Should Las Vegas switch to Mountain Time and drop DST?

[kkt]

Daylight savings helps schoolchildren and folks with typical 8-hour work schedules. It doesn't matter at all to those with atypical night/third-shift days or rather long working hours (ten or more). Given that the folks that lose the most by keeping the time shift are those who are stubbornly unprepared and thus, probably ill-equipped to programming their VCRs, I'd rather lean towards DST to help the added daylight at times for whom it's needed most.

Again, I deal with 1-2 hours of time zone variation a minimum of two times a month (sometimes up to 8 times a month), and it makes no difference to my well-being and health, and the ten seconds it takes to adjust my laptop is the only productivity loss. The rest is bullshit - we've dealt with much harder changes - helping a couple of kids out isn't too much of a responsibility for an adult to handle.

How exactly does an arbitrary time shift help kids or people with typical work schedules? I mean the whole "kids won't be standing in the dark" idea doesn't really seem like a reason to change time for everyone. Why not just start school later in the morning? Let the kids sleep

Well, think about this.  Kids don't get up by themselves and get their breakfast and to school.  A parent has to be home to do that.  Kinda hard to explain to lots of workplaces that you want to come to work an hour late for the next four months. 

And many people with 8-5 jobs, and significant numbers of middle and high school kids, take city buses to work or school.  The city buses run most of their service during commute hours.  Taking them later means greatly reduced or eliminated service. 

And most people really would prefer to get up and out of the house when it's dawn or daylight, not still pitch dark; and when it's summer they'd rather have daylight in the evening instead of 4-5 AM.  Changing the time you get up to match when it gets light is perfectly natural.  Only about 50 years went by between widespread adoption of clocks in the 1860s and the adoption of DST to make clocks more closely match what people want to do naturally.

[vdeane]

Unless Congress comes to their senses and makes DST April-October again.  But then, Congress.

I don't know why the April->March shift occurred, but the October->November one was specifically so that kids wouldn't be trick or treating in the dark, so I don't see any possibility of it changing.

How exactly does an arbitrary time shift help kids or people with typical work schedules?

So that the morning commute is in the light all year while still giving an extra useful (well, to everyone who isn't a super early bird) hour of daylight in the summer.

[silverback1065]

I really think these reasons solely depend on where you are geographically and how long the sun is out in your area.

[english si]

Again, I deal with 1-2 hours of time zone variation a minimum of two times a month (sometimes up to 8 times a month), and it makes no difference to my well-being and health, and the ten seconds it takes to adjust my laptop is the only productivity loss.

The issue isn't the changing of what numbers are on the clock per se, but
- the time you change onto, compared with solar time (if you are changing time zones flying then the time changes keep solar time and clock time pretty much in sync), creating health issues with late dawns, esp in October, November, February and March.
- the lack of evidence for meaningfully positive energy/economic benefits to justify the change.

And most people really would prefer to get up and out of the house when it's dawn or daylight, not still pitch dark; and when it's summer they'd rather have daylight in the evening instead of 4-5 AM.

But why does 'summer' run from late March to late October in Europe, and for two weeks more in spring and a week more in fall in the US? Ignoring analemma, late March and late September have sunrises at around 6am local time - there's only just about the time to steal then, let alone closer to winter.

So that the morning commute is in the light all year while still giving an extra useful (well, to everyone who isn't a super early bird) hour of daylight in the summer.

Does the morning commute stay light though? While we can move the hour of light from morning to evening in the summer, is it there to take in spring or fall without making the morning commute dark?

I love DST, but I feel it needs to be cut back to only running for ~26, if not fewer, weeks. I really hate the 'year round DST' proposals (or ones to that effect, like the one in the thread title).

[kkt]

I don't know why the April->March shift occurred, but the October->November one was specifically so that kids wouldn't be trick or treating in the dark, so I don't see any possibility of it changing.

