I fucking ABHOR protected left turn arrows

[NE2]

Since the countdown is based on the speed of a slower-than-average walker, the only way to reduce the amount of time would be to only permit faster walkers to cross intersections.

...slower walkers would still be in the intersection when it changes to don't walk. But if drivers were actually willing to wait for slower peds to clear, that wouldn't be a problem.

[kphoger]

And the above post is a clear and concise explanatory summation of the original point. *whew*

[Duke87]

Are automatic/dynamic signals really that uncommon in the US?

Fully actuated signals, where the controller has the authority to vary the length of a phase based on demand, are as far as I know quite rare in the US. And basically impossible to do at any intersection where the walk signal is automatic rather than only when requested by pushbutton. Semi-actuated signals, where phases that aren't needed can be skipped, are more common, but still hardly universal. Lots of places haven't spent the money on installing the necessary equipment either because they don't have it or haven't seen fit to. New York City's traffic signals are mostly still on simple timers and will change with or without cross traffic.


Nonetheless, even with actuation, it's silly to keep signals running when there are very few cars on the road. In addition to the aforementioned problem of triggering for one lousy right turning car, you also will have signals that keep cycling because one of the detector loops is broken and safe failure means the light keeps changing so as to not strand anyone there. Any and all signals ought to be set to flash at any times when traffic counts are below the threshold of what warrants their existence.

As for bikes, yes, "Idaho stop" is a sensible policy. Of course, most stop signs out there really ought to be yield signs anyway.

[cl94]

Are automatic/dynamic signals really that uncommon in the US?

Fully actuated signals, where the controller has the authority to vary the length of a phase based on demand, are as far as I know quite rare in the US. And basically impossible to do at any intersection where the walk signal is automatic rather than only when requested by pushbutton. Semi-actuated signals, where phases that aren't needed can be skipped, are more common, but still hardly universal. Lots of places haven't spent the money on installing the necessary equipment either because they don't have it or haven't seen fit to. New York City's traffic signals are mostly still on simple timers and will change with or without cross traffic.

There's a difference between "fully actuated" and "dynamic". The former means that sensors at an intersection control the operation of a single signal based on vehicles entering an intersection, while the latter uses an interconnected network of sensors to change cycle lengths throughout a network based on network demand. Fully actuated signals are quite common, especially as municipalities upgrade their signals. In Upstate New York outside of cities, the ability for fully-actuated operation is the norm, even in the suburbs. Semi-actuated is when at least one phase always operates on a timer. Dynamic installations, however, are rare due to their cost.

[tradephoric]

Fully actuated signals, where the controller has the authority to vary the length of a phase based on demand, are as far as I know quite rare in the US. And basically impossible to do at any intersection where the walk signal is automatic rather than only when requested by pushbutton. Semi-actuated signals, where phases that aren't needed can be skipped, are more common, but still hardly universal. Lots of places haven't spent the money on installing the necessary equipment either because they don't have it or haven't seen fit to. New York City's traffic signals are mostly still on simple timers and will change with or without cross traffic.

A signal can be adaptively controlled with automatic walks.  The problem with automatic walks is the required vehicle phase time may be less than the required pedestrian time, leading to inefficient operations at the intersection.  An adaptive signal is handcuffed by a lot of settings baked into the controller...it can't violate the minimum green time, yellow, all red, ECOs, and ped times (among others).  By having pushbuttons, the adaptive signal doesn't get handcuffed as badly.

[JKRhodes]

You need to drive in Tucson more. Tucson does things differently than most cities, in that it's a rarity to have a protective left turn signal anywhere in the city limits. There are any intersections where there are dual left turn lanes that have permissive/protected left turns 24/7.

In my recent trips to Tucson, I've seen very few drivers creeping into the intersection during the green ball phase compared to ten years ago, suggesting the drivers nowadays are more inclined to wait for the arrow. Have you noticed this too?

[jakeroot]

You need to drive in Tucson more. Tucson does things differently than most cities, in that it's a rarity to have a protective left turn signal anywhere in the city limits. There are any intersections where there are dual left turn lanes that have permissive/protected left turns 24/7.

