New Jersey Turnpike

[roadman65]

"Why have the road become 3+3, and then have both the inner and outer 3's have exit 6?"

1: Future-proofing - if the dual dual section is extended southward, no additional road work is needed for the northbound exits.
2: Operational considerations - the whole point of fully separate roadways is that, when necessary, one of them can be closed with the other one handling all the traffic. If the car only roadway is closed, traffic still has access to exit 6. If the outer car+truck roadway is closed, traffic still has access to exit 6.

What he was saying is have the same m/o as Exit 14 SB before the current configuration that it now has. The original SB Exit 14 only departed from the outer roadway and still actually does for the Eastern Spur. The split for the inner- outer on the Eastern Spur has Exit 14 split from the outer roadway immediately after the split, but before the western spur merges.

So we're questioning why they didn't design Interchange 6 by copying a poor design from decades ago which had a very obvious operating deficiency and has since been corrected.

And i thought I wrote absurd stuff.

I’m trying to relay to a third party what the second party was suggesting.  I see now that the former Exit 9 and present 6 have done by having two separate ramps to avoid the problem at the NOrth end of the 3+3+3+3 that is been corrected.

The northern end also has the dual configuration, but in a different form. Instead of building the 12 lanes to Exit 18, they opted for a second alignment instead giving the 12 ( 10 north of Route 3) in that configuration.

[bluecountry]

When the outer roadway was closed in the past, the flip panels at the East and West Spurs did allow local use for the outer roadway to access Exit 14 just as if the Eastern Spur gets closed, NB traffic is allowed to use the closed Eastern Spur up to the 15E split.

The flip panels for the closed Eastern Spur reflect partial usage to Exit 15E when in that configuration and the pull through flips at 15E would change from THRU TRAFFIC next exit 5 miles to ROAD CLOSED.  Ditto for the outer roadway SB for 14 to 14C.

So that's why they did the split before exit 6 with exits for 6 on both; in case either the car or car/truck is closed?

[jeffandnicole]

When the outer roadway was closed in the past, the flip panels at the East and West Spurs did allow local use for the outer roadway to access Exit 14 just as if the Eastern Spur gets closed, NB traffic is allowed to use the closed Eastern Spur up to the 15E split.

The flip panels for the closed Eastern Spur reflect partial usage to Exit 15E when in that configuration and the pull through flips at 15E would change from THRU TRAFFIC next exit 5 miles to ROAD CLOSED.  Ditto for the outer roadway SB for 14 to 14C.

So that's why they did the split before exit 6 with exits for 6 on both; in case either the car or car/truck is closed?

In part, yes. It's also much harder to convey to motorists, when both roadways are open, that they must use a specific roadway if the exit exists on only one roadway. Motorists will invariably miss the signage and will be on the wrong roadway, unable to access the ramp.

[SignBridge]

I seem to remember many years ago when the original dual roadways ended south of Exit-10, only the outer roadway northbound could access Exit-10 and the signs did show that. But I guess as J&N points out, some drivers probably missed it.

[1995hoo]

I seem to remember many years ago when the original dual roadways ended south of Exit-10, only the outer roadway northbound could access Exit-10 and the signs did show that. But I guess as J&N points out, some drivers probably missed it.

Here you go.

[Alps]

Any reason why the NJTP NB divides into 3+3 just before exit 6, and SB the divide ends just after?

Usually the road would continue as 3 lanes then when the PATP/95 enters at exit 6 it would become 3+3.

It's so that the mainline is continuous, rather than have people make multiple decisions at the interchange (exit or stay on 95, then deal with merge). They wanted to separate the decision points by a mile for safety.

[roadman65]

I seem to remember many years ago when the original dual roadways ended south of Exit-10, only the outer roadway northbound could access Exit-10 and the signs did show that. But I guess as J&N points out, some drivers probably missed it.

Maybe cars were missing Exit 14 in Newark that they moved back 1.5 miles the exit.  Wonder if the eastern spur has Exit 14 traffic think the car lanes have a Exit 14 ramp?