Yes, that was the reason given and I agree that it's unlikely to change, but anyone who thinks trick or treating should be a daytime activity is unclear on the concept of Halloween.

[formulanone]

Again, I deal with 1-2 hours of time zone variation a minimum of two times a month (sometimes up to 8 times a month), and it makes no difference to my well-being and health, and the ten seconds it takes to adjust my laptop is the only productivity loss.

The issue isn't the changing of what numbers are on the clock per se, but
- the time you change onto, compared with solar time (if you are changing time zones flying then the time changes keep solar time and social time pretty much in sync), creating health issues with late dawns, esp in October, November, February and March.
- the lack of evidence for meaningfully positive energy/economic benefits to justify the change.

I mentioned the variation in time zone changes to destroy the worn-out excuses of health reasons against DST. Socially, you kind of have to go with the flow of wherever you may be, which helps. Economically, I've kind of thought it's a bit of a zero-sum game; one time of year washes out the other, but the psychological benefits help out. Still, there's times of year where I don't need a 10:00pm sunset and/or a 4:45am sunrise, so it really depends on your latitude.

If it means going to bed one hour early one night a year, that's called responsibility. If it means fighting it by watching the regularly-scheduled Sunday night programming of The Nose Picking Hour while having that unnecessary fourth beer, and then wasting an hour of one's work day railing about each March/April it on Twitter because one felt they weren't getting enough sleep, then what difference does my opinion make?

[1995hoo]

I think Las Vegas should stay on Pacific Time. That being said, if Las Vegas chose to adopt similar time rules to Arizona, both areas would still be on the same time as California and the rest of the Pacific Time Zone for 8 months out of the year (March to November).

Unless Congress comes to their senses and makes DST April-October again.  But then, Congress.

I think it'd make more sense to make it the same as Europe (last Sunday in March to last Sunday in October), although I recognize the political and commercial interests in the current November date so I don't see that changing. The second Sunday in March is absurdly early and I never minded the first Sunday in April, but it seems to me the last Sunday in March would be a reasonable compromise date that would eliminate the nuisance in the business world of having to deal with the time difference being an hour less for part of March (e.g., from the second Sunday in March to the last Sunday in March, London is four hours ahead of Eastern Time rather than five). While at first blush it sounds fine to have a lesser time difference, the practical problem is that most people forget the difference is less during that period and you wind up with a lot of missed phone calls and botched conference calls and the like.

[Brandon]

Well, think about this.  Kids don't get up by themselves and get their breakfast and to school.  A parent has to be home to do that.  Kinda hard to explain to lots of workplaces that you want to come to work an hour late for the next four months. 

Wanna bet?  I take you've never been in or had a parent in a dysfunctional home where they have to do exactly that.

[english si]

I mentioned the variation in time zone changes to destroy the worn-out excuses of health reasons against DST.

The health reasons are linked with darker mornings, not the time shift in and of itself (other than 3 days of increased heart attacks after springing forward, and 1 day of reduced heart attacks after falling back - note that the disproportionately late return to normal time doesn't as give much relief).

You may have mentioned the time changes to defeat a straw man, I was pointing out that you are trying to destroy an argument that isn't real (and you don't even do that - see below).

Socially, you kind of have to go with the flow of wherever you may be, which helps.

I meant clock time, and changed it, but still, my point stands that solar time and other times aren't changing relative to each other when you move geographically, even though you are changing your clock. They are changing when you change times without moving geographically - it is that disparity between clocks that is the issue.

Changing to/from DST is different to changing a time zone geographically, as it moves the social and clock times relative to solar time. The 1 hour difference between London and Berlin isn't an issue, as sunrises are in roughly the same place clock time. The 1 hour difference between the Saturday before and the third Sunday in March (in London) is an identical change of your watch, but sunrise is now an hour later on clock time, a much harder lag to deal with than a 23h day.

