Night Speed Limits

[kphoger]

I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.

Probably because white is associated with day and black with night.

It's clearly racism. White is used for the nice higher daytime speed limit everyone likes and black is used for the lower nighttime speed limit that annoys people. Randy Marsh would be proud.

Is this going to turn into yet another Daylight Savings Time thread?

* kphoger ducks for cover

[briantroutman]

They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.

Does anyone have photos of one of these units? I remember reading in the 1971 MUTCD:

...reflectorization of the nighttime speed superimposed over the unreflectorized numerals of the daytime speed, to permit only the nighttime speed to become legible in the beam of motor-vehicle headlamps at night.

It seems to me that this setup would be troublesome at twilight and under odd conditions where a strong light source is directly behind the motorist, causing both sets of numerals to be visible.

[corco]

That is odd. They use these in Tucson (only the night speed limit is reflectorized), but that's not quite the same thing.
http://goo.gl/maps/Qxjs3

[The High Plains Traveler]

There were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.

Do you happen to know when this determination was made?  I went to Colorado on a roadtrip (US 160 corridor mostly from Walsenburg to Cortez, with a loop that included the Million Dollar Highway length of US 550) over Labor Day weekend in 2012, and found these wildlife speed limit signs in extensive use.  When I did some Web research afterward (not just on these signs, but also the wilfully obscure MEPDG signs), I found a CDOT press release touting them.

Something I thought I heard actually did occur. Here is the press release. https://www.codot.gov/news/2014-news-releases/12-2014/cdot-removing-wildlife-zones-signs-lowered-nighttime-speed-limits

[TEG24601]

With modern vehicles and their ability to cast light, especially with high beams, Night Speed Limits are a poor idea, just like Truck Speed Limits.

Have you ever driven in heavily wooded areas with large deer populations? Deer running suddenly into the road are a very good reason for lower night speed limits in some places. Not everywhere, mind you, and I'd certainly agree with your statement if you'd phrased it in terms of blanket night speed limits being unnecessary. But particular circumstances can and do make them appropriate in some places.

I LIVE in a heavily wooded area with tons of deer, largely due to hippies not wanting to hunt, and I still feel with modern headlight technology, that night speeds are dumb.

[SquonkHunter]

Utah did prior to 1974. They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.

We had those in Texas too. Most of them I remember were 70 day/65 night.

[J N Winkler]

do wildlife speedlimit signs look any different than night and normal speed signs?

The pure regulatory signs did not--the only "extra" not in the MUTCD was a date range plate in white on black.  The sign panel detail sheet is here:

https://www.codot.gov/library/traffic/traffic-manuals-guidelines/fed-state-co-traffic-manuals/copy_of_WLZone.pdf

Additional information on the signing:

https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/press-releases/new-legislation-sets-201cwildlife-crossing-zones201d-to-protect-drivers-and-wildlife/at_download/file

(My thanks to High Plains Traveler for digging up the press release explaining why the program was cancelled.)

Photos of the signs as installed:

https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/SpeedlimitsignsinBV002.JPG/view

https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/US6WildlifeSignCloseUp.JPG/view

https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/Wildllife%20signs%20012.JPG/view

https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/Wildllife%20signs%20027.JPG/view

Pattern-accurate mockup (the sign design sheet linked above won't render correctly on your PC unless you magically have the SignCAD fonts installed):

https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/Wildlife%20Sign.JPG/view

They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.

Does anyone have photos of one of these units? I remember reading in the 1971 MUTCD:

...reflectorization of the nighttime speed superimposed over the unreflectorized numerals of the daytime speed, to permit only the nighttime speed to become legible in the beam of motor-vehicle headlamps at night.

It seems to me that this setup would be troublesome at twilight and under odd conditions where a strong light source is directly behind the motorist, causing both sets of numerals to be visible.

I have no photos, unfortunately, although I do have sign design sheets:



Under twilight and extreme frontal lighting there might be problems with the night limit "ghosting" under the day limit, but I don't know that these would have been more serious than the shortcomings of other reflectorization practices then in use, such as rendering black "EXIT ONLY" against yellow on lane-drop signs in button copy.  I strongly suspect it was the NMSL rather than reflectorization voodoo that killed these day/night signs.

[vdeane]

But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."

That is definitely true.  At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY.  This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it.  Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.

[silverback1065]

But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."

That is definitely true.  At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY.  This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it.  Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.

I believe Indiana has the same stupid law.  there's no reason why the speed limit in Indianapolis (or any of the urban areas in indiana) on the interstates can't be 65, with the exception of the downtown area interstates.

[Scott5114]

I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.

Probably because white is associated with day and black with night.

Well, yes, but a black sign in the dark isn't exactly the epitome of visibility...

[jeffandnicole]

But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."

That is definitely true.  At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY.  This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it.  Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.

I believe Indiana has the same stupid law.  there's no reason why the speed limit in Indianapolis (or any of the urban areas in indiana) on the interstates can't be 65, with the exception of the downtown area interstates.

