Inconsistencies in signing

[roadfro]

On State Route 22 approaching East Long Beach, is the speed limit 45 at this point or about to be 45?

I'd say go with the more restrictive and interpret that the 45 speed starts at this point. Odd, I haven't seen too many "XX Zone Ahead" speed signs in California.


OT: Incredibly odd trajectories of the concrete pavement there, with asphalt in between. I'm guessing a realignment?

[MarkF]

On State Route 22 approaching East Long Beach, is the speed limit 45 at this point or about to be 45?

I'd say go with the more restrictive and interpret that the 45 speed starts at this point. Odd, I haven't seen too many "XX Zone Ahead" speed signs in California.


OT: Incredibly odd trajectories of the concrete pavement there, with asphalt in between. I'm guessing a realignment?

It was once planned for CA22 to continue as a freeway to the west.

[Occidental Tourist]

On State Route 22 approaching East Long Beach, is the speed limit 45 at this point or about to be 45?

I'd say go with the more restrictive and interpret that the 45 speed starts at this point. Odd, I haven't seen too many "XX Zone Ahead" speed signs in California.


OT: Incredibly odd trajectories of the concrete pavement there, with asphalt in between. I'm guessing a realignment?

The freeway was built over the top of a surface street.  To accommodate an interchange that was built, the alignment of the freeway was shifted south of the original street, but portions of the pavement from the original street still remain.

[CtrlAltDel]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

[PHLBOS]

Side note it's nice to see PTC properly using Clearview these days.

Don't hold your breath with that one.  Unfortunately, a concurrent & adjacent PTC sign replacement project along I-276 goes overboard with multiple misapplications of the Clearview font as well as oversizing the destination text and possibly undersizing the BGS-mounted I-shields. 

To their credit & at least they use Series C numerals for all of their 3di shields instead of the asinine Series B or the CAD-elongated Series D.

[bzakharin]

On Parvin Mill Road in Parvin State Park (southern NJ), going South you see:
Speed Limit 40: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.529943,-75.111417,3a,75y,256.16h,66.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sIwTx3AbNxzo3YoTERiaaLw!2e0!5m1!1e1
Reduce Speed Ahead: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.517785,-75.123565,3a,75y,217.07h,67.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxTeR1xGGB1uDZxHyOLFArg!2e0!5m1!1e1
Still 40: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.51601,-75.124514,3a,75y,205.56h,65.34t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sd0Z9b8iDqthWG6yjFG_FtA!2e0!5m1!1e1

But in the other direction, there is a Speed Limit 50 in the same place where the Second 40 is:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.515897,-75.124574,3a,75y,21.24h,76.49t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVqqwnAGUTu0_Gtm7gAzD-w!2e0!5m1!1e1

So most likely that first 40 should be a 50. Unless you actually have different speed limits in different directions. If that's the case, the reduced speed sign actually refers to a 30 even further south (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.508103,-75.128542,3a,75y,174.08h,75.24t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGIY255gbgN4tfCtR99RB8Q!2e0!5m1!1e1), but I don't recall ever seeing a reduce speed sign followed by the same speed limit, followed by a reduction later anywhere else.

[jeffandnicole]

On Parvin Mill Road in Parvin State Park (southern NJ), going South you see:
Speed Limit 40: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.529943,-75.111417,3a,75y,256.16h,66.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sIwTx3AbNxzo3YoTERiaaLw!2e0!5m1!1e1
Reduce Speed Ahead: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.517785,-75.123565,3a,75y,217.07h,67.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxTeR1xGGB1uDZxHyOLFArg!2e0!5m1!1e1
Still 40: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.51601,-75.124514,3a,75y,205.56h,65.34t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sd0Z9b8iDqthWG6yjFG_FtA!2e0!5m1!1e1

But in the other direction, there is a Speed Limit 50 in the same place where the Second 40 is:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.515897,-75.124574,3a,75y,21.24h,76.49t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVqqwnAGUTu0_Gtm7gAzD-w!2e0!5m1!1e1

So most likely that first 40 should be a 50. Unless you actually have different speed limits in different directions

Especially on 2 lane roads, they're supposed to be the same.  I'm familiar with 2 other instances of this: 1 case the road is signed 40 when it should be 45.  But another case it's signed 40 when it should be 35!  In both cases, the incorrect limit has been posted for many years.   

In a 3rd case, I was familiar with another instance of a 35 mph signed with a 45 mph limit!  Using GSV's historical street view, here's the 45 mph posted back in 2009 (https://goo.gl/maps/D75xY), and with it's proper 35 mph limit sign in 2013 (https://goo.gl/maps/zczn2).