In my recent trips to Tucson, I've seen very few drivers creeping into the intersection during the green ball phase compared to ten years ago, suggesting the drivers nowadays are more inclined to wait for the arrow. Have you noticed this too?

Could be poor education. Many people believe that being in the intersection while it is red, regardless of the signal color when they entered, is illegal.

I was taught in driver's ed to enter the intersection on both an FYA and a green ball when turning left. But other people, like my sister and mom, don't do it.

[riiga]

Could be poor education. Many people believe that being in the intersection while it is red, regardless of the signal color when they entered, is illegal.

I was taught in driver's ed to enter the intersection on both an FYA and a green ball when turning left. But other people, like my sister and mom, don't do it.

FYA? Is that "flashing yellow arrow"? I tried reading about it on Wikipedia but am still not the wiser about it.

Entering an intersection for left turn (or any direction here) is allowed only on green. Does the US allow entering on yellow? Or left turns on red? 

[kkt]

Left turns on red are allowed in most states... as long as it's from a one-way street to another one-way street 

[Big John]

FYA? Is that "flashing yellow arrow"? I tried reading about it on Wikipedia but am still not the wiser about it.

yes

[jeffandnicole]

Could be poor education. Many people believe that being in the intersection while it is red, regardless of the signal color when they entered, is illegal.

I was taught in driver's ed to enter the intersection on both an FYA and a green ball when turning left. But other people, like my sister and mom, don't do it.

FYA? Is that "flashing yellow arrow"? I tried reading about it on Wikipedia but am still not the wiser about it.

Entering an intersection for left turn (or any direction here) is allowed only on green. Does the US allow entering on yellow? Or left turns on red? 

Flashing yellow arrows or lights are for caution: You may enter the intersection while exercising caution.  In regards to the FYA, you may proceed to turn when safe to do so.

Don't confuse it with a steady yellow light, which indicates the signal is going to turn red.  You can still enter on a yellow if you're too close to the intersection to stop safely.  However, you're not supposed to hit the gas and speed up to get into the intersection prior to the light turning red!

[Brandon]

Could be poor education. Many people believe that being in the intersection while it is red, regardless of the signal color when they entered, is illegal.

I was taught in driver's ed to enter the intersection on both an FYA and a green ball when turning left. But other people, like my sister and mom, don't do it.

FYA? Is that "flashing yellow arrow"? I tried reading about it on Wikipedia but am still not the wiser about it.

Entering an intersection for left turn (or any direction here) is allowed only on green. Does the US allow entering on yellow? Or left turns on red? 

Depends on the state.

In Illinois, as long as you enter on yellow, you can proceed through the intersection.  If you are waiting for a permissive left turn (be it a green ball or a flashing yellow arrow), you pull into the intersection and wait.  Even if the signal turns red, you are permitted to wait until all oncoming traffic clears (including the red light runners) before completing your turn.  Left turn on red is permitted only from a one-way to a one-way in Illinois.

Michigan is similar to Illinois; however, left turns on red are allowed from two-way to one-way streets, including freeway entrance ramps.

[swbrotha100]

You need to drive in Tucson more. Tucson does things differently than most cities, in that it's a rarity to have a protective left turn signal anywhere in the city limits. There are any intersections where there are dual left turn lanes that have permissive/protected left turns 24/7.

In my recent trips to Tucson, I've seen very few drivers creeping into the intersection during the green ball phase compared to ten years ago, suggesting the drivers nowadays are more inclined to wait for the arrow. Have you noticed this too?

I honestly don't know. With most left turn signals being lagging left, I'm guessing some drivers would just sit behind the stop line and trip the sensors to get a green arrow.

[riiga]

I see. I would guess the rules for standard green, yellow and red are the same throughout the world, apart from right turns on red. The flashing yellow arrow was interesting though. So it's like a yield sign, while flashing red is a full stop? Is there flashing green?

[Big John]

I see. I would guess the rules for standard green, yellow and red are the same throughout the world, apart from right turns on red. The flashing yellow arrow was interesting though. So it's like a yield sign, while flashing red is a full stop? Is there flashing green?

