I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[bzakharin]

The NJ governor would be there because (1) a road opening is always good publicity and (2) part of the missing length of I-95 is in NJ.

You know how they say any news is good news?

This is NJ.  Anytime the governor appears, 90% of the people will complain about it.  In this case, it'll have a lot to do with the fact that he's not in NJ.  The Somerset Freeway was cancelled 30 years ago.  Unlike some from out of state that see this missing link in NJ as a huge inconvenience and major black eye on NJ, most New Jerseyians put it out of mind, out of sight a long time ago.  We have several other highways that are a higher priority in some people's eyes.

I do feel like it's a much bigger deal for PA in that Philly (and other Eastern PA points south of the PA Turnpike) gets a freeway link to NYC. For NJ it's just a local improvement for those who live around Exit 6 and commute to Philly.

[cpzilliacus]

I do feel like it's a much bigger deal for PA in that Philly (and other Eastern PA points south of the PA Turnpike) gets a freeway link to NYC. For NJ it's just a local improvement for those who live around Exit 6 and commute to Philly.

I disagree.

There are many distribution centers along the N.J. Turnpike between Exits 6 and 10. Most of them presumably serve customers in North Jersey and New York City, and perhaps South Jersey along the Turnpike and even the Garden State Parkway (since trucks are allowed south  of I-195).

Now with the completion of I-95 in Brisol, some of those businesses may take advantage of opportunities along I-95 south of the new interchange.

[webny99]

I do feel like it's a much bigger deal for PA in that Philly (and other Eastern PA points south of the PA Turnpike) gets a freeway link to NYC. For NJ it's just a local improvement for those who live around Exit 6 and commute to Philly.

I disagree.

There are many distribution centers along the N.J. Turnpike between Exits 6 and 10. Most of them presumably serve customers in North Jersey and New York City, and perhaps South Jersey along the Turnpike and even the Garden State Parkway (since trucks are allowed south  of I-195).

Now with the completion of I-95 in Brisol, some of those businesses may take advantage of opportunities along I-95 south of the new interchange.

While what you say is true, that doesn't really negate his points. It's still a much bigger deal for PA.

[roadman65]

We should really see if people will actually use this over the straight through, but more direct tolled turnpike after opening.  Remember, some will not want to deal with the Philly traffic, then others will listen to that damned GPS and do whatever it tells them to do as many if that darn device sent them to Harrisburg and then south to get to Baltimore from NYC would have no clue that they went indirectly between those two points.

As far as commerce goes, some may open up trade, but it will be interesting to see it happen when it happens.

[webny99]

We should really see if people will actually use this over the straight through, but more direct tolled turnpike after opening.  Remember, some will not want to deal with the Philly traffic, then others will listen to that damned GPS and do whatever it tells them to do

I wouldn't expect it to be used for Baltimore - NYC traffic. It's not meant to be an alternate to the NJ turnpike so much as just complete I-95 and provide for Philly/local traffic.

[briantroutman]

Remember, some will not want to deal with the Philly traffic, then others will listen to that damned GPS and do whatever it tells them to do...

The "damned GPS"  will probably tell them to stay on the NJ Turnpike since it's a slightly shorter through route with generally lower travel time. GPSes don't care about route numbers–people do.

If anything, it will be people blindly following I-95 shields who will take the new route through Philadelphia. These are the same people who follow I-95 through Wilmington even though it's marked LOCAL TRAFFIC.

[J N Winkler]

I think it is kind of amusing that of the several elements in my prediction (first car through, classic car, Pennsylvania governor, NJ governor), only the presence of the NJ governor is being queried.

In any case, it is falsifiable--we will just have to see what happens when the current phase is finished.  One thing that might overturn it is the death of a worker in a construction-related accident.  In opening brochures I have seen, the names of workers thus killed have been printed at the front top, enclosed in a thick black border, ahead of the names of engineers, contractors, and politicians involved in the project.

[Alps]

Remember, some will not want to deal with the Philly traffic, then others will listen to that damned GPS and do whatever it tells them to do...

The "damned GPS"  will probably tell them to stay on the NJ Turnpike since it's a slightly shorter through route with generally lower travel time. GPSes don't care about route numbers–people do.