[bzakharin]

There is another one now that I think about it, also 50 vs 40. It's been there as long as I can remember:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.924802,-74.959959,3a,75y,222.61h,69.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5KjAV7eOkdKhOBq-0FDYsQ!2e0
and I assume it's supposed to be 40 seeing as it's a pretty populated area.

And I don't know if it counts as an inconsistency, but this sign on the same road https://www.google.com/maps/@39.921444,-74.963956,3a,75y,196.57h,78.39t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sDk3eZ_i6FvkVDPoxL0E_FQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000 (and the "Begin Burlington County 673" in the other direction) is only technically right. This is the county line and the road continues as Camden County 673.

[JKRhodes]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

OT: I wonder if that's the first step of Utah attempting to transition away from usage of City as a suffix and into a more traditional "City of (blank)" format.  When I was up there a month ago, locals simply referred to it as Salt Lake. I have noticed, however, that most of the cities up there are billed as "(blank) City" in official correspondence.

[odditude]

There is another one now that I think about it, also 50 vs 40. It's been there as long as I can remember:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.924802,-74.959959,3a,75y,222.61h,69.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5KjAV7eOkdKhOBq-0FDYsQ!2e0
and I assume it's supposed to be 40 seeing as it's a pretty populated area.

And I don't know if it counts as an inconsistency, but this sign on the same road https://www.google.com/maps/@39.921444,-74.963956,3a,75y,196.57h,78.39t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sDk3eZ_i6FvkVDPoxL0E_FQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000 (and the "Begin Burlington County 673" in the other direction) is only technically right. This is the county line and the road continues as Camden County 673.

600-series routes are not continuous across county lines, and in many cases either change numbers or are not a county route on the other side of the county line. this is an exception.

Springdale is definitely supposed to be 50, and that speed limit is consistent with other roads in the area. i always used to take Hainesport-Mt Laurel/Greentree to Sprindale/White Horse to get to the Echelon Mall area when I was younger (and when Echelon wasn't a joke).

[bzakharin]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

OT: I wonder if that's the first step of Utah attempting to transition away from usage of City as a suffix and into a more traditional "City of (blank)" format.  When I was up there a month ago, locals simply referred to it as Salt Lake. I have noticed, however, that most of the cities up there are billed as "(blank) City" in official correspondence.

Most "City of X City" cities in New Jersey are known as "X City", while "City of X" are simply "X". The exceptions are Margate and Ventnor (both in Atlantic County) which are both "City of X City", but are just known as "X". There is also Borough of Surf City, which is known as Surf City.

[bzakharin]

There is another one now that I think about it, also 50 vs 40. It's been there as long as I can remember:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.924802,-74.959959,3a,75y,222.61h,69.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5KjAV7eOkdKhOBq-0FDYsQ!2e0
and I assume it's supposed to be 40 seeing as it's a pretty populated area.

And I don't know if it counts as an inconsistency, but this sign on the same road https://www.google.com/maps/@39.921444,-74.963956,3a,75y,196.57h,78.39t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sDk3eZ_i6FvkVDPoxL0E_FQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000 (and the "Begin Burlington County 673" in the other direction) is only technically right. This is the county line and the road continues as Camden County 673.

600-series routes are not continuous across county lines, and in many cases either change numbers or are not a county route on the other side of the county line. this is an exception.

Springdale is definitely supposed to be 50, and that speed limit is consistent with other roads in the area. i always used to take Hainesport-Mt Laurel/Greentree to Sprindale/White Horse to get to the Echelon Mall area when I was younger (and when Echelon wasn't a joke).

They don't *have* to be continuous, but this one is (Proof at the very next traffic light: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.90532,-74.966295,3a,37.5y,261.46h,83.3t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNoAaYhYHU16d6KRe_WUe8A!2e0). Camden County isn't compelled to have its own "Begin 673" sign after the "End 673" sign from Burlington County. And this is the only County Route I know that doesn't change its number, but has End/Begin signs. Here is CR-616 at the same county line: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.931232,-74.980913,3a,75y,281.4h,84.6t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sC1cjKTN3Ts1qCe5NK1UNXQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000
No begin/end signs

[vtk]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

OT: I wonder if that's the first step of Utah attempting to transition away from usage of City as a suffix and into a more traditional "City of (blank)" format.  When I was up there a month ago, locals simply referred to it as Salt Lake. I have noticed, however, that most of the cities up there are billed as "(blank) City" in official correspondence.

Most "City of X City" cities in New Jersey are known as "X City", while "City of X" are simply "X". The exceptions are Margate and Ventnor (both in Atlantic County) which are both "City of X City", but are just known as "X". There is also Borough of Surf City, which is known as Surf City.