So you try and take out a non-argument with an apples-to-orange comparison. Not only were you fighting a scarecrow, but you missed!

If it means going to bed one hour early one night a year, that's called responsibility.

Oh, wow, not only assuming that as I don't like DST, I can't get up on the last Sunday of March, but that I don't plan ahead and go to bed early? Double ad hominem all the way!

This year I'm not going to bed an hour early as, time and time again I can't get it to do anything other than give me less sleep. My body clock isn't ready for sleep if I'm going to bed early, and rather than tiring myself out, I'm just laying there trying to sleep, not using energy.

It's no harder to wake up the day the clocks spring forward at 7am than 4 weeks earlier when the sunrise is the same time on the clock, but it's a hell of lot harder than 1 week earlier, when the sunrise is an extra (over spring forward day) 44m earlier (7am is 16m after sunrise on the 1st of March, 31m on the 8th, 47m on the 15th, 1h3m on the 22nd and 19m on the 29th*).


Actually engaging with what someone is saying, rather than creating straw men and then insulting them instead of actual argument, that's called responsibility.


*Sundays in October, in London, are as follows - 4th 7:06, 11th 7:18, 18th 07:30, 25th 06:42. It's clear there isn't a useless hour of daylight to move from the morning at this time of year! Last Sunday in March to last Sunday in September, anyone?

[formulanone]

Actually, I was agreeing with your stance, but if using your words to buttress my opinion isn't your style, then my apologies.

...I think.

[hotdogPi]

Daylight Savings Time all the time means there is effectively no more daylight savings time. It would just mean that solar noon is 1:00 PM. UTC-5 would become UTC-4 (east coast of US), while UTC-8 would become UTC-7 (west coast of US).

[Road Hog]

The trend has always been to lean toward later sunsets. Look at the time zones around the world. They tend to stretch well west of the center meridian. The Central Time Zone in North America is based on the 90° meridian (roughly Memphis and New Orleans), but Nashville is barely in the zone and Saskatchewan is in it too.

I don't think DST is quaint. People dislike changing clocks and bitch about it, but in most of the country they like having more light in the evening in the summer.

[oscar]

The trend has always been to lean toward later sunsets. Look at the time zones around the world. They tend to stretch well west of the center meridian. The Central Time Zone in North America is based on the 90° meridian (roughly Memphis and New Orleans), but Nashville is barely in the zone and Saskatchewan is in it too.

But Saskatchewan doesn't do DST, except for its parts of the Lloydminster (always follows Alberta time) and Flin Flon (always follows Manitoba) areas, so it's effectively on Mountain time half the year.

[hotdogPi]

Click to make larger.

This map shows solar noon.

Dark green (almost nonexistent): 10:00
Primary green (moderately rare): 11:00
Light green: 11:30
White: 12:00
Light red: 12:30
Primary red: 1:00
Dark red: 2:00

Add 1 hour to the time if daylight savings time is active. This would make red places more red, and almost all green places turn from green to red.

[Pink Jazz]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but on a somewhat related note, I wonder if the time zone difference between Las Vegas and Arizona has anything to do with why the Kingman/Bullhead area are in the Phoenix Nielsen Designated Market Area (DMA) instead of the Las Vegas DMA.  After all, Kingman/Bullhead are both geographically and economically closer to Las Vegas than they are to Phoenix.  The U.S. Office of Management and Budget even groups the Kingman/Bullhead/Lake Havasu City Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) with the Las Vegas MSA via a Combined Statistical Area (CSA).

[kphoger]

The trend has always been to lean toward later sunsets. Look at the time zones around the world. They tend to stretch well west of the center meridian. The Central Time Zone in North America is based on the 90° meridian (roughly Memphis and New Orleans), but Nashville is barely in the zone and Saskatchewan is in it too.

I don't think DST is quaint. People dislike changing clocks and bitch about it, but in most of the country they like having more light in the evening in the summer.

