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Author Topic: New York  (Read 726004 times)

roadman65

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Re: New York
« Reply #4275 on: August 08, 2019, 09:40:45 PM »

Googlemaps show the removal of the WB NY 17 ramp from NY 32 SB in Woodbury, NY.  For traffic heading west from NY 32 now has another ramp at US 6.  Is that a permanent thing, or is that a temporary ramp during the NY 17 & 32 Bridge replacement?
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Re: New York
« Reply #4276 on: August 09, 2019, 12:21:39 AM »

Googlemaps show the removal of the WB NY 17 ramp from NY 32 SB in Woodbury, NY.  For traffic heading west from NY 32 now has another ramp at US 6.  Is that a permanent thing, or is that a temporary ramp during the NY 17 & 32 Bridge replacement?
everything is temporary right now

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Re: New York
« Reply #4277 on: August 09, 2019, 09:21:02 PM »

I believe the final configuration will be a DDI.
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roadman65

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Re: New York
« Reply #4278 on: August 09, 2019, 11:15:56 PM »

Correct https://www.exit131ny.com/#!  It will indeed be one slated for the Fall to be completed.

Also this bridge will conform to the interstate standards that NY 17 must conform to in order for I-86 to be implemented here.   The web link above says that NY 17 will be lowered 4 feet in order to increase the overhead clearance needed to be at minimum height for an interstate.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 11:25:58 PM by roadman65 »
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Re: New York
« Reply #4279 on: August 13, 2019, 11:29:01 AM »

Boy, a DDI and two new roundabouts? Gonna be a lot of confused drivers in that area!
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roadman65

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Re: New York
« Reply #4280 on: August 13, 2019, 12:58:18 PM »

Considering that in nearby NJ they have been getting rid of them (or they were in the 1990's anyway) and now they want to make the same mistakes as their neighbor did.

Heck if Florida did not learn what over developing did from New Jersey's mistake, why cannot New York either from other mistakes like this. 
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vdeane

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Re: New York
« Reply #4281 on: August 13, 2019, 01:04:58 PM »

Considering that in nearby NJ they have been getting rid of them (or they were in the 1990's anyway) and now they want to make the same mistakes as their neighbor did.

Heck if Florida did not learn what over developing did from New Jersey's mistake, why cannot New York either from other mistakes like this. 
A modern roundabout and an old-style NJ traffic circle are two completely different things.
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machias

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Re: New York
« Reply #4282 on: August 13, 2019, 01:26:44 PM »

Boy, a DDI and two new roundabouts? Gonna be a lot of confused drivers in that area!

Reading and comprehending signs and other markings should not be an exception to standard motorist behavior.
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kalvado

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Re: New York
« Reply #4283 on: August 13, 2019, 01:51:10 PM »

Boy, a DDI and two new roundabouts? Gonna be a lot of confused drivers in that area!

Reading and comprehending signs and other markings should not be an exception to standard motorist behavior.
Yeah, as engineers unlearn how to design, users have to put more effort into compensating for deficiencies..
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SignBridge

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Re: New York
« Reply #4284 on: August 13, 2019, 09:02:56 PM »

Vdeane, I recall that there are technical differences between an old-style traffic-circle and a roundabout. Could you briefly summarize the differences in layman's terms?
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roadman65

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Re: New York
« Reply #4285 on: August 13, 2019, 10:13:50 PM »

A circle is a circle no matter how big the circumference is.  Yes its my opinion, but so is it varying from state to state. In Massachusetts a NJ circle is a Rotary.  Anyway, they function the same regardless as they bring a bunch of roads together around a circle.  In NJ they caused accidents hence why they were considered being removed.   

Yes I know what you mean as basically a roundabout is a small island in the middle of an intersection where a circle is wide across the diameter and the road around constitutes a roadway itself.

