Department of Redundancy Department

[JoePCool14]

"Interstate I-40"?

Yep. Even better, there was a typo on the next page where they referred to it is "1-40". Yes, that is a number one.

I also don't know if I've heard of a bridge or tunnel called a chokepoint in this manner.  Usually a chokepoint is a reduction of a lane, a toll plaza, a traffic light along a stretch of road that otherwise doesn't have any, or something else that causes congestion on a frequent or daily basis.

A chokepoint could also be a route that all traffic must use to get from two points. For example, the Dubuque, IA area has the issue of getting over the Mississippi River. There are only two options for crossing: US-20 into IL or US-151 into WI. Those could definitely be chokepoints if they were blocked, closed, etc.

[jakeroot]

I think bridges and tunnels can more easily become chokepoints over time, as they are typically the most expensive and time-consuming part of a freeway upgrade.

As an example, the 520 Evergreen Point Floating Bridge in Seattle was, for years (before replacement six years ago), the main chokepoint for westbound traffic as the 520 lost at least two lanes entering the old, narrow bridge. Down south in Clark County, the current I-5 bridges over the Columbia River, connecting WA and OR, is a chokepoint for WA travellers as I-5 is much wider in WA than the bridges it connects to. Both became chokepoints over time as the connecting roads were upgraded but without replacing the bridges.

Some consider Seattle's Alaskan Way Tunnel, opened 2019, as a chokepoint along WA-99, as both connecting roadways are three lanes each direction, one more than the tunnel's two in each direction. But in practice, it was designed like this on purpose, with lanes approaching the tunnel leaving the roadway through ramps rather than merging.

Perhaps my favorite tunnel chokepoint (said with a smirk) is the George Massey Tunnel south of Vancouver, BC. The tunnel is two lanes each direction, but BC-99 is three to four lanes in each direction approaching the tunnel. It was set to be replaced with a bridge by the last government, but those plans were scrapped and a new tunnel is being favoured.

[hbelkins]

The dictionary definition of "chokepoint" should be a picture of the Squirrel Hill Tunnel.

[mrsman]

I think bridges and tunnels can more easily become chokepoints over time, as they are typically the most expensive and time-consuming part of a freeway upgrade.

As an example, the 520 Evergreen Point Floating Bridge in Seattle was, for years (before replacement six years ago), the main chokepoint for westbound traffic as the 520 lost at least two lanes entering the old, narrow bridge. Down south in Clark County, the current I-5 bridges over the Columbia River, connecting WA and OR, is a chokepoint for WA travellers as I-5 is much wider in WA than the bridges it connects to. Both became chokepoints over time as the connecting roads were upgraded but without replacing the bridges.

Some consider Seattle's Alaskan Way Tunnel, opened 2019, as a chokepoint along WA-99, as both connecting roadways are three lanes each direction, one more than the tunnel's two in each direction. But in practice, it was designed like this on purpose, with lanes approaching the tunnel leaving the roadway through ramps rather than merging.

Perhaps my favorite tunnel chokepoint (said with a smirk) is the George Massey Tunnel south of Vancouver, BC. The tunnel is two lanes each direction, but BC-99 is three to four lanes in each direction approaching the tunnel. It was set to be replaced with a bridge by the last government, but those plans were scrapped and a new tunnel is being favoured.

Even in cases where the approach road has the same number of lanes as the bridge, a bridge can still be a chokepoint, especially in urban areas.  Consider a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction on both approaches and on the bridge itself.  Parallel roads do exist, but none cross the river.  To the extent that any of the side street traffic wants to cross the river, that traffic has to join the freeway for a short while.  So while there may be 4 lanes of traffic in each direction on land (3 for the freeway and 1 for the parallel road), there are only 3 for the bridge, the 3 lanes of the freeway alone.

[jakeroot]

Even in cases where the approach road has the same number of lanes as the bridge, a bridge can still be a chokepoint, especially in urban areas.  Consider a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction on both approaches and on the bridge itself.  Parallel roads do exist, but none cross the river.  To the extent that any of the side street traffic wants to cross the river, that traffic has to join the freeway for a short while.  So while there may be 4 lanes of traffic in each direction on land (3 for the freeway and 1 for the parallel road), there are only 3 for the bridge, the 3 lanes of the freeway alone.

Ahh, yes, of course. That's a very good point. Bridges and tunnels are chokepoints for the overall network. Maybe they are better called pinch points? Since traffic from several directions is pinched into one road.