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Also the removal of the mileage sign SB at the 91.9 mm is another distasteful thing. https://goo.gl/maps/JzfwJtsL2rBf15VY9
https://goo.gl/maps/pTbPwysUsoi3oVm37

[Dough4872]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Also the removal of the mileage sign SB at the 91.9 mm is another distasteful thing. https://goo.gl/maps/JzfwJtsL2rBf15VY9
https://goo.gl/maps/pTbPwysUsoi3oVm37

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

[Rothman]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Also the removal of the mileage sign SB at the 91.9 mm is another distasteful thing. https://goo.gl/maps/JzfwJtsL2rBf15VY9
https://goo.gl/maps/pTbPwysUsoi3oVm37

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

Hm.  I've noticed pretty good compliance with the lane restrictions in the past.  Wonder if this is more about drivers being just "steering wheel holders" in those cabs rather than truly trained truckers.

[Jim]

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

Hm.  I've noticed pretty good compliance with the lane restrictions in the past.  Wonder if this is more about drivers being just "steering wheel holders" in those cabs rather than truly trained truckers.

Possibly on their way to hit the railroad overpass in Glenville.

[jeffandnicole]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

Whenever there's an issue that forces a ramp to the truck lanes to be closed, trucks are allowed to use the car lanes. Once in the car lanes, they can remain in the car lanes.  In the cast of the OP's GSV, the truck is moving southbound just south of Interchange 9.  A ramp closure to the truck lanes at Interchanges 14, 13A, 13, 12, 11, 10 or 9 would have permitted the truck to enter the car lanes without penalty.

To Dough's question:  Probably due to an earlier incident, or the ramp closure reason above.  There's no benefit to trucks to use the car only lanes for no reason since all exits can be reached and the speed limit is the same.

[chrisg69911]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Also the removal of the mileage sign SB at the 91.9 mm is another distasteful thing. https://goo.gl/maps/JzfwJtsL2rBf15VY9
https://goo.gl/maps/pTbPwysUsoi3oVm37

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

I've noticed on Google maps that basically every night one of the carriageways of the turnpike is closed, sometimes two, which would lead to trucks in the cars lane

[1995hoo]

The fact that they close carriageways for various reasons is probably why the Turnpike Authority doesn't generally refer to them as the "car lanes" or the "truck lanes" (except on signage, where it's necessary for clarity).

[jeffandnicole]

The fact that they close carriageways for various reasons is probably why the Turnpike Authority doesn't generally refer to them as the "car lanes" or the "truck lanes" (except on signage, where it's necessary for clarity).

Technically, they don't usually say that on signage either.  Usually it's "Cars Only" and "Trucks-Buses-Cars", or "All Traffic" when one of the roadways is closed.

[1995hoo]

The fact that they close carriageways for various reasons is probably why the Turnpike Authority doesn't generally refer to them as the "car lanes" or the "truck lanes" (except on signage, where it's necessary for clarity).

Technically, they don't usually say that on signage either.  Usually it's "Cars Only" and "Trucks-Buses-Cars", or "All Traffic" when one of the roadways is closed.

Right, but I assumed everyone was familiar enough with the signs' verbiage that I didn't need to be quite that precise.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Also the removal of the mileage sign SB at the 91.9 mm is another distasteful thing. https://goo.gl/maps/JzfwJtsL2rBf15VY9
https://goo.gl/maps/pTbPwysUsoi3oVm37

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

I've noticed on Google maps that basically every night one of the carriageways of the turnpike is closed, sometimes two, which would lead to trucks in the cars lane

But in my post, the truck lanes were open and filled to capacity.

[Alps]

The fact that they close carriageways for various reasons is probably why the Turnpike Authority doesn't generally refer to them as the "car lanes" or the "truck lanes" (except on signage, where it's necessary for clarity).

Yup. Inner Roadway and Outer Roadway. Makes it easier to figure out what to do when you're looking at plans.

[jeffandnicole]

The fact that they close carriageways for various reasons is probably why the Turnpike Authority doesn't generally refer to them as the "car lanes" or the "truck lanes" (except on signage, where it's necessary for clarity).

Technically, they don't usually say that on signage either.  Usually it's "Cars Only" and "Trucks-Buses-Cars", or "All Traffic" when one of the roadways is closed.

Right, but I assumed everyone was familiar enough with the signs' verbiage that I didn't need to be quite that precise.

We've had people on these forums who call them the Express Lanes and Local Lanes.  And the 'Bus' language on these signs is often forgotten.  So just specifying what's actually written on the signage, because even many on here do get it wrong.

