I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[mrsman]

That minor issue can be solved by adding the word "TO" between the 95 and 276 shields. Makes it technically correct. 

1.  I-276 right now officially ends at the PA/NJ border.  After the interchange is completed, it will end at the I-95/I-295 junction

2.  I'm assuming there is a "TO" underneath the panel.  My idea was for future signage to include the PA Turnpike symbol instead of using it on the control city line.  That way you can free it up for 2 control cities.  I made a crude representation of what each could look like (NB on left, SB on right)




Next interesting thing is when PennDOT adds NYC as a control city on 95 North north of Center City

I like the second sign.  IMHO it works for both directions.

[cpzilliacus]

I like the second sign.  IMHO it works for both directions.

Plymouth Meeting could also be used for I-276 westbound.

PennDOT uses that extensively for I-476 northbound from I-95.

[jp the roadgeek]

I like the second sign.  IMHO it works for both directions.

Plymouth Meeting could also be used for I-276 westbound.

PennDOT uses that extensively for I-476 northbound from I-95.

Most people in NJ and long distance travelers don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, so Valley Forge (location where 276 ends as it becomes 76, and/or Harrisburg (destination city) are better.  Plymouth Meeting works on the Blue Route because it's the point where 476 intersect the turnpike and becomes a toll road, and also because it's mostly locals using it to get from Delaware or Philly airport to the Main Line and other western suburbs (wouldn't mind seeing Plymouth Meeting and Scranton used as contol cities for I-476 on I-95).

[cpzilliacus]

I like the second sign.  IMHO it works for both directions.

Plymouth Meeting could also be used for I-276 westbound.

PennDOT uses that extensively for I-476 northbound from I-95.

Most people in NJ and long distance travelers don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, so Valley Forge (location where 276 ends as it becomes 76, and/or Harrisburg (destination city) are better.  Plymouth Meeting works on the Blue Route because it's the point where 476 intersect the turnpike and becomes a toll road, and also because it's mostly locals using it to get from Delaware or Philly airport to the Main Line and other western suburbs (wouldn't mind seeing Plymouth Meeting and Scranton used as contol cities for I-476 on I-95).

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

I do not feel strongly about Plymouth Meeting instead of Valley Forge (except that PennDOT already uses it on their part of 476, but I wish that there would be greater consistency in cases like this).

Hopefully the longer-distance drivers have heard of Harrisburg.

Yes, signing Scranton (or Allentown) would be a good idea on the PennDOT-maintained part of I-476. 

[briantroutman]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

Personally, I think Valley Forge and Plymouth Meeting are both about equally useless as control cities. I would prefer that PennDOT adopt the Ohio practice of signing 3DIs using the most logical significant city destination, even if that's beyond the terminus of the 3DI. That would be Harrisburg for I-276 West, Wilmington for I-476 South (south of I-76), and Allentown for I-476 North.

I don't see any reason to sign Scranton on I-476 south of Allentown–and certainly not to the exclusion of Allentown. Allentown is Pennsylvania's third most populous city (vs. Scranton being seventh) anchoring the state's third largest metro area (vs. S/W-B being fifth).

[cpzilliacus]

I don't see any reason to sign Scranton on I-476 south of Allentown–and certainly not to the exclusion of Allentown. Allentown is Pennsylvania's third most populous city (vs. Scranton being seventh) anchoring the state's third largest metro area (vs. S/W-B being fifth).

I am  generally a fan of favoring more-distant destinations as control cities (with one  exception being my own state of Maryland's obsession with signing New York on northbound I-95, when I think Philadelphia and Wilmington should be given some attention there, especially when the Bristol project is complete enough to complete I-95).

[Beltway]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

[PHLBOS]

I would prefer that PennDOT adopt the Ohio practice of signing 3DIs using the most logical significant city destination, even if that's beyond the terminus of the 3DI. That would be Harrisburg for I-276 West, Wilmington for I-476 South (south of I-76), and Allentown for I-476 North.

Signage for I-276 westbound has always listed Harrisburg as its control city. 

Once upon a time & ironically prior to the completion of I-476 (both south of I-76 & the connection to the PA Turnpike), the original plans for I-476 north ramp & through signage was indeed to list Allentown as its control city.  However, due to its northern terminus ending at Chemical Rd. circa 1979-1991; most of the porcelain, button-copy signage (now largely gone) left a blank spot where the Allentown lettering would've gone.  A Google Search actually shows a mid-1970s shot of an unopened I-476 northbound at the I-76 interchange with a 476 NORTH Allentown through sign at the I-76 West (current Exit 16B) ramp.

IMHO, I agree with you that it should be used south of the Turnpike; however, I would settle to have it listed in addition to the Plymouth Meeting (or Mtg.) listings on ramp and/or through signage.  In more densely-populated areas; I see absolutely nothing wrong with listing a local destination along with a distant one on the same sign for the same route in the same direction.

[theroadwayone]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

I haven't looked at any, but for all I know, any references to that period would include the Declaration of Independence, one or two battles, and then the Brits letting us go in 1783.