If anything, it will be people blindly following I-95 shields who will take the new route through Philadelphia. These are the same people who follow I-95 through Wilmington even though it's marked LOCAL TRAFFIC.

I like following I-95 through Wilmington during off hours. It's about the same time and nicer scenery than 495.

[Perfxion]

So to sum up this project:
1: I-95 will exit itself twice to complete I-95 on maps.
2: 2 3dis and a state highway will be the major through route on their respected exits.
3: I-295 becomes a confusing candy cane.
4: PA will finish an almost 40 year project to solve an issue from NJ
5: I am betting the DMB and this interchange will be the same price.

Wouldn't a faster, cheaper, simpler option be
1: Renumber all the NJTP as I-95
2: De-toll NJTP and roll it over to NJDoT
3: Renumber I-95 from Newport,DE to Lawrence,NJ as I-895?

[jeffandnicole]

...
5: I am betting the DMB and this interchange will be the same price.

The DMB is $4; the I-95 routing is $5 (EZ Pass) or $6.75 (Toll-by-Plate) plus whatever toll you paid on the NJ Turnpike to get there.

Wouldn't a faster, cheaper, simpler option be
1: Renumber all the NJTP as I-95
2: De-toll NJTP and roll it over to NJDoT
3: Renumber I-95 from Newport,DE to Lawrence,NJ as I-895?

Well, there's a lot of faster and cheaper and simpler solutions for any project. The cheapest and simplest, normally, is to do nothing.  The fastest could've been done 35 years ago.  Not sure what de-tolling the NJ Turnpike has to do with it being or not being I-95. 

It's NJDOT, not NJDoT.

I-XX numbers are designed to go thru cities, not around cities.  Both Wilmington and Philadelphia would not appreciate being downgraded to 3 di statuses. 

[briantroutman]

^ These are all issues that have been discussed countless times in this thread and elsewhere.

Much of NY-DC traffic already uses the NJ Turnpike straight through to Delaware. So to a degree, renumbering it as I-95 wouldn't really change much.

As to the issue of why not route it via a straight NJ route, this is a debate you could have with any number of roads in any number of places. If I-95 is the route from NYC to Boston, why does it go the long way through Providence rather than the shorter route of I-95, I-91, I-84, and I-90? Because I-95 wasn't planned solely to be the NYC/BOS quick route, it was planned as the route connecting major cities of the East Coast–of which Providence is one. Likewise, I-95 in the Mid Atlantic isn't strictly the NYC/DC quick route, it's the NYC to Trenton to Philadelphia to Wilmington to Baltimore to Washington route.

I don't see how de-tolling the NJ Turnpike is even relevant considering the number of toll facilities that are integrated into Interstate system (PA Turnpike, NY Thruway, Masspike, etc.). In any event, I suspect any proposal to dissolve the NJTA would be a complete non-starter.

[J N Winkler]

I like following I-95 through Wilmington during off hours. It's about the same time and nicer scenery than 495.

When I was passing through Wilmington relatively frequently 20 years ago as part of summer weekend daytrips out of suburban Maryland, I never felt it made much sense to detour onto I-495.  Northbound it involved exiting twice versus once, and southbound it involved exiting once versus not at all.  Traffic felt about as bad on I-495 as on I-95 and I think that might have had something to do with I-495 being a port access road, though at the time I did not have a formalized understanding of the effect eighteen-wheelers have on LOS.

[Chris19001]

When I was passing through Wilmington relatively frequently 20 years ago as part of summer weekend daytrips out of suburban Maryland, I never felt it made much sense to detour onto I-495.  Northbound it involved exiting twice versus once, and southbound it involved exiting once versus not at all.  Traffic felt about as bad on I-495 as on I-95 and I think that might have had something to do with I-495 being a port access road, though at the time I did not have a formalized understanding of the effect eighteen-wheelers have on LOS.

I remember much the same from 20 years ago.  Traffic caught up.  In my recent experiences, going from the Philly area to south of Wilmington on I-95 during peak travel times is generally far heavier than I-495.

