The Decline of Shopping Malls

[kurumi]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

[Pete from Boston]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

[thenetwork]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

Add to the fact that any store or restaurant can have their own hours.  Unlike if you are a mall tenant where you open and close when the mall tells you to...Including Black Friday!!!  Anchor stores and restaurants have a bit of leeway because they usually pay the highest rents.

[Brandon]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

Add to the fact that any store or restaurant can have their own hours.  Unlike if you are a mall tenant where you open and close when the mall tells you to...Including Black Friday!!!  Anchor stores and restaurants have a bit of leeway because they usually pay the highest rents.

Sometimes they actually own their own land and stores.  And just because the mall is open doesn't mean the store/restaurant needs to be open.  Chick-Fil-A has done this for decades in shopping malls.

[Pete from Boston]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

Add to the fact that any store or restaurant can have their own hours.  Unlike if you are a mall tenant where you open and close when the mall tells you to...Including Black Friday!!!  Anchor stores and restaurants have a bit of leeway because they usually pay the highest rents.

Sometimes they actually own their own land and stores.  And just because the mall is open doesn't mean the store/restaurant needs to be open.  Chick-Fil-A has done this for decades in shopping malls.

In malls, this flexibilty is the exception rather than the rule.

[cl94]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

Add to the fact that any store or restaurant can have their own hours.  Unlike if you are a mall tenant where you open and close when the mall tells you to...Including Black Friday!!!  Anchor stores and restaurants have a bit of leeway because they usually pay the highest rents.

Sometimes they actually own their own land and stores.  And just because the mall is open doesn't mean the store/restaurant needs to be open.  Chick-Fil-A has done this for decades in shopping malls.

In malls, this flexibilty is the exception rather than the rule.

Yes. My father was a regional manager for a now-defunct bookstore chain that was almost exclusively in malls. He still complains about the lease requirements set forth by Pyramid and Wilmorite...17 years after they went under.

[NJRoadfan]

I indirectly found out that a "traditional" mall is now called a "fortress mall" in the industry. The trend towards the outdoor "squares" has changed at least one mall plan here in NJ.... yes they plan on building another mall on top of a former Superfund site.

Original Plan:

Revised Plan:

Yet people are saying traditional malls are growing: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20131116/ISSUE01/311169981/giant-malls-are-a-crowded-b-popular-c-a-smart-investment-d-all-of-the-above

[thenetwork]

The giant all-inside mall surrounded by an ocean of parking is on its way out.  All over the country, I've seen these faux-main street retail developments being built in areas that would have spawned 'conventional' malls a generation or two ago.  They have narrow little streets and wide sidewalks; most parking is in garages.  Restaurants are scattered throughout, usually with outdoor seating.  There's usually condos and office space thrown in for good measure.

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

This appeals to a lot of customers, though. It looks public, but it's actually private; so the homeless, protesters, loiterers, etc. are kept out. Sort of a gated community for retail.

Even for the rest of us, it's not a real city street, but it's better than The Mall.

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

Add to the fact that any store or restaurant can have their own hours.  Unlike if you are a mall tenant where you open and close when the mall tells you to...Including Black Friday!!!  Anchor stores and restaurants have a bit of leeway because they usually pay the highest rents.

Sometimes they actually own their own land and stores.  And just because the mall is open doesn't mean the store/restaurant needs to be open.  Chick-Fil-A has done this for decades in shopping malls.

In malls, this flexibilty is the exception rather than the rule.

Exactly, I used to work at a mall where despite many inclement weather events, snow emergencies and employees who could not make it in for their shifts, they remained open, or opened at the appointed time and if your store did not open on time or closed early, your company could have to pay a fine to the mall.

Chick Fil-A can get away from not being open in the food court on Sundays because that was a chick-fil-a bargaining chip to be a part of the mall, as well as their credo.  The anchors can open early, close late or stay open all night if they want to because they are the anchors.  It's those 50-75 other smaller stores in the mall that have to "dance monkey dance" when the mall says so because they are interchangeable.

[jeffandnicole]

I think in our mall, if 2 of the 4 anchor stores are open, the rest of the mall is supposed to be open. Again, it's flexible. The mall opens at 7am for the mall walkers, and a store or two that serves coffee or pastries may be open as well.  There are some exceptions, notably Black Friday overnight (all the stores won't be open) but there are core hours the stores must be open.