Just so you know where US 9W and US 6 meet at Bear Mountain its a circle by NJ standards but whoever wrote about it in Wikipedia calls it a roundabout.
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Re: New York
« Reply #4286 on: August 14, 2019, 09:49:18 AM »

Quote from: roadman65
In Massachusetts a NJ circle is a Rotary.  Anyway, they function the same regardless as they bring a bunch of roads together around a circle.

No they don't.  In Massachusetts, *ALL* rotaries have traffic entering the circle yielding to traffic already in the circle, much as is the case for a roundabout.  Several of the New Jersey circles give right-of-way to the entering traffic instead....Flemington and Somerville being two examples.  This results in VERY DIFFERENT operational functions.  And it isn't the first time you've been told this on this forum.

To SignBridge:  roundabouts are designed with a smaller radii than traffic circles and flared entrances to reduce right-of-way requirements and reduce entering speeds (and thus reduce crash severity).  As I noted above, traffic already inside the roundabout has right-of-way over entering traffic, while the opposite is true of many New Jersey circles.  Roundabouts also don't have traffic signals, while many traffic circles (especially in D.C.) do.
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kalvado

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Re: New York
« Reply #4287 on: August 14, 2019, 10:21:44 AM »

Quote from: roadman65
In Massachusetts a NJ circle is a Rotary.  Anyway, they function the same regardless as they bring a bunch of roads together around a circle.

No they don't.  In Massachusetts, *ALL* rotaries have traffic entering the circle yielding to traffic already in the circle, much as is the case for a roundabout.  Several of the New Jersey circles give right-of-way to the entering traffic instead....Flemington and Somerville being two examples.  This results in VERY DIFFERENT operational functions.  And it isn't the first time you've been told this on this forum.

To SignBridge:  roundabouts are designed with a smaller radii than traffic circles and flared entrances to reduce right-of-way requirements and reduce entering speeds (and thus reduce crash severity).  As I noted above, traffic already inside the roundabout has right-of-way over entering traffic, while the opposite is true of many New Jersey circles.  Roundabouts also don't have traffic signals, while many traffic circles (especially in D.C.) do.
You may add lane design, where at certain exits of roundabout outer lane is an exit-only lane, making inner lane  an outer one. So exit from inner lane is not an issue. Lane designation for certain exits and especially communicating that information to drivers is a weak point of many roundabouts, though 
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empirestate

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Re: New York
« Reply #4288 on: August 14, 2019, 10:55:44 PM »

Boy, a DDI and two new roundabouts? Gonna be a lot of confused drivers in that area!

Reading and comprehending signs and other markings should not be an exception to standard motorist behavior.

And a plethora of news articles every time a new one goes in. However, lest the specifics detract from my underlying point, I'll offer a revision of your response:

Quote

Reading and comprehending signs and other markings should not be an exception to standard motorist behavior.

Or to put it another way: having once (or twice, or a zillion times) been given a piece of information, to what extent should we be reasonably expected to have, comprehend and retain that information?
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roadman65

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Re: New York
« Reply #4289 on: August 14, 2019, 11:50:01 PM »

Quote from: roadman65
In Massachusetts a NJ circle is a Rotary.  Anyway, they function the same regardless as they bring a bunch of roads together around a circle.

No they don't.  In Massachusetts, *ALL* rotaries have traffic entering the circle yielding to traffic already in the circle, much as is the case for a roundabout.  Several of the New Jersey circles give right-of-way to the entering traffic instead....Flemington and Somerville being two examples.  This results in VERY DIFFERENT operational functions.  And it isn't the first time you've been told this on this forum.

To SignBridge:  roundabouts are designed with a smaller radii than traffic circles and flared entrances to reduce right-of-way requirements and reduce entering speeds (and thus reduce crash severity).  As I noted above, traffic already inside the roundabout has right-of-way over entering traffic, while the opposite is true of many New Jersey circles.  Roundabouts also don't have traffic signals, while many traffic circles (especially in D.C.) do.