[Flyer78]

https://goo.gl/maps/wo4Tx6oG1wr8BvQL7
A truck in the Cars Only lanes.

Shame shame.

Also the removal of the mileage sign SB at the 91.9 mm is another distasteful thing. https://goo.gl/maps/JzfwJtsL2rBf15VY9
https://goo.gl/maps/pTbPwysUsoi3oVm37

Last month I was in the cars only lane along the New Jersey Turnpike and saw a number of trucks in the lanes. I was wondering what was going on in how many trucks got into the car lanes. Do you think it's because the other lanes may have been closed for an earlier incident or that the trucks are just getting around the rules and there's no enforcement?

I've noticed on Google maps that basically every night one of the carriageways of the turnpike is closed, sometimes two, which would lead to trucks in the cars lane

But in my post, the truck lanes were open and filled to capacity.

But a ramp upstream to the outer lanes may have been closed.

[bluecountry]

When the outer roadway was closed in the past, the flip panels at the East and West Spurs did allow local use for the outer roadway to access Exit 14 just as if the Eastern Spur gets closed, NB traffic is allowed to use the closed Eastern Spur up to the 15E split.

The flip panels for the closed Eastern Spur reflect partial usage to Exit 15E when in that configuration and the pull through flips at 15E would change from THRU TRAFFIC next exit 5 miles to ROAD CLOSED.  Ditto for the outer roadway SB for 14 to 14C.

So that's why they did the split before exit 6 with exits for 6 on both; in case either the car or car/truck is closed?

In part, yes. It's also much harder to convey to motorists, when both roadways are open, that they must use a specific roadway if the exit exists on only one roadway. Motorists will invariably miss the signage and will be on the wrong roadway, unable to access the ramp.

I think you missed my point, coming from the south on the NJTP north, why not have it where it continues as three lanes, then has exit 6, and then after exit 6 motorists decide if they are in the inner or outer as PATP/95 traffic is added?  Why split them, then have exits on both roadways vs keep them as one roadway, exit 6, then split?

I seem to remember many years ago when the original dual roadways ended south of Exit-10, only the outer roadway northbound could access Exit-10 and the signs did show that. But I guess as J&N points out, some drivers probably missed it.

Here you go.

That would not be the case here.
Coming from the south it would be one roadway until exit 6 merges.
Coming from the north, BOTH the inner and outer would have access to exit 6 but as soon as exit 6 traffic leaves the NJTP, the merge would begin as opposed to now where the roadway stay split for a few more miles.

Any reason why the NJTP NB divides into 3+3 just before exit 6, and SB the divide ends just after?

Usually the road would continue as 3 lanes then when the PATP/95 enters at exit 6 it would become 3+3.

It's so that the mainline is continuous, rather than have people make multiple decisions at the interchange (exit or stay on 95, then deal with merge). They wanted to separate the decision points by a mile for safety.

That is less an issue going SB, since the lanes merge so you have but one choice, merge.

[lstone19]

I think you missed my point, coming from the south on the NJTP north, why not have it where it continues as three lanes, then has exit 6, and then after exit 6 motorists decide if they are in the inner or outer as PATP/95 traffic is added?  Why split them, then have exits on both roadways vs keep them as one roadway, exit 6, then split?

Perhaps, because the initial dual-dual was extended south, then extended south again, and yet again(? - I've lost track), the Turnpike decided to build Exit 6 as a full dual-dual interchange expecting that eventually, the dual-dual will be extended south even further. Why build it one way only to need to tear it apart and redo it in a few years? Their first belief that it was only needed to Exit 10 proved to be wrong so why believe that Exit 6 is as far as it will ever be needed.

Coming from the south it would be one roadway until exit 6 merges.

Seriously, you want one roadway until after the the 6 on-ramp merges? That would be a major CF of a weaving section. If 6 has so much traffic to/from the north that extending the dual-dual south of 6 will never be needed, then a weaving section is the last thing you need. And if 6 does not have so much traffic that a weaving section is OK, then the dual-dual will need to be extended further south. You can't have it both ways.

[jeffandnicole]

In part, yes. It's also much harder to convey to motorists, when both roadways are open, that they must use a specific roadway if the exit exists on only one roadway. Motorists will invariably miss the signage and will be on the wrong roadway, unable to access the ramp.