When the NMSL was first partially eliminated, I believe the law was 65 was only permitted in rural areas. Chances are New York & Indiana wrote their law as such, yet never updated their laws in the many years since the NMSL was fully repealed.

Here in NJ, due to much of the state being near urban areas, very little of the state would've been permitted to be signed at 65 MPH. In hindsight, it was a good thing they waited until after the NMSL was repealed in full before they allowed 65, as this did allow a lot more highway to be signed with the faster speed limit.

[PurdueBill]

Steve's FL I-95 page has a daytime pic of a stealth speed limit sign like this; it would be cool to see day vs. night but at least the night numerals are somewhat visible.

[vdeane]

When the NMSL was first partially eliminated, I believe the law was 65 was only permitted in rural areas. Chances are New York & Indiana wrote their law as such, yet never updated their laws in the many years since the NMSL was fully repealed.

Here in NJ, due to much of the state being near urban areas, very little of the state would've been permitted to be signed at 65 MPH. In hindsight, it was a good thing they waited until after the NMSL was repealed in full before they allowed 65, as this did allow a lot more highway to be signed with the faster speed limit.

New York actually held to 55 even after NMSL was partially repealed, with 65 only appearing after NMSL was fully repealed and the reign of the first Cuomo (the one named after the video game character) ended.  At the time, 65 was only allowed in rural areas of the legislature's choosing.  Later in the 90s, the requirements for being in a rural area and legislative defining were removed, but speed limit changes still require a request from the municipality.  Colonie and Halfmoon never requested the speed limit raised on the Northway between NY 7 and Vischers Ferry, so it hasn't been.  Meanwhile, Colonie DID request a 65 mph speed limit on NY 7, so they got it.  This has lead to the strange situation where the roadway where nobody wants to go faster than 60 has a speed limit of 65, but the road where many people try to go 70 is 55.

[theline]

But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."

That is definitely true.  At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY.  This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it.  Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.

I believe Indiana has the same stupid law.  there's no reason why the speed limit in Indianapolis (or any of the urban areas in indiana) on the interstates can't be 65, with the exception of the downtown area interstates.

Indiana had such a law after the repeal of the national 55 MPH limit. I am sure that it was rescinded or modified, because the limit has been increased in many urban areas in recent years. Example 1: the Indiana Toll Road once had a limit of 55 or lower between the west terminus and Portage and in the South Bend area. Many portions in those areas have been raised to 65 and 70, although they are within the borders of rather large cities. Example 2: the entire St. Joseph Valley Parkway has a limit of 65, even though it passes through South Bend and Elkhart city limits.

[roadman]

I would bet one reason night SL's have gone away is because who gets to say when "day" ends and "night" begins?  Sunset?  A set time after sunset? Same for sunrise?  What if it's cloudy and you can't tell where the sun is?  What if there's a mountain that blocks the sun in one place but doesn't in another?

These questions would matter if someone is going to try and write a speeding ticket for violating a nighttime SL.

Logically, the times that a night speed limit is in effect should be no different than the times drivers are legally required to have their headlights on (usually 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise).

[J N Winkler]

Logically, the times that a night speed limit is in effect should be no different than the times drivers are legally required to have their headlights on (usually 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise).

But is that half-hour after, half-hour before rule still in effect?  It was in Kansas when I first got my driver's license, but I seem to remember it was later changed to sunset to sunrise.  For years now I have simply been turning on my headlamps whenever the sun dips completely below the horizon, just to make sure I can't be ticketed for failing to operate my headlamps past whatever civil lights-on time may apply in a given jurisdiction.

Frankly, I worry less about when to turn on headlamps for night than I do about Canadian daytime headlamp use laws.  I believe it is the law in every province in Canada that if you have a vehicle with DRLs as factory equipment, you must use them.  However, I do not know the legal position in each province for cars that do not have DRLs.  In Nova Scotia, you are required to turn on your low beams during the day if you do not have DRLs and your car is not old enough to obtain a special exemption that is available for antiques.  This has the potential to create great grief for cars with no automatic headlamp shutoff.  For similar reasons, I am heavily critical of US states like New Mexico that use safety corridors requiring daytime headlamp use but do not clearly sign corridor limits or use headlamp reminder signs.

[corco]

I just turn my headlights on when I enter Canada.


As far as New Mexico or Nevada's safety corridors- I typically leave my lights on when traveling long distances on two lane roads anyway to make myself more visible to oncoming passers.

I've gotten myself into the subconscious habit of looking at my lights as I walk away from my car, so I don't inadvertently leave them on.

[freebrickproductions]

If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?

Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.

The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.

[silverback1065]

If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?

Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.

The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.

A special speed limit for rain? Interesting, do these have special signs too?

[freebrickproductions]

If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?

Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.

The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.

A special speed limit for rain? Interesting, do these have special signs too?

Yep.
http://www.instantstreetview.com/@34.717009,-86.549369,-65.49h,-3.59p,3z
They used to say "Raining" rather than "when wet", IIRC.