[Alps]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

... History classes still teach history. Valley Forge is still very much in there.

[Beltway]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

... History classes still teach history. Valley Forge is still very much in there.

Actually (maybe it wasn't clear), I was referring to Plymouth Meeting, not Valley Forge.

[Alps]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

... History classes still teach history. Valley Forge is still very much in there.

Actually (maybe it wasn't clear), I was referring to Plymouth Meeting, not Valley Forge.

Oh yeh, not clear. No idea what Plymouth Meeting is about.

[theroadwayone]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

... History classes still teach history. Valley Forge is still very much in there.

Actually (maybe it wasn't clear), I was referring to Plymouth Meeting, not Valley Forge.

Oh yeh, not clear. No idea what Plymouth Meeting is about.

It was the sight of a Quaker meetinghouse in the early 18th Century.

[jeffandnicole]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

... History classes still teach history. Valley Forge is still very much in there.

Actually (maybe it wasn't clear), I was referring to Plymouth Meeting, not Valley Forge.

Oh yeh, not clear. No idea what Plymouth Meeting is about.

It was the sight of a Quaker meetinghouse in the early 18th Century.

So, it's a sentence in a history book?

Nearly every town in the original 13 colonies can trace some sort of history back a few centuries.

[AMLNet49]

If they don't know where Plymouth Meeting is, do you expect them to know where Valley Forge is?  :-)

Well, if they paid attention in their fifth grade history classes, they might have a fighting chance.

This is not the 1960s or 1970s.  Most history classes in the last 25 years or so probably wouldn't mention it.

... History classes still teach history. Valley Forge is still very much in there.

Valley Forge is famous as the place where our army almost froze before coming back to win. Plymouth Meeting? Not even close to as well known

[PHLBOS]

Plymouth (in Massachusetts) & Plymouth Rock taught in history classes?  Yes.
Plymouth Meeting (actually Plymouth Township, Montgomery County, PA)?  Not to my knowledge.

[Beltway]

Plymouth (in Massachusetts) & Plymouth Rock taught in history classes?  Yes.
Plymouth Meeting (actually Plymouth Township, Montgomery County, PA)?  Not to my knowledge.

Plymouth Meeting is well known locally in the Philadelphia area, I was aware of the significance when I lived in Villanova and Devon in the 1970s.  Nationally?  I doubt it.

[jeffandnicole]

(apologies in advance for a long-winded comparison)

In NJ, for the 295/42 construction project, there was an old building that sat atop the interchange known somewhat as the Hugg-Harrison House.  While trees and brush obscured it from view on the highway, it was easily seen from Browning Road which passes thru the interchange, and from a very large cemetery.  The cemetery even had their offices in there, and used it for storage. 

NJDOT did an assessment and concluded there wasn't nothing unique or overly historical about the building.  This was probably back in the 1990's.

Only when the trees were knocked down did some people see it.  After they learned it was targeted for removal, a few people did some research and concluded it housed someone during the Hessian War period.  Time wore on, and not much was done except for NJDOT taking over the house and preparing it for demolition.  The few activists trying to save it put together a gofundme-type account (but not on gofundme) that raised a little money.  The people involved, which now included the Camden County Historical Society, must have known something was up, and sent a letter up via snail mail or interoffice mail to NJDOT.  Before the letter was opened, at 6am on a Friday morning, NJDOT had sent their contractor in to demolish it.

A little over a thousand people 'liked' a Facebook page for this house, most of them mad the house was demo'ed.  They talked about how NJDOT could care less about history. They talked about how this home could've been moved.  They talked about how its history should be taught in the local schools.  Interestingly though, the amount of money raised never went up (it got to a little over $1,000, and that was it).

My main thought - the house has been around since 1764.  If it wasn't important enough until 2012...even the county's historical society didn't even have much info on it...then don't go around crying at the 11th hour telling us the importance of such a building, when all they could really come up with was that it was a seasonal home for someone in the battle.

There is a lot more to the battle itself that's already been preserved.  You won't find anything about that on this group's Facebook page though.  And regardless if this house is there or not, its history could still be taught in the local schools if they so chose to do so.  This group simply found something that they thought could stop a project that was already decades in the making and years under construction, and failed miserably.

So, anyway, back to the point of Plymouth Meeting - it may have had a little significance...maybe there was a few homes that were occupied in a battle, but it was probably far from anything significant or unique that happened during a battle. 

[roadman]

(apologies in advance for a long-winded comparison)

In NJ, for the 295/42 construction project, there was an old building that sat atop the interchange known somewhat as the Hugg-Harrison House.  While trees and brush obscured it from view on the highway, it was easily seen from Browning Road which passes thru the interchange, and from a very large cemetery.  The cemetery even had their offices in there, and used it for storage. 

NJDOT did an assessment and concluded there wasn't nothing unique or overly historical about the building.  This was probably back in the 1990's.