There's more light in the evenings in the summer with or without DST.

[kkt]

There's more light in the evenings in the summer with or without DST.

There's more light in the evenings with DST than there would be if we kept standard time in the summer.
Standard time in the summer would give us more light from 4 to 5 AM, which most people don't find as useful as 9 to 10 PM.

[kphoger]

I don't find extra daylight after 9:00 particularly useful. Very little am I doing outside that requires natural daylight. I do, however, find it difficult to put a child to bed at 8:00 when it's still fully light outside, especially if that child is a baby or toddler that needs a room to be as dark as possible for a bedtime cue.

On the other end, though, as someone who has a hard time getting up while it's still dark outside, DST really does me in in the spring: just as it's finally starting to be light outside when my alarm goes off, DST pulls the rug out from under me. I actually only get up with or after the sun for a few months out of the year, and most people I know get up when I do or before I do.

[dfwmapper]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but on a somewhat related note, I wonder if the time zone difference between Las Vegas and Arizona has anything to do with why the Kingman/Bullhead area are in the Phoenix Nielsen Designated Market Area (DMA) instead of the Las Vegas DMA.  After all, Kingman/Bullhead are both geographically and economically closer to Las Vegas than they are to Phoenix.  The U.S. Office of Management and Budget even groups the Kingman/Bullhead/Lake Havasu City Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) with the Las Vegas MSA via a Combined Statistical Area (CSA).

Nielsen DMAs are based on the most-watched stations in a market. In the analog TV days, the Phoenix stations all built out extensive translator networks to provide coverage of their stations in nearly every decent-sized town north of Phoenix, thus ensuring that those towns were part of the local market. When DirecTV and Dish Network started carrying local stations, they were obligated to provide the correct locals into any areas that could receive them over the air, and similar rules apply for the areas with cable. Basically, it's a self-perpetuating scheme where whoever got there first is nearly impossible to unseat.

[Scott5114]

The jobs can shift their hours

That's not really possible.  Jobs schedule their hours based on when people are in the stores, at restaurants, etc.  You can't ask the entire population to shift their shopping & eating habits.

Even for non-service businesses, there's also the issue that no business is an island, i.e. they have to interact with other businesses too. There's theoretically no reason a CPA can't do their work on 2nd (swing) shift, but they have to interact with banks, the post office, the tax commission, etc. and all of those are open on 1st shift. Plus, there is a general expectation from customers that you will be available for inquiries during normal business hours, so if a call placed at 10am consistently goes to voicemail they may be upset.

I work 2nd shift and run a small business on the side and have to try to tailor the business schedule around my 2nd shift job. Since I wake up around noon most days, this can sometimes cause issues when I miss a morning phone call from a vendor. I wake up and realize I have to call them back, but have to wait until 1pm to avoid lunch hour. This has led into some multi-day games of phone tag on a few occasions where we just keep missing each other.

[02 Park Ave]

If the politicians have imposed Daylight Savings Time on you, don't forget to turn your clocks ahead one hour tonight.  To follow the official procedure, get up at 2 am to do it.

[hotdogPi]

If the politicians have imposed Daylight Savings Time on you, don't forget to turn your clocks ahead one hour tonight.  To follow the official procedure, get up at 1:59 am to do it.

Fixed. There is no 2:00. 1:59:59 -> 3:00:00.

[vtk]

If the politicians have imposed Daylight Savings Time on you, don't forget to turn your clocks ahead one hour tonight.  To follow the official procedure, get up at 2:00 AM Standard Time to do it.

There is no 2:00.

Yes there is.  2:00 Standard Time = 3:00 Daylight Time.  It still exists; just, as soon as it is that time, Daylight Time becomes the normal expression of the current time.

[swbrotha100]

Don't more clocks reset automatically these days?

[Pink Jazz]

Don't more clocks reset automatically these days?

I know on computers and phones they do, but many people still use watches that don't reset automatically.