I think you missed my point, coming from the south on the NJTP north, why not have it where it continues as three lanes, then has exit 6, and then after exit 6 motorists decide if they are in the inner or outer as PATP/95 traffic is added?  Why split them, then have exits on both roadways vs keep them as one roadway, exit 6, then split?

That idea is even worse.  Answer below...

That would not be the case here.
Coming from the south it would be one roadway until exit 6 merges.
Coming from the north, BOTH the inner and outer would have access to exit 6 but as soon as exit 6 traffic leaves the NJTP, the merge would begin as opposed to now where the roadway stay split for a few more miles.

Any reason why the NJTP NB divides into 3+3 just before exit 6, and SB the divide ends just after?

Usually the road would continue as 3 lanes then when the PATP/95 enters at exit 6 it would become 3+3.

It's so that the mainline is continuous, rather than have people make multiple decisions at the interchange (exit or stay on 95, then deal with merge). They wanted to separate the decision points by a mile for safety.

That is less an issue going SB, since the lanes merge so you have but one choice, merge.

You're not understanding the reason to separate decision points.  Merging is still multiple decision points, especially when going from 6 lanes to 3.  Even if you try to do 'Exit Only' lanes at Exit 6, you still have to make a decision to merge.  With the Turnpike, they also have numerous signs in advance of the merge.  If you try doing it within the Interchange 6 area, you'll have either overlapping signs with the exit, or fewer signs in advance of the merge. 

A huge source of confusion and congestion is when these exits, on ramps, and adding/subtracting lanes occur in a small area.  The Turnpike built this widening, and especially the parts from below Exit 6 to Exit 7A, to avoid as much confusion and congestion as possible.  It works.  Traffic flows freely. It seems odd that anyone would want to take away from what has proven to be a very successful project.

I think you missed my point, coming from the south on the NJTP north, why not have it where it continues as three lanes, then has exit 6, and then after exit 6 motorists decide if they are in the inner or outer as PATP/95 traffic is added?  Why split them, then have exits on both roadways vs keep them as one roadway, exit 6, then split?

Perhaps, because the initial dual-dual was extended south, then extended south again, and yet again(? - I've lost track), the Turnpike decided to build Exit 6 as a full dual-dual interchange expecting that eventually, the dual-dual will be extended south even further. Why build it one way only to need to tear it apart and redo it in a few years? Their first belief that it was only needed to Exit 10 proved to be wrong so why believe that Exit 6 is as far as it will ever be needed.

Exit 10 was first, then quickly Exit 9.  Then Exit 8A.  Then Exit 6.

Early on, highways were in their infancy.  The Interstate highway system was being built.  Early on, it was drastically underestimated how much traffic would use these highways, which were built primarily to get traffic from city to city.   Suburban life, and sprawl, took over much faster and to a much greater extent than anyone in the 1950's imagined. 

The major fault of the dual-dual widening to Exit 8A was creating a 2-3-3-2 traffic pattern between Interchange 8A - 9. 

As suburban sprawl continued, congestion increased.  As more people traveled further for vacations, congestion increased south of 8A.  As the plans for the Somerset Freeway were officially cancelled, the Turnpike knew extending the duals down one more interchange wasn't going to suffice.  So thus the massive 25 mile widening occurred. 

The new duals from 6-9 have been open for 10 years now, and they appear to be flowing better than expected at this point in their lives.  Traffic from 4 - 6 is moving with rare congestion, unlike how 6 - 8A was moving 10 years after the duals from 8A - 9 opened.  It's going to take about 10 years from now to fully widen Interchanges 1 - 4.  After that, then we'll get a sense of what widening, if any, needs to occur between 4 - 6, but I can't imagine a need for anything more than 8 lanes there in the next 30 - 40 years, and the Turnpike won't build a 2-2-2-2 dual, which would mean narrowing down the total lanes available from 3 to 2 Northbound, and 6 to 2 southbound, if a roadway was closed.

[roadman65]

Which Exit 10? The original NB only that was in the western quadrant of the NJ Turnpike/ Garden State Parkway/ Main Street Triple stack or the current Edison Exit 10?

[SignBridge]

I think the changeover of Exit-10 must have been part of the original dual-dual construction project in the early 1970's. Interchange-11 was expanded to include the G.S. Parkway along with US 9. The original Exit-10 (with the G.S. Pky) was eliminated and the newly built interchange with the new I-287 became the new Exit-10.