[jeffandnicole]

When I made my comment, I was referring to a bridge not being a chokepoint as, in of itself, it's just a continuation of the roadway.  If there's a steep incline that causes traffic to slow, or a reduction in the lanes on the bridge, that would be related to the bridge itself.  But in cases where the bridge may be the only bridge around, or other roads feed into the bridge, technically the bridge is a defacto chokepoint, although the blame could really be placed on the fact that other bridges don't exist.

If I were to use some real-life examples:  The US 1 Bridge over the Delaware River is actually *wider* than the approach roadways for any distance on either side.  US 1 in PA is 2 lanes per direction right up to the interchange just east of the bridge.  US 1 in NJ is 2 lanes per direction about a mile west of the bridge.  The only chokepoint would be the toll plaza on the WB side.

When the Walt Whitman Bridge is running at 4 lanes in the direction you're traveling, it's not a chokepoint because the highway feeding into it is 3 lanes per direction, and a 4th lane is created by a lane approaching the bridge.  However, it does become a chokepoint when the zipper barrier only allows 3 lanes in any one direction, mostly because the main approach highway loses the lane, rather than the created lane.

The I-95 Bridge over the Susquehanna River is kind of a chokepoint. Not because of the lanes, as there's 3 lanes on the bridge along with 3 lanes on either side, but rather due to the lack of shoulders and the crosswinds that cause traffic to slow down.  Not to mention some motorists really don't like being on the outside lane of that bridge and use the middle lane at a reduced speed.  But on 95 in Maryland, even the service plazas in the center of the roadway are kind of like chokepoints, because of the left lane accel and decel lanes for the toll plaza.  Drive by there on a summer or holiday weekend when there's a lot of vacationers travelling and not as familiar with the roadway, and you'll see what I mean!

The Delaware Memorial Bridge can be a chokepoint due to the steepness of the incline.  Underpowered trucks have a bit of a tough climb getting to the top.  Although, when all 4 lanes are open, it's usually not an issue.

Jackroots examples are all good ones as to why bridges/tunnels are considered chokepoints.

Of course, maybe I just have a more narrow definition of a chokepoint compared to others! 

[hotdogPi]

I saw this on the US route state route thread. Surprisingly, the photo description was for the route shield and not for the ridiculous construction signage.



(formulanone)

[Dirt Roads]

Even in cases where the approach road has the same number of lanes as the bridge, a bridge can still be a chokepoint, especially in urban areas.  Consider a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction on both approaches and on the bridge itself.  Parallel roads do exist, but none cross the river.  To the extent that any of the side street traffic wants to cross the river, that traffic has to join the freeway for a short while.  So while there may be 4 lanes of traffic in each direction on land (3 for the freeway and 1 for the parallel road), there are only 3 for the bridge, the 3 lanes of the freeway alone.

Ahh, yes, of course. That's a very good point. Bridges and tunnels are chokepoints for the overall network. Maybe they are better called pinch points? Since traffic from several directions is pinched into one road.

In Pittsburgh, we used to tease the locals as having "tunnel vision".  In spite of signs reminding folks to maintain 55 mph in the Squirrel Hill tubes, somebody in both lanes invariably slows down to 30 or 35 mph and chokes down everything.  Much of the traffic problems on I-376 back 30 years ago was not due to capacity, but due to driver reaction to narrow lanes with no shoulders.  I suspect the "Maintain 55" signs have since come down due to the likelihood of congestion due to true capacity issues ahead.

[Mr_Northside]

Much of the traffic problems on I-376 back 30 years ago was not due to capacity, but due to driver reaction to narrow lanes with no shoulders.  I suspect the "Maintain 55" signs have since come down due to the likelihood of congestion due to true capacity issues ahead.

I don't recall ever seeing signs specify a speed (such as "Maintain 55"), but for all my recollection, there have been (and still are) signs stating to "Maintain speed thru tunnels"
https://goo.gl/maps/ucojD3tJPpqFMbLNA

[formulanone]

I saw this on the US route state route thread. Surprisingly, the photo description was for the route shield and not for the ridiculous construction signage.



(formulanone)

That's just how I roll. 😁 If I get a lot of variation from the same route, then I'll title that.

Even in cases where the approach road has the same number of lanes as the bridge, a bridge can still be a chokepoint, especially in urban areas.  Consider a freeway with 3 lanes in each direction on both approaches and on the bridge itself.  Parallel roads do exist, but none cross the river.  To the extent that any of the side street traffic wants to cross the river, that traffic has to join the freeway for a short while.  So while there may be 4 lanes of traffic in each direction on land (3 for the freeway and 1 for the parallel road), there are only 3 for the bridge, the 3 lanes of the freeway alone.

