right on the state line.

Dough4872


MASTERNC

Quote from: Dough4872 on November 27, 2023, 05:40:17 PM
https://www.nj.gov/transportation/uploads/comm/news/details/comm_np_20231127_133335_MissingMovesrampstoopentomorrowasprojectcompletes.pdf The new ramps at I-295 and NJ 42 are opening tomorrow.

Just heard the same thing on the local traffic report. One step closer to remedying that mess of an interchange.

Alps


The Ghostbuster

Why wasn't a full interchange between Interstate 76/Interstate 295/NJ 42 constructed in the first place?

Alps

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2023, 06:21:06 PM
Why wasn't a full interchange between Interstate 76/Interstate 295/NJ 42 constructed in the first place?
In the 1950s full interchanges were omitted wherever convenient. See I-295 south of there for more examples.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 27, 2023, 06:21:06 PM
Why wasn't a full interchange between Interstate 76/Interstate 295/NJ 42 constructed in the first place?

A long answer - and one that can best be construed as an estimated example of what happened, because to be frank, most of the people involved in the design of the original interchange are dead and what's publicly available doesn't dive into the actual decision making that was done.

From what I can picture, there was a sense at the time that the great majority of traffic was coming up from south of the interchange, going towards Philadelphia.  The Ben Franklin Bridge was there.  The Walt Whitman Bridge just opened.  The Commodore Barry Bridge *wasn't* there.  295 was built to lead people to Philly, and to bring people back from Philly.  Thus, the whole express and local lane configuration.  And the former combined merges with 295 and Local I-76, rather than creating separate on and off ramps.

It wasn't imagined that motorists coming up from the south would want to get to Rt. 45 and Rt. 47 in significant volumes.  They could use 130 for that (and even then it wasn't a direct drive; 130 North leads traffic away from Rt. 45, and requires a u-turn to get to Rt. 45).  Rt. 42 was a relatively late addition to the road network, but engineers appeared to share the same thought process - that motorists coming up 295 would want to go to Philly, and not need access to 42.  There were enough county roads to handle traffic, and other roads and widenings of existing roads would facilitate the east-west movements.

South Jersey, south of 76, grew.  A need to replace the 322 Chester-Bridgeport Ferry occurred, and the Commodore Barry Bridge was built.  The region was growing, but road widenings were tempering.  Suburb-to-suburb commuting was growing at a faster rate than suburb-to-city traffic.

But all along, the directional interchanges on 295 remained and the mess of the 295/76/42 interchange existed.  The residential population that had already been there, which of itself had some significant history, was carved thru for the new highway.  A large cemetary also existed in the area (in fact, I have grandparents buried there). The original interchange, already shoehorned into the area, meant little room was available to easily resolve the problem.  The resulting change to the main interchange that's still ongoing took out some homes, but relatively few for the area. 

The Missing Moves ramps didn't result in any residential takings, but some commercial properties were acquired. There was one large company trying to build a shopping center that had some significant sway in the project, and caused about a 15 year delay.  And they're still complaining, which is one of the reasons why NJDOT is looking at building a Leaf Ave extension to Creek Road to service traffic going to and from Rt. 42 from Creek Road.

So that's a very basic, high-level view of what happened 70 years ago, and how we got to where we are today. 

roadman65

Quote from: bzakharin on November 21, 2023, 03:58:47 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 20, 2023, 10:21:40 AM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vKd49HejNmz2XXkQ6
If NJDOT owned this sign, there would be a TO US 6 shield next to I-384 EAST being I-384 don't do directly to Providence.

Goes to show how bad engineers in the Garden State have evolved in signing techniques.
NJDOT probably wouldn't sign Providence there at all, since it's out of state and not right on the state line.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zWDxTib9JSYpF7tM6
I say that cause of this here not signing I-195 to Trenton without a Route 29 shield because NJDOT has our very own Highwaystar's mentality.  I-70 don't end in Baltimore so don't use Baltimore on I-70. I-195 don't end in Trenton, but continuing NJ 29 does go there so co-sign it with a transitional TO.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

storm2k

Thought I had posted this, but I guess I didn't. NJDOT finally completed the last bits of the Exit 21A ramp repairs from 287 NB to 78 EB. This was around 3 weeks ago. All barriers are removed, and the ramp is back to its original (reconstructed) configuration of two lanes, with hopefully no more sinkholes in its future.



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