Same in Ohio. We have Grove City, officially City of Grove City, never just Grove, nor City of Grove. And we have Hilliard, officially City of Hilliard, which never has City on the end. Unless you're talking about Hilliard City Schools, which despite the name is not a function of the City of Hilliard.



Back on topic...

Years ago ODOT decided to change the westbound control city for I-70 west out of Columbus to Dayton, where it had previously been Indianapolis. There are still quite a few signs that were never amended, mostly on or approaching I-270, or on surface streets.

[odditude]

There is another one now that I think about it, also 50 vs 40. It's been there as long as I can remember:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.924802,-74.959959,3a,75y,222.61h,69.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5KjAV7eOkdKhOBq-0FDYsQ!2e0
and I assume it's supposed to be 40 seeing as it's a pretty populated area.

And I don't know if it counts as an inconsistency, but this sign on the same road https://www.google.com/maps/@39.921444,-74.963956,3a,75y,196.57h,78.39t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sDk3eZ_i6FvkVDPoxL0E_FQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000 (and the "Begin Burlington County 673" in the other direction) is only technically right. This is the county line and the road continues as Camden County 673.

600-series routes are not continuous across county lines, and in many cases either change numbers or are not a county route on the other side of the county line. this is an exception.

Springdale is definitely supposed to be 50, and that speed limit is consistent with other roads in the area. i always used to take Hainesport-Mt Laurel/Greentree to Sprindale/White Horse to get to the Echelon Mall area when I was younger (and when Echelon wasn't a joke).

They don't *have* to be continuous, but this one is (Proof at the very next traffic light: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.90532,-74.966295,3a,37.5y,261.46h,83.3t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNoAaYhYHU16d6KRe_WUe8A!2e0). Camden County isn't compelled to have its own "Begin 673" sign after the "End 673" sign from Burlington County. And this is the only County Route I know that doesn't change its number, but has End/Begin signs. Here is CR-616 at the same county line: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.931232,-74.980913,3a,75y,281.4h,84.6t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sC1cjKTN3Ts1qCe5NK1UNXQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000
No begin/end signs

...hence "this is an exception"

[Scott5114]

Problem with state names is they're so nonspecific. Imagine going through Indianapolis on WB I-70. "Illinois" would make sense for both NB I-65 and WB I-70. But they go to very different places.

[NE2]

No matter where in Florida you're headed, you want to take I-10 east from the end of I-65. Mississippi is sketchier, but if you've already gotten to the end of I-65, you're probably best off taking I-10 west.

[mhh]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

Michigan has the "Village of Mackinaw City" and the "City of the Village of Clarkston".

[JKRhodes]

We have a Town of Colorado City in Arizona.

http://www.leagueaz.org/lgd/index.cfm?area=main&cid=15

We also have a "Town of Gilbert" with a population of 230,000. Arizona law allows for incorporation under either a town or city charter regardless of population.

[Brandon]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

Michigan has the "Village of Mackinaw City" and the "City of the Village of Clarkston".

Then there's the Village of Elk Grove Village in Illinois.  Yes, that's the full name.

[Brandon]

Problem with state names is they're so nonspecific. Imagine going through Indianapolis on WB I-70. "Illinois" would make sense for both NB I-65 and WB I-70. But they go to very different places.

Depends on where you are.  Around Chicago, Wisconsin and Indiana make sense as going that way will get you to all Wisconsin points (I-90/94 west/I-294 north) or all Indiana points (I-90/94 east/I-294 south/I-80 east).  Iowa works well as well.  Using I-80 or I-88 west will get you to all Iowa points.

[theline]

Problem with state names is they're so nonspecific. Imagine going through Indianapolis on WB I-70. "Illinois" would make sense for both NB I-65 and WB I-70. But they go to very different places.

Depends on where you are.  Around Chicago, Wisconsin and Indiana make sense as going that way will get you to all Wisconsin points (I-90/94 west/I-294 north) or all Indiana points (I-90/94 east/I-294 south/I-80 east).  Iowa works well as well.  Using I-80 or I-88 west will get you to all Iowa points.

I could get snarky about Scott's comment and point out that I-65 doesn't go to Illinois. I agree with Brandon that the control cities of Wisconsin, Indiana, and Iowa make a lot of sense in Chicagoland, where they are used. From the first time I saw them, they were perfectly clear to me. Illinois wouldn't make sense in Indianapolis, but it's not used there.

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It bothers me far more that there is in fact an entity officially named the "City of Salt Lake City."

Michigan has the "Village of Mackinaw City" and the "City of the Village of Clarkston".

Then there's the Village of Elk Grove Village in Illinois.  Yes, that's the full name.

In Indiana, we've got the Town of Parker City and the Town of Rome City.