Ahh, yes, of course. That's a very good point. Bridges and tunnels are chokepoints for the overall network. Maybe they are better called pinch points? Since traffic from several directions is pinched into one road.

In Pittsburgh, we used to tease the locals as having "tunnel vision".  In spite of signs reminding folks to maintain 55 mph in the Squirrel Hill tubes, somebody in both lanes invariably slows down to 30 or 35 mph and chokes down everything.  Much of the traffic problems on I-376 back 30 years ago was not due to capacity, but due to driver reaction to narrow lanes with no shoulders.  I suspect the "Maintain 55" signs have since come down due to the likelihood of congestion due to true capacity issues ahead.

Still slightly better than the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel(s), which become a pair of 1-way stops in rush hour.

[CoreySamson]

You sure you aren't supposed to park here?

(Orange Beach, Alabama, on AL 182)

[Big John]

^^Those look like temporary no parking signs.

[empirestate]

In Pittsburgh, we used to tease the locals as having "tunnel vision".  In spite of signs reminding folks to maintain 55 mph in the Squirrel Hill tubes, somebody in both lanes invariably slows down to 30 or 35 mph and chokes down everything.

Well you see, the Squirrel Hill Tunnels eats cars for dinner. But its vision is based on movement, so you want to go through as slowly as possible to avoid being its next meal.

[tylert120]

3 No Outlet signs, 1 Dead End sign and 1 Do Not Enter Sign which certainly doesn't belong at the entrance to a public, two way roadway.

SR 2074 Hulton Rd, Penn Hills, PA
https://imgur.com/OOmff7T
Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/c4PZFNDZ1bgUKvDb6

[TheGrassGuy]

3 No Outlet signs, 1 Dead End sign and 1 Do Not Enter Sign which certainly doesn't belong at the entrance to a public, two way roadway.

SR 2074 Hulton Rd, Penn Hills, PA
https://imgur.com/OOmff7T
Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/c4PZFNDZ1bgUKvDb6

Not present in either of the two GSV images.

[tylert120]

3 No Outlet signs, 1 Dead End sign and 1 Do Not Enter Sign which certainly doesn't belong at the entrance to a public, two way roadway.

SR 2074 Hulton Rd, Penn Hills, PA
https://imgur.com/OOmff7T
Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/c4PZFNDZ1bgUKvDb6

Not present in either of the two GSV images.

Correct, these signs were recently erected. Maps link was just for reference.

[interstatefan990]

Looks like they really don't want you to turn left here.
https://goo.gl/maps/jQkUY77oKYSBEb148

[kphoger]

Looks like they really don't want you to turn left here.
https://goo.gl/maps/jQkUY77oKYSBEb148

Challenge accepted!   

[SkyPesos]

when one stop sign isn't enough...

[thenetwork]

when one stop sign isn't enough...

There used to be a handful of them in NE Ohio up until the early 80s.  I wonder if it was an allowed option back in the day.

[roadfro]

when one stop sign isn't enough...

There used to be a handful of them in NE Ohio up until the early 80s.  I wonder if it was an allowed option back in the day.

I don't know think "doubling up" a sign on the same post was explicitly allowed, but it probably wasn't specifically disallowed...the 2009 MUTCD implemented that restriction and suggests other methods of emphasis.

[StogieGuy7]

Looks like they really don't want you to turn left here.
https://goo.gl/maps/jQkUY77oKYSBEb148

Challenge accepted!   

I would literally go out of my way to turn left there! 

[jmacswimmer]

Looks like they really don't want you to turn left here.
https://goo.gl/maps/jQkUY77oKYSBEb148

Similar situation here on US 20 when coming out of [shameless brewery plug]the amazing Treehouse Brewing Company in Charlton MA![/shameless brewery plug]

[SkyPesos]

Looks like they really don't want you to turn left here.
https://goo.gl/maps/jQkUY77oKYSBEb148

Similar situation here on US 20 when coming out of [shameless brewery plug]the amazing Treehouse Brewing Company in Charlton MA![/shameless brewery plug]

On the contrary, here's a no left turn sign coming out of a Kroger that a lot of drivers miss. A common loophole I see with people that want to get onto US 22 NB out of there is to go straight and cut through the strip mall/gas station ahead.

[ErmineNotyours]

I wonder if they allow pedestrians here.