Cecil Ashburn Drive also has these special "when wet" speed limits, which were added later:
http://www.instantstreetview.com/@34.666274,-86.529976,-202.76h,-5.7p,3z

[J N Winkler]

I just turn my headlights on when I enter Canada.

I do the same.  If I had the certainty that I could turn them off without being bothered by the police, I would turn them off.

As far as New Mexico or Nevada's safety corridors- I typically leave my lights on when traveling long distances on two lane roads anyway to make myself more visible to oncoming passers.

Some of New Mexico's badly signed safety corridors are on four-lane divided highways, like the I-40 Gallup bypass (there is no end-of-corridor signing as you go east) or US 64 between Shiprock and Farmington.  I am not sure I have actually driven any two-lane safety corridors in New Mexico.

California has a generally good approach to safety corridor signing, but some districts (e.g. District 1) are more scrupulous about using "Check headlights" signs on a zone basis than others (e.g. District 6).  I believe there is also at least one example of a safety corridor without mandatory daytime headlamp use, though the specific one escapes me (perhaps SR 65 between Bakersfield and Porterville?).

I will turn on my headlamps whenever I am in a safety corridor that requires their use or visibility is subpar, but otherwise I prefer to keep them off, to save fuel, wear and tear on electrical components, and obscuring my turn signals.  My car is white, so I tend not to worry about visibility.

I've gotten myself into the subconscious habit of looking at my lights as I walk away from my car, so I don't inadvertently leave them on.

This is a good habit to get into and I have more or less done the same.  I now carry stuff in the trunk instead of the rear passenger seat, to save wear and tear on 21-year-old power door lock actuators, which means my taillamps are usually in my field of vision when I leave the car.  However, it takes just one slip, with driver in a hurry and car parked in an isolated location, to cause problems.

Even with good habits and situational awareness, automatic headlamp shutoff is a benefit, as is cruise control when the goal is effortless compliance with speed limits, automatic forward gear count greater than four when the top speed limit is greater than 70, etc.

[roadman]

Can't speak for other states, but Massachusetts still has the "half hour after sunset until half hour before sunrise" law for nighttime headlight use.  We also have three 'daytime headlight use" corridors - the most notable (and oldest) one being the "Super 2" section of Route 2 between Orange and Phillipston.  However, there is no law mandating daytime headlight use in these corridors.

[hotdogPi]

Can't speak for other states, but Massachusetts still has the "half hour after sunset until half hour before sunrise" law for nighttime headlight use.  We also have three 'daytime headlight use" corridors - the most notable (and oldest) one being the "Super 2" section of Route 2 between Orange and Phillipston.  However, there is no law mandating daytime headlight use in these corridors.

1. The one you just mentioned.
2. MA 125 near its southern end.

What's the third one?

[PHLBOS]

Can't speak for other states, but Massachusetts still has the "half hour after sunset until half hour before sunrise" law for nighttime headlight use.  We also have three 'daytime headlight use" corridors - the most notable (and oldest) one being the "Super 2" section of Route 2 between Orange and Phillipston.  However, there is no law mandating daytime headlight use in these corridors.

1. The one you just mentioned.
2. MA 125 near its southern end.

What's the third one?

US 20 between MA 12 & 49 in Oxford/Charlton.

[bugo]

I just turn my headlights on when I enter Canada.

I do the same.  If I had the certainty that I could turn them off without being bothered by the police, I would turn them off.

As far as New Mexico or Nevada's safety corridors- I typically leave my lights on when traveling long distances on two lane roads anyway to make myself more visible to oncoming passers.

Some of New Mexico's badly signed safety corridors are on four-lane divided highways, like the I-40 Gallup bypass (there is no end-of-corridor signing as you go east) or US 64 between Shiprock and Farmington.  I am not sure I have actually driven any two-lane safety corridors in New Mexico.

California has a generally good approach to safety corridor signing, but some districts (e.g. District 1) are more scrupulous about using "Check headlights" signs on a zone basis than others (e.g. District 6).  I believe there is also at least one example of a safety corridor without mandatory daytime headlamp use, though the specific one escapes me (perhaps SR 65 between Bakersfield and Porterville?).

I will turn on my headlamps whenever I am in a safety corridor that requires their use or visibility is subpar, but otherwise I prefer to keep them off, to save fuel, wear and tear on electrical components, and obscuring my turn signals.  My car is white, so I tend not to worry about visibility.

I've gotten myself into the subconscious habit of looking at my lights as I walk away from my car, so I don't inadvertently leave them on.

This is a good habit to get into and I have more or less done the same.  I now carry stuff in the trunk instead of the rear passenger seat, to save wear and tear on 21-year-old power door lock actuators, which means my taillamps are usually in my field of vision when I leave the car.  However, it takes just one slip, with driver in a hurry and car parked in an isolated location, to cause problems.

Even with good habits and situational awareness, automatic headlamp shutoff is a benefit, as is cruise control when the goal is effortless compliance with speed limits, automatic forward gear count greater than four when the top speed limit is greater than 70, etc.

I turn my headlights on at all times of day. I have DRLs anyway and I have gotten into the habit of turning them on every time i get into the car.