[PHLBOS]

When I was passing through Wilmington relatively frequently 20 years ago as part of summer weekend daytrips out of suburban Maryland, I never felt it made much sense to detour onto I-495.  Northbound it involved exiting twice versus once, and southbound it involved exiting once versus not at all.  Traffic felt about as bad on I-495 as on I-95 and I think that might have had something to do with I-495 being a port access road, though at the time I did not have a formalized understanding of the effect eighteen-wheelers have on LOS.

I remember much the same from 20 years ago.  Traffic caught up.  In my recent experiences, going from the Philly area to south of Wilmington on I-95 during peak travel times is generally far heavier than I-495.

Not to mention the fact that I-495 is 6-lanes for most of the way w/a posted speed limit of 65 vs. I-95 being only 4-lanes through Wilmington and a (FWIW) posted speed limit of 55.

[webny99]

When I was passing through Wilmington relatively frequently 20 years ago as part of summer weekend daytrips out of suburban Maryland, I never felt it made much sense to detour onto I-495.  Northbound it involved exiting twice versus once, and southbound it involved exiting once versus not at all.  Traffic felt about as bad on I-495 as on I-95 and I think that might have had something to do with I-495 being a port access road, though at the time I did not have a formalized understanding of the effect eighteen-wheelers have on LOS.

I remember much the same from 20 years ago.  Traffic caught up.  In my recent experiences, going from the Philly area to south of Wilmington on I-95 during peak travel times is generally far heavier than I-495.

Not to mention the fact that I-495 is 6-lanes for most of the way w/a posted speed limit of 65 vs. I-95 being only 4-lanes through Wilmington and a (FWIW) posted speed limit of 55.

The six lanes, lower traffic volume, and higher speed limit (as well as signage, for what that's worth) were all factors that swayed us towards using I-495 on our last two Philly>Maryland trips. I-95 has a much more cramped, urban feel through Wilmington, making it a more interesting, but rarely faster, drive.

[Perfxion]

1: I am for not adding toll roads to the interstate system. If Fed dollars were used, get rid of the tolls. I would say the same about PA/MA/OK turnpikes, NY Thruway, etc.
2: One of (the many) reasons for the canceled Somerset was a prevention of shunpiking.
3: Without the Somerset or the original plan to the western spur, it is useless for most to go 295 or 95 north to NYC. Send traffic the simplest way from big city to big city.
4: Even when this is complete, keep the signs point NJTP to NYC. 95 to Philly.

[jeffandnicole]

3: Without the Somerset or the original plan to the western spur, it is useless for most to go 295 or 95 north to NYC. Send traffic the simplest way from big city to big city.

Both routes parallel the NJ Turnpike, with easy, interstate connections.  It's far from useless.  And if there's an issue/congestion on any route, there's 2 other possibilities to get around it.

[Beltway]

2: One of (the many) reasons for the canceled Somerset was a prevention of shunpiking.

Then why did they allow I-295 and I-195 to be built and provide a toll-free alternative to the southern half of the Turnpike?

[bzakharin]

^ These are all issues that have been discussed countless times in this thread and elsewhere.

Much of NY-DC traffic already uses the NJ Turnpike straight through to Delaware. So to a degree, renumbering it as I-95 wouldn’t really change much.

As to the issue of why not route it via a straight NJ route, this is a debate you could have with any number of roads in any number of places. If I-95 is the route from NYC to Boston, why does it go the long way through Providence rather than the shorter route of I-95, I-91, I-84, and I-90? Because I-95 wasn’t planned solely to be the NYC/BOS quick route, it was planned as the route connecting major cities of the East Coast—of which Providence is one. Likewise, I-95 in the Mid Atlantic isn’t strictly the NYC/DC quick route, it’s the NYC to Trenton to Philadelphia to Wilmington to Baltimore to Washington route.

I don’t see how de-tolling the NJ Turnpike is even relevant considering the number of toll facilities that are integrated into Interstate system (PA Turnpike, NY Thruway, Masspike, etc.). In any event, I suspect any proposal to dissolve the NJTA would be a complete non-starter.

Except Trenton is out of luck when it comes to going to NYC
I-95 bypasses Washington, DC entirely
I-95 never enters Boston either, though it does come a lot closer than it does to DC or Trenton.

So there is precedent to not run I-95 through Philadelphia. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, just that it could be.