Who cares the technical terms.  They exist!  This is not an exam at MIT where we must know the technical term.  It's like  Chef and a Kitchen Manager in a Restaurant are both the same function, though one went to school and receives not only the title but the respect to have him addressed as "Chef" and not by name.  Yet both manage a kitchen staff.

I lived in NJ and we call them circles even though the Pole Tavern one is more of roundabout then a circle.  When I took my drivers ed in high school, the NJ circle by default had the traffic entering the circle yield to those inside it.  Now I see yield signs in many places inside the circle giving the traffic entering the right away.  Like Jeff once said, since I left a lot of traffic laws changed since then ( I am out of NJ for 29 years now)so what I saw then is not the case now.

What is in a name?  Yes non road geeks do not count here but long as we call what we see and not call a bridge a tunnel or so forth.  However, circles and roundabouts may be different technically they both act pretty much the same.

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Re: New York
« Reply #4290 on: August 15, 2019, 12:27:44 AM »


No they don't.  In Massachusetts, *ALL* rotaries have traffic entering the circle yielding to traffic already in the circle, much as is the case for a roundabout.

Errr... no, not even close to ALL. There are several smaller rotaries, off the state highway system, where there is basically a free-for-all.

J N Winkler

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Re: New York
« Reply #4291 on: August 15, 2019, 01:09:20 AM »

Vdeane, I recall that there are technical differences between an old-style traffic circle and a roundabout. Could you briefly summarize the differences in layman's terms?

These days, practitioners use traffic circle as a general term for circular intersections that do not have yield on entry, roundabout being reserved for those that do.

The AASHO Blue Book (forerunner to the current Green Book) used to lay out criteria for circular intersections called rotaries.  These had large-diameter central islands because the expectation was that entering traffic would merge at relatively high speed.  Whether there was a priority rule was a legal matter for the jurisdiction involved, and yield on entry was not considered an essential feature of the design.

Research later carried out in the UK and Australia showed it was more efficient to have smaller central islands with a yield-on-entry rule.  Current-generation roundabouts in the US are of this type.

Most of the Northeastern traffic circles/rotaries are closer in design to the traditional AASHO rotary.  Some have been retrofitted with a yield-on-entry rule; the original roundabout research from the UK showed this improved operational efficiency even with large central islands.

Just to make sure everything is clear as mud, traffic circle and roundabout themselves have passed into laymen's language and are not necessarily used in the sense intended by practitioners.  In the UK, for example, the word roundabout (originally invented in the 1920's by an American working for the BBC) is applied to circular intersections regardless of whether yield on entry applies (some have a different priority rule for site-specific reasons).
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Rothman

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Re: New York
« Reply #4292 on: August 15, 2019, 06:39:50 AM »


No they don't.  In Massachusetts, *ALL* rotaries have traffic entering the circle yielding to traffic already in the circle, much as is the case for a roundabout.

Errr... no, not even close to ALL. There are several smaller rotaries, off the state highway system, where there is basically a free-for-all.
Where?  The smaller rotaries I can think of still expect entering drivers to yield.
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froggie

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Re: New York
« Reply #4293 on: August 15, 2019, 08:42:04 AM »

Steve, please cite examples so that we can notify the proper authorities, since Title 14, Chapter 89, Section 8 of Massachusetts state law states that Any operator of a vehicle entering a rotary intersection shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle already in the intersection.


To roadman65:  technicality has nothing to do with it.  It's how they operate and how the law is written.  Perhaps in your area of New Jersey, traffic entering the traffic circle yielded, but I know from my own experience over the past 2 decades that there are several traffic circles in Jersey where that is not the case.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 08:44:07 AM by froggie »
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kalvado

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Re: New York
« Reply #4294 on: August 15, 2019, 09:02:08 AM »

Boy, a DDI and two new roundabouts? Gonna be a lot of confused drivers in that area!

Reading and comprehending signs and other markings should not be an exception to standard motorist behavior.

And a plethora of news articles every time a new one goes in. However, lest the specifics detract from my underlying point, I'll offer a revision of your response:

Quote

Reading and comprehending signs and other markings should not be an exception to standard motorist behavior.