[bzakharin]

On Parvin Mill Road in Parvin State Park (southern NJ), going South you see:
Speed Limit 40: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.529943,-75.111417,3a,75y,256.16h,66.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sIwTx3AbNxzo3YoTERiaaLw!2e0!5m1!1e1
Reduce Speed Ahead: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.517785,-75.123565,3a,75y,217.07h,67.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxTeR1xGGB1uDZxHyOLFArg!2e0!5m1!1e1
Still 40: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.51601,-75.124514,3a,75y,205.56h,65.34t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sd0Z9b8iDqthWG6yjFG_FtA!2e0!5m1!1e1

But in the other direction, there is a Speed Limit 50 in the same place where the Second 40 is:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.515897,-75.124574,3a,75y,21.24h,76.49t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVqqwnAGUTu0_Gtm7gAzD-w!2e0!5m1!1e1

So most likely that first 40 should be a 50. Unless you actually have different speed limits in different directions. If that's the case, the reduced speed sign actually refers to a 30 even further south (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.508103,-75.128542,3a,75y,174.08h,75.24t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGIY255gbgN4tfCtR99RB8Q!2e0!5m1!1e1), but I don't recall ever seeing a reduce speed sign followed by the same speed limit, followed by a reduction later anywhere else.

I just drove through there again yesterday and noticed that the "4" in that first "Speed Limit 40" was pasted on, so it may have been intentionally lowered from a 50 that was there before. That does not explain why the other direction is still 50 or why the "reduced speed ahead" sign is still there.

[jbnv]

Problem with state names is they're so nonspecific. Imagine going through Indianapolis on WB I-70. "Illinois" would make sense for both NB I-65 and WB I-70. But they go to very different places.

Depends on where you are.  Around Chicago, Wisconsin and Indiana make sense as going that way will get you to all Wisconsin points (I-90/94 west/I-294 north) or all Indiana points (I-90/94 east/I-294 south/I-80 east).  Iowa works well as well.  Using I-80 or I-88 west will get you to all Iowa points.

I really think that LaDOTD should co-sign I-12 at its split from I-10 in Baton Rouge as "Mississippi" since if you are going to Mississippi, you will want to take I-12 and bypass New Orleans rather than stay on I-10.

[doorknob60]

There is another one now that I think about it, also 50 vs 40. It's been there as long as I can remember:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.924802,-74.959959,3a,75y,222.61h,69.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5KjAV7eOkdKhOBq-0FDYsQ!2e0
and I assume it's supposed to be 40 seeing as it's a pretty populated area.

Not an inconsistency, but speaking of high speed limits in populated areas, check out Eagle Rd (ID-55) in Meridian, ID: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.634545,-116.35423,3a,75y,359.11h,88.53t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sZu7C0DpvHoiueT6MrD2M8g!2e0

55 speed limit, on a road that would probably be around 40 typically (traffic moves at 40-45 normally, except during rush hour where, good luck moving at all). Meridian has grown so fast, that a lot of this area was undeveloped not too long ago, but now it's suburbia and there's big box stores and shopping centers lining it from I-84 all the way to ID-44. I guess this is a case of the speed limit not keeping up with the development. As nice as it is to be able to go 55 in light traffic, I fully expect the limit to lower down to 45 or 40 sometime.

Even looking at the most recent street view (Oct 2011) at the intersection of Fairview and Eagle, it is completely unrecognizable to me. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.620015,-116.354418,3a,75y,10.75h,80.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sB2vRtX_2WjbeUWCROpuJLA!2e0 It's farm land, less than 4 years ago. There is a huge shopping center there on the east side of Eagle now, as you can see if you go into satellite view. (I don't remember if there's currently anything on the west side of the highway).

Also odd that if you continue on Eagle Rd. south of I-84 (where it's no longer a state highway), the road stays generally similar (though less congested), but the speed limit drops to 40 (well, there is a 50 zone between Fairview and I-84 but still): https://www.google.com/maps/@43.589658,-116.354557,3a,75y,180.59h,75.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1scvuHlsQkC6xa2ne7VRCejg!2e0

[route17fan]

Would this one count?

OH 751 for County Rd 21/Stone Creek (1/2 mile) https://www.google.com/maps/@40.38524,-81.560633,3a,36.5y,42.64h,93.69t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s2ErAvilkSynTnguQyjbeMw!2e0

At the exit ramp, it becomes County Rd 53 (!)/Stone Creek
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.389804,-81.559194,3a,18.7y,34.58h,91.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQ5LCWv_Fk8btkGMF08Rokw!2e0

Granted, both are correct - but more of them say County Rd 21 (old US 21 in this case) than do County Rd 53.