[Beltway]

Except Trenton is out of luck when it comes to going to NYC
I-95 bypasses Washington, DC entirely
I-95 never enters Boston either, though it does come a lot closer than it does to DC or Trenton.
So there is precedent to not run I-95 through Philadelphia. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, just that it could be.

Washington, DC and Boston had approved routes thru the center of the city for I-95.  Only after they were canceled due to local opposition was I-95 routed onto the beltways.

Pennsylvania and Philadelphia have gotten their share of criticism from me in the past, but I will give them credit for building I-95 on the originally planned routing thru the center of the city.

[briantroutman]

Except Trenton is out of luck when it comes to going to NYC
I-95 bypasses Washington, DC entirely
I-95 never enters Boston either, though it does come a lot closer than it does to DC or Trenton.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think those other examples are truly equivalent to the NJ Turnpike and its relationship to Philadelphia.

Regardless of the technicalities of municipal borders (I-95 actually does enter DC on the Woodrow Wilson Bridge), I-95 as currently routed–even though it's on beltways in Washington and Boston–still provides much better and more direct service to those two cities than the NJ Turnpike does to Philadelphia. The one possible direct freeway-freeway connection (NJTP to NJ 42/I-76) doesn't exist. All other routings from the NJ Turnpike to Philadelphia require either exiting onto traffic-clogged commercial strips or traveling literally dozens of miles on parallel freeways.

Contrast that with the multiple radial freeway connections that put the I-95 beltways in Washington and Boston that within a half-dozen miles on all-freeway routes.

Trenton will still have good connections to I-95 via old I-95, US 1, and I-195 even after the re-routing.

[02 Park Ave]

Philadelphia probably only "allowed" I-95 to be built due to its deserved inferiority complex.  They wanted to have a reason for out of towners to come through their city. They stopped other freeways from being built, viz. The Crosstown Expressway, extrending the 309 Expressway to the Betsy Ross Bridge, and completing the Woodhaven Road Expressway, that would have helped local motorists.  They delayed the Vine Street Expressway for decades.  And then there is their I-676 "Breezewood".  They couldn't even build the simple ramp connecting the Penrose Avenue Bridge to 26th Stret.

There is not much credit deserved by that city.

[silverback1065]

Philadelphia probably only "allowed" I-95 to be built due to its deserved inferiority complex.  They wanted to have a reason for out of towners to come through their city. They stopped other freeways from being built, viz. The Crosstown Expressway, extrending the 309 Expressway to the Betsy Ross Bridge, and completing the Woodhaven Road Expressway, that would have helped local motorists.  They delayed the Vine Street Expressway for decades.  And then there is their I-676 "Breezewood".  They couldn't even build the simple ramp connecting the Penrose Avenue Bridge to 26th Stret.

There is not much credit deserved by that city.

why didn't they build 676 one block north to avoid the damn breezewood all together?

[jeffandnicole]

The one possible direct freeway-freeway connection (NJTP to NJ 42/I-76) doesn't exist. All other routings from the NJ Turnpike to Philadelphia require either exiting onto traffic-clogged commercial strips or traveling literally dozens of miles on parallel freeways.

The ironic thing about this is that it results in a cheaper ride from the south or north. It's probably the main reason why the interchange hasn't been demanded yet.

[Beltway]

Philadelphia probably only "allowed" I-95 to be built due to its deserved inferiority complex.  They wanted to have a reason for out of towners to come through their city. They stopped other freeways from being built, viz. The Crosstown Expressway, extrending the 309 Expressway to the Betsy Ross Bridge, and completing the Woodhaven Road Expressway, that would have helped local motorists.  They delayed the Vine Street Expressway for decades.  And then there is their I-676 "Breezewood".  They couldn't even build the simple ramp connecting the Penrose Avenue Bridge to 26th Street.
There is not much credit deserved by that city.

The Delaware Expressway concept originated in the 1930s, was included in the approved Interstate system in 1945, and the turnpike commission even considered building it as a tollroad in the 1950s.  It was always considered to be a very important highway, far more important than the others you listed.  Philadelphia supported it for the same reason that nearly every other major city supported and built urban Interstate highways.