[GCrites]

It strikes me as a safer investment than a mall.  Buildings are individualized and therefore flexible.  They can be reconfigured or replaced without a lot of disruption, and without the risk of creating a grim half-empty corridor people don't want to be in.  A clear problem with malls is that one that isn't in top form quickly races to the bottom, a white elephant that can't easily be retooled without massive investment.  Strip malls and this new variant have proven much less fickle a bet.

The problem with strip malls is that you have to create your own foot traffic in them. If you sell expensive items that people make a special effort to buy, things people NEED need or are financing things they can work. If you sell cheaper, nonessential items like we do (video games, DVDs, plush dolls, toys) your stuff will rot in a strip mall. You need literally hundreds of people coming into the store every day to make real money off of that stuff -- and we get that in the mall. 9 "pro" gamers coming in a day that are only looking for Chrono Trigger and Little Samson cannot keep you alive.

[Thing 342]

We've had a lot of these centers pop up on the Peninsula (including one right on top of a former mall), and none of them have done particularly well (Peninsula Town Center in Hampton did well for awhile, but I believe it's revenue has gone downhill since and it's changed hands at least once)

Most of our K-Marts have either closed up shop (such as the ones in Hampton and Denbigh) or have been shrunken and had other things move into the space (the one in Tabb, which was downsized in order to make room for a Kroger Marketplace). Our lone Sears in Hampton, however, has mostly chugged along, even after the mall it was in closed in the later 1990's.

[Doctor Whom]

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

The ones with which I am familiar are centrally planned attempts to replicate something whose appeal comes from the fact that it was not centrally planned.

[Jardine]

Remember when they were dying to go to the mall ??

[cl94]

One lifestyle center that is doing really well is Easton Town Center in Columbus. It effectively killed two malls in the area and has been expanding constantly since it opened in 1999.

[ixnay]

Who else has looked at Dan Bell's Dead Mall Series on YT?  I've seen his vids of Granite Run Mall (Media, PA), Mall at Steamtown (Scranton, PA), and Tri-State Mall (at the last exit of I-95 in Delaware northbound [DE 92]).  I grew up in the '70s on Granite Run and Tri-State when they were full malls, and I visited the Steamtown Mall when I visited Steamtown National Historic Site (a pedestrian bridge from the mall takes you to the NHS) in 2003 and the mall was full(er) even then.

ixnay

[Pete from Boston]

It's an admittedly lame attempt to duplicate the atmosphere of an actual neighborhood.  It's lame because it's artificial.  Everything is too polished and neat.  It's too new.  Someone is trying to manufacture what was abandoned generations ago and it shows.

The ones with which I am familiar are centrally planned attempts to replicate something whose appeal comes from the fact that it was not centrally planned.

This convoluted and dead-on explanation reminds me of Norton Commons, the artificial old-timey-neighborhood development on the Interstate outside Louisville.  It reduces history and architecture to a bunch of stereotypes out of a Restoration Hardware catalogue, with no meaningful order or pattern.  Evokes the feel of a kid wearing a fake mustache and his father's too-big suit.

[seicer]

It's high quality - but to those who can afford extremely expensive lots and $400,000 "modest" houses. I am amused by their downtown, which has a lot of holes - reminiscent of a downtown in decline, but really it's for buildings that have not yet been built.

[Pete from Boston]

If you have spent a lot of time living in towns over a hundred years old, the patterns are all off.  You have to suspend any desire to understand the story nature of the place, yet its whole M.O. is to trick you into thinking it has any.

I don't know what $400,000 buys in the Louisville area, but that's not unusual for a "modest" house near Boston.

[Brandon]

I don't know what $400,000 buys in the Louisville area, but that's not unusual for a "modest" house near Boston.

That's a price that seems to vary from region to region, and even within regions.  $400,000 will buy a decent house in Chicago, but a huge house in Joliet or Aurora (as an example).  $400,000 will buy a few acres of woodlands in the Upper Peninsula.

[ARMOURERERIC]

We've had a lot of these centers pop up on the Peninsula (including one right on top of a former mall), and none of them have done particularly well (Peninsula Town Center in Hampton did well for awhile, but I believe it's revenue has gone downhill since and it's changed hands at least once)

Most of our K-Marts have either closed up shop (such as the ones in Hampton and Denbigh) or have been shrunken and had other things move into the space (the one in Tabb, which was downsized in order to make room for a Kroger Marketplace). Our lone Sears in Hampton, however, has mostly chugged along, even after the mall it was in closed in the later 1990's.