Not supposed to be one in the USA, though that are a few rare instances of them.  But they are around in Canada, for either meaning the turning movement is protected or it is a signalized pedestrian crossing.

[TEG24601]

The best two solutions I can thing of, and both come from Michigan...


1) Flashing Red on the Protect Left signal.  Stop wait for a clear spot in traffic, then go.  Do no enter the intersection.


2) Michigan Lefts.  Eliminate left turns at certain intersections, and force U-Turns.

[jakeroot]

Or left turns on red? 

Michigan is similar to Illinois; however, left turns on red are allowed from two-way to one-way streets, including freeway entrance ramps.

As does Washington. Funny thing is, there is no restriction on the number of lanes or style of signal (i.e. arrow or ball). So you can have a triple left onto an on-ramp and technically you can proceed when it's clear. I've never encountered a triple-left onto a freeway on-ramp personally, but I have turned left from a dual left onto the on-ramp on red before. People are a bit confused but no one has ever honked.

1) Flashing Red on the Protect Left signal.  Stop wait for a clear spot in traffic, then go.  Do no enter the intersection.

Presuming this is an alternative to a protected signal, following the topic of this thread, why can't you enter the intersection while the signal is flashing red? You should still be able to enter the intersection and wait till it's clear, kind of like a right on red (you slowly inch out and wait till it's clear).

[Brandon]

The best two solutions I can thing of, and both come from Michigan...


1) Flashing Red on the Protect Left signal.  Stop wait for a clear spot in traffic, then go.  Do no enter the intersection.

In theory, yes.  In practice...

More like if clear, just fucking go.  If not, wait for it to be clear, then just fucking go.  And yes, everyone enters the intersection on them.

[hbelkins]

Could be poor education. Many people believe that being in the intersection while it is red, regardless of the signal color when they entered, is illegal.

Not sure if it's the case now or not, but once upon a time in Kentucky, it was illegal to be in intersection when the light turned red, regardless of what color it was when you entered. There was language to that effect in the state police-issued student driver manual that I received when I took my learner's permit test.

[NE2]

Popo lie.

[Brandon]

Popo lie.

Not necessarily.  Louisiana has the same law, IIRC.  Meanwhile, an Illinois State Trooper said that even when a red light camera is present, you can sit in the intersection all damn day until it clears to make your left turn without a camera ticket as you will have entered on green.

[dfwmapper]

Does the presence of a "Yield on (FYA)" or "Yield on (green ball)" sign imply that one should wait behind the stop line for traffic to clear, or is waiting within the intersection still good? I still haven't figured out if the sign changes anything.

[signalman]

Does the presence of a "Yield on (FYA)" or "Yield on (green ball)" sign imply that one should wait behind the stop line for traffic to clear, or is waiting within the intersection still good? I still haven't figured out if the sign changes anything.

Whether a sign is there or not, I still think it boils down to the given that one is in as to whether it's legal to enter the intersection while waiting to make a left turn.  The signage is merely there to remind the driver of what they should already know (certainly true for the green ball sign, the FYA sign might be helpful since it's a relatively new signal display and not all drivers are familiar with it).

[jeffandnicole]

Does the presence of a "Yield on (FYA)" or "Yield on (green ball)" sign imply that one should wait behind the stop line for traffic to clear, or is waiting within the intersection still good? I still haven't figured out if the sign changes anything.

You should always pull into the intersection.

[Scott5114]

Problem with these is that during low traffic periods, you often have one car coming in the green direction, a car pulls up to the red light and it cycles to stop the first car. Even more frustrating when the second car is turning right and could have just gone after the first car passed. We have an expressway in Norman configured like this and it's annoying to have to come to a complete stop from 50 mph so one random person can turn right.

If the lights are set to flash, it eliminates unnecessary stops.

You could have a right turn signal. Or a slip lane with yield signs. Or priority/far away detectors for the expressway.

You could, but all of these cost money (and therefore are unlikely to happen in the current US political climate). Switching to flash mode is a cheap software change.