Or to put it another way: having once (or twice, or a zillion times) been given a piece of information, to what extent should we be reasonably expected to have, comprehend and retain that information?
An interesting question about reading and comprehending.
Twice a year  I have to adjust some clocks - I assume you also have to. Some of my clocks (computers, phones) do that on their own. Some require pressing a few buttons. There is one clock where you have to know the trick (press unlock button 5 times)- which I happen to remember after doing it once
Up until lately, I had a clock (on the mp3 player in a car) where I had to find an appropriate section in the manual to adjust - EVERY SINGLE TIME. Even then, it wasn't an easy task.  You may say that it is me being an idiot, who has problems here - but I tend to blame that design.
Same with the road design. Lots of things are intuitive. Most speed limits are intuitive. Traffic lights, once learned, are pretty much intuitive. Problems occur when bad designs (even with best intentions) come into play - FYA (which requires reading about it once, as it is against the basic flashing yellow concept - but within the limits) or HAWK, where nobody exactly sure what those mean, or lane reduction with plenty of legal contradiction.
Some designs just tend to bring the mess to the extreme...  Designing things to be intuitive requires a lot of effort - something lacking in certain places...
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vdeane

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Re: New York
« Reply #4295 on: August 15, 2019, 09:05:46 PM »

I don't find such things to be unintuitive at all.  Proper pavement markings go a long way.  In these examples, the roundabout lane assignment is just like a turning lane, and going the wrong way through the DDI would be a clear right turn.
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Alps

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Re: New York
« Reply #4296 on: August 16, 2019, 01:23:14 AM »


No they don't.  In Massachusetts, *ALL* rotaries have traffic entering the circle yielding to traffic already in the circle, much as is the case for a roundabout.

Errr... no, not even close to ALL. There are several smaller rotaries, off the state highway system, where there is basically a free-for-all.
Where?  The smaller rotaries I can think of still expect entering drivers to yield.
Maybe you expect it, but the signs tend to go missing. Now, is this veering off topic?
https://goo.gl/maps/6JwCGjsAJYRDEZ9dA - functions as an elongated rotary
https://goo.gl/maps/HQ6viZcxM8ntVNum8 - there's a yield sign there NOW, but in 2007 and earlier...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 01:25:30 AM by Alps »
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kalvado

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Re: New York
« Reply #4297 on: August 16, 2019, 10:20:03 AM »

I don't find such things to be unintuitive at all.  Proper pavement markings go a long way.  In these examples, the roundabout lane assignment is just like a turning lane, and going the wrong way through the DDI would be a clear right turn.
Intuitive is an antithesis to "proper marking".  And yes, they go a long way: https://imgur.com/a/15r4ynE - actually on that particular circle I see cars going wrong way on the circle - a head-on approach happens to me approximately every other year. Either I am pretty lucky, or that should  happen a few times a week at that location.
Proper pavement marks can get worn out or covered with snow. THink about multilane roads maintaining most of their functionality in those cases - this is what I mean by intuitive.
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Re: New York
« Reply #4298 on: August 16, 2019, 10:46:58 AM »

Tappan Zee Bridge signs being patched:

https://hosted.ap.org/republicanherald/article/8c6b66e40c6a4c8f8d9f742153bb115e/ny-fixing-new-bridge-signs-due-ex-govs-missing-initial

Edit: replaced with a link to the full AP version of the article.
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Re: New York
« Reply #4299 on: August 16, 2019, 10:50:27 AM »

Tappan Zee Bridge signs being patched:

https://hosted.ap.org/republicanherald/article/8c6b66e40c6a4c8f8d9f742153bb115e/ny-fixing-new-bridge-signs-due-ex-govs-missing-initial

Edit: replaced with a link to the full AP version of the article.
When I saw the title for the first time, I thought they are patching " Gov. Cuomo bridge" to "Gov. M. Cuomo bridge"
Not that would be fun.
 
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