I lived in the Hunting Heights section of Newport News from 1991-1996 and since I used to walk alot to city hall, I started my own study of what was originally downtown before it became an urban ruin.  It amazed me that in a short 2 years, downtown Newport News went from the largest downtown in Virginia to a dead ruin, mostly due to Newmarket Fair, and then how fast Newmarket Fair succumbed to Patrick Henry.  Coliseum Mall was the bomb back then and I shopped there a good 2-3 times a week.  I saw weakness develop there as I was leaving up in the Children's Palace wing, never thought tht it was the beginning of the end.  However for me the big raw was shopping at Montgomery Wards and with their demise after I moved to San Diego, I can see how that might have been the final nail in the mall's coffin.

I used to keep a newspaper clipping on my office wall ( I bought a condemned fixer at 4808 Huntington Ave in 1991 for $30K) and the clipping was a 1981 image of Washington Avenue near 30th street totally packed with shoppers, standing room only on the sidewalks.  At that time downtown Newport News had:

Sears at 28th and Huntington, the 1948 building is currently back in use for educational facilities.

JC Penny's at 30th and Washington
Nachmans on Washington between 31st and 32nd
Montgomery Ward on Washington between 29th and 30th, a big grand looking colonial brick building still in use for light industrial.
Grant's
Woolworths
Murphy's

1981 started with an announcement that Nachman's would undergo a muti-million renovation of it's downtown store.  By the end of the year the store would be completely demolished and another 250 small shops would have closed.

A revitalization deal was reached wherein the superblock from 26th to 28th, Washington to West would be completely torn down, including 2 huge churches, and the shipyard would build 2 30+ story office buildings.  The day before the ceremonial groundbreaking, the shipyard demanded a 20% tax break on it's existing facilities, was denied by the state, and did not even show for the groundbreaking.  The loss of the commercial activity in that 2 block stretch killed what was left of lower Washington.

[bing101]

Remember when they were dying to go to the mall ??

Umm people are dying to go to the mall but mainly when the news crews and shoppers are camping outside a mall talking about Black Friday on Thanksgiving week.  Yes its insane PR for the Mall and Big Box stores involved in this. Sure this strategy will backfire in some places.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HPfGg-AygY




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klxSynk-b8k&ebc=ANyPxKofrDTa2TBmzjKzxGPMOODRoRzNuPcdiISWbOUSMgFUSf0EYtwjk8x0RI8_ZAEROiNNovi1UZyWHTVf1DummT8UpLIe9A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgZWdxIxEro

[jeffandnicole]

Glad to know we have moved onto the exaggerated, something happens on extremely rare occasion by a few shoppers but let's act as if it involved every mall everywhere with everyone at all times.

[coatimundi]

I lived in the Hunting Heights section of Newport News from 1991-1996 and since I used to walk alot to city hall, I started my own study of what was originally downtown before it became an urban ruin.  It amazed me that in a short 2 years, downtown Newport News went from the largest downtown in Virginia to a dead ruin, mostly due to Newmarket Fair, and then how fast Newmarket Fair succumbed to Patrick Henry.

Your description of how Newport News used to look is really interesting to me.
Was this just general suburban migration, or was it exacerbated by the military scaling back in the early 90's, and/or the economic conditions then? That seems to be longer than most other downtowns lasted nationwide.

[triplemultiplex]

Remember when they were dying to go to the mall ??

Umm people are dying to go to the mall but mainly when the news crews and shoppers are camping outside a mall talking about Black Friday on Thanksgiving week.  Yes its insane PR for the Mall and Big Box stores involved in this. Sure this strategy will backfire in some places.

I'm not sure you were looking close enough at that picture to recognize a screencap from the '04 version of Dawn of the Dead.  The one where the zombies attack the mall.  The whole scenario was a metaphor for consumerism.

[jakeroot]

Remember when they were dying to go to the mall ??

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qb5DdmSHa0Y/TW_Ijf-qtAI/AAAAAAAAABk/RJuvBmnKZnw/s1600/dawn_of_the_dead_1978_404_303_photos12.jpg

Umm people are dying to go to the mall but mainly when the news crews and shoppers are camping outside a mall talking about Black Friday on Thanksgiving week.  Yes its insane PR for the Mall and Big Box stores involved in this. Sure this strategy will backfire in some places.

I'm not sure you were looking close enough at that picture to recognize a screencap from the '04 version of Dawn of the Dead.  The one where the zombies attack the mall.  The whole scenario was a metaphor for consumerism.

Not quite. The screenshot is from the 1978 (read: original) Dawn of the Dead with Tom Savini and Ken Foree, among others. The mall is chosen because of supplies and security, not because of some made-up allusion to consumerism, as much as some might believe that.