Only when the trees were knocked down did some people see it.  After they learned it was targeted for removal, a few people did some research and concluded it housed someone during the Hessian War period.  Time wore on, and not much was done except for NJDOT taking over the house and preparing it for demolition.  The few activists trying to save it put together a gofundme-type account (but not on gofundme) that raised a little money.  The people involved, which now included the Camden County Historical Society, must have known something was up, and sent a letter up via snail mail or interoffice mail to NJDOT.  Before the letter was opened, at 6am on a Friday morning, NJDOT had sent their contractor in to demolish it.

A little over a thousand people 'liked' a Facebook page for this house, most of them mad the house was demo'ed.  They talked about how NJDOT could care less about history. They talked about how this home could've been moved.  They talked about how its history should be taught in the local schools.  Interestingly though, the amount of money raised never went up (it got to a little over $1,000, and that was it).

My main thought - the house has been around since 1764.  If it wasn't important enough until 2012...even the county's historical society didn't even have much info on it...then don't go around crying at the 11th hour telling us the importance of such a building, when all they could really come up with was that it was a seasonal home for someone in the battle.

There is a lot more to the battle itself that's already been preserved.  You won't find anything about that on this group's Facebook page though.  And regardless if this house is there or not, its history could still be taught in the local schools if they so chose to do so.  This group simply found something that they thought could stop a project that was already decades in the making and years under construction, and failed miserably.

So, anyway, back to the point of Plymouth Meeting - it may have had a little significance...maybe there was a few homes that were occupied in a battle, but it was probably far from anything significant or unique that happened during a battle. 

As my best friend, a history major, says "Some old things are just that - old things." 

[Roadgeek2500]

Being someone who regularly travels the Blue Route, I never liked the Plymouth Mtg designation to begin with. That designation was nebulous and frankly meaningless to drivers entering 476 from 95. I felt that they should have gone with the Conshohocken designation, even if that town is a couple miles south of 476's then-terminus. Hell, even Norristown would have been more recognizable to motorists.

[Alps]

Traffic in the interchange has shifted - I-95 SB now rides all the way to the outside on the future C-D lanes for 413, then slides back into the mainline at the 413 interchange. There is fuck-all for lane striping, at least as far as reflectivity goes. Saw a car nearly stop in the left lane, then ride the line, then suddenly he went from left to right and I was riding in the shoulder without knowing it.

[jcn]

Traffic in the interchange has shifted - I-95 SB now rides all the way to the outside on the future C-D lanes for 413, then slides back into the mainline at the 413 interchange. There is fuck-all for lane striping, at least as far as reflectivity goes. Saw a car nearly stop in the left lane, then ride the line, then suddenly he went from left to right and I was riding in the shoulder without knowing it.

Good to know, what's the progress with the 95 ramps now when you passed by?

[Chris19001]

So, anyway, back to the point of Plymouth Meeting - it may have had a little significance...maybe there was a few homes that were occupied in a battle, but it was probably far from anything significant or unique that happened during a battle.

I agree whole heartedly, and I've lived in Mont Co my whole life. 
Plymouth Meeting House is only marginally more important than the many other Quaker Meeting Houses in the region, and it may be due to its location at the very old intersection of Germantown and Butler Pikes.  The building complex itself is pretty cool though, as Butler Pike has to dogleg to get around it rather than through it as it once may have many years ago..  I do not believe there would be any strong link between the Quakers and the Revolutionary War as their members were/are pacifists.  Thus, what historical significance exists is more of a religious/cultural matter than a military one as several here seem to have suggested.  With that said, the Plymouth Meeting area is certainly an important crossroads with the Turnpike, NE Extension, and Blue Route intersection with Germantown Pike.  However, I would be quite surprised if people from outside the immediate region would have a clue where it was if they saw it on a BGS or "miles to" sign.  I'd vote for Harrisburg.

Edit: apologies for continuing to go so far off topic. 

[PHLBOS]

With that said, the Plymouth Meeting area is certainly an important crossroads with the Turnpike, NE Extension, and Blue Route intersection with Germantown Pike.  However, I would be quite surprised if people from outside the immediate region would have a clue where it was if they saw it on a BGS or "miles to" sign.  I'd vote for Harrisburg.

I believe you meant Allentown because & to the best of my knowledge, the only route that is signed for Plymouth Meeting is I-476 northbound along most of the free, Blue Route portion of it (south of Exit 18).

[storm2k]

With that said, the Plymouth Meeting area is certainly an important crossroads with the Turnpike, NE Extension, and Blue Route intersection with Germantown Pike.  However, I would be quite surprised if people from outside the immediate region would have a clue where it was if they saw it on a BGS or "miles to" sign.  I'd vote for Harrisburg.

I believe you meant Allentown because & to the best of my knowledge, the only route that is signed for Plymouth Meeting is I-476 northbound along most of the free, Blue Route portion of it (south of Exit 18).

Only PennDOT uses Plymouth Mtg. The PATP uses Allentown and Philadelphia/Chester for the Northeast Extension. PennDOT loves clinging to that. Then again, I've often found they are sometimes too specific about destinations they use on some of their signage.