Geographical changes in response to SC church shooting?

[hbelkins]

This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

Will there be any fallout from this controversy regarding road names and other geographical/geopolitical matters?

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

What about Lee Highway, especially in Virginia where US 11 is named Lee Highway for most of its distance? Will there be a demand to change the name of the road named after the Confederate general?

I know of at least three high schools in Kentucky whose teams are nicknamed "Rebels." In the past there has been some outcry for some of those schools to change their mascots (most notably by a now-dead Jesse Jackson wannabe from the Louisville/Shelbyville area). I expect that effort to start back up.

[froggie]

Even before the church shooting (going back at least some years), there's been occasional rumblings about renaming Jefferson Davis Highway (US 1) in parts of Northern Virginia.

I've always found it curious that it's Jeff Davis Hwy in Prince William, Alexandria, and Arlington, but Richmond Hwy in Fairfax County.  Mapmikey recently did some research on the names and the conclusion is that the Richmond Hwy name came first.

[SP Cook]

If we can keep the politics out of this, I'm sure this thread will generate quite a list of roads, towns, counties, parks and so on that are named for various CSA figures, particularly Lee, Davis, and Jackson.    Pretty common, even some outside the South proper.  I could name dozens and dozens. 

And, bluntly, if you are going to judge the people of the past according to current PC standards, you are not going to stop feeling superior to the dead with the CSA.  Give my anybody and I can find some thing they did or said that is currently out of fashion.   Are we going to end up with counties named 1 through howmanyever because no one is worthy of honoring?

A few years ago I went to a history seminar at my local college.  I went because a politician I admired was giving a non-political lecture.  But I sat through the prelims.  One of the things was several grad students presenting papers.  One guy pretty much presented a talk about Pres. Wilson and judeged him by modern societial standards.  The profs just ate him alive.  The dean said something like "the study of history is the study of a society as it was, not the application of our values to the past."  Yep, I agree.

The best analogy I can find is early America.  Especially Virginia.  Half the counties in Virginia are named for British royality, as is the state itself.  Also plenty of streets and roads.  Also in some other east coast states.  Now the people of1789 didn't go around renaming all of those places, now did they.

Actually I bet 75% of people in a typical county could not tell the first name of whoever their county was named for, or what he (or she) did  to deserve it.

[theline]

I know of at least three high schools in Kentucky whose teams are nicknamed "Rebels." In the past there has been some outcry for some of those schools to change their mascots (most notably by a now-dead Jesse Jackson wannabe from the Louisville/Shelbyville area). I expect that effort to start back up.

My hometown, Muncie, Indiana, had a Southside High School, which had the ill-chosen nickname Rebels. The school opened in 1962 and closed in 2014. They adopted the Stars and Bars as the official school flag. In the '60s they mounted a Confederate-uniformed student on horseback during football games. The horse trotted the sidelines, waving the flag to rally the fans.

Needless to say, the flag was a huge point of contention between white and black students for many years. It led to many ugly events in and out of the school. Its use was one point included in a discrimination lawsuit filed against Muncie schools in the '70s. Use of the flag was mercifully limited in later years.

Perhaps some localities will consider "renaming" things for other people with the same last name. There is precedent for that: Washington state's King County was originally named for slave-holding Vice-President William Rufus King. The namesake was changed to Dr. Martin Luther King in 2005: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_County,_Washington.

How about (Spike) Lee County? 

[Brandon]

This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

Will there be any fallout from this controversy regarding road names and other geographical/geopolitical matters?

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

What about Lee Highway, especially in Virginia where US 11 is named Lee Highway for most of its distance? Will there be a demand to change the name of the road named after the Confederate general?

Many things named "Lee" also fit under Richard Henry Lee and Lighthorse Harry Lee as well, both from the Revolutionary War.

Now, things named specifically for Jefferson Davis (such as Jefferson Davis Parish, LA) on the other hand...

[sipes23]

It's probably going to depend on the individual case. For example in Chicago, I'd say that most people refer to the former North Western Station as Ogilvie these days. On the other hand, I've only ever heard a child refer to the Sears Tower as the Willis Tower. The split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

I'd not at all be surprised to find out that the Lee/Davis/Jackson stuff staying with the same name. Jefferson Davis Parish, LA, might be another story.

[triplemultiplex]

It be nice to get George Wallace's name off of stuff in Alabama.  Makes the state look bad to have all that traffic on I-10 going through a tunnel named after an unapologetic racist asshole.  Reminds everyone how extremely popular he was not incredibly long ago.

[Rothman]

It be nice to get George Wallace's name off of stuff in Alabama.  Makes the state look bad to have all that traffic on I-10 going through a tunnel named after an unapologetic racist asshole.  Reminds everyone how extremely popular he was not incredibly long ago.

Hmmmmm...:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-03-11/news/1995070104_1_marchers-montgomery-wallace

[Pete from Boston]

It be nice to get George Wallace's name off of stuff in Alabama.  Makes the state look bad to have all that traffic on I-10 going through a tunnel named after an unapologetic racist asshole.  Reminds everyone how extremely popular he was not incredibly long ago.

Unapologetic?  I guess you don't know he came to renounce his racism.  Whether or not Wallace is a  good person to honor, we ought to salute people who step out from behind the excuses of history to do the right thing.  People who learn are good examples.

Lee might get cut some slack.  In his own time he was respected by even his enemies, held himself as a gentleman throughout, and lost with dignity.  The "execrable commerce" his side stood for, however, will not allow these facts to stand alone.

[WashuOtaku]

This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

This is only for clarification:  the furor is in regards of the Battle Flag, which is not the Stars & Bars nor the official flag of the Confederacy.  Source Wikipedia

[Zzonkmiles]

South Carolina has Calhoun County and Lee County. No way those are getting renamed. I'm sure there are roads named after them too. Interestingly enough, however, I don't think SC has a Jefferson Davis Highway. If it does, I've never seen it.

[hbelkins]

Wasn't the Jefferson Davis Highway one of the original named roads, like the Lincoln Highway or the Midland Trail or the Dixie Highway? (And, coincidentally, the Lee Highway?)

[mgk920]

I heard a rumble out of one of the Capitol area 'usual suspects' in Madison, WI about wanting to rename the city.  Why?  James Madison owned slaves.



Mike

[WashuOtaku]

South Carolina has Calhoun County and Lee County. No way those are getting renamed. I'm sure there are roads named after them too. Interestingly enough, however, I don't think SC has a Jefferson Davis Highway. If it does, I've never seen it.

Jefferson Davis Highway is US 1 through the state.  There are several markers that still exist along the route and some former legs; one of which is located on the state house grounds, on the side US 1 travels by on.  Here's a picture I took of it:

[Zzonkmiles]

South Carolina has Calhoun County and Lee County. No way those are getting renamed. I'm sure there are roads named after them too. Interestingly enough, however, I don't think SC has a Jefferson Davis Highway. If it does, I've never seen it.

Jefferson Davis Highway is US 1 through the state.  There are several markers that still exist along the route and some former legs; one of which is located on the state house grounds, on the side US 1 travels by on.  Here's a picture I took of it:

Thanks. It only makes sense for SC to name US-1 after Jefferson Davis. I also know SC has a town called Dixiana southeast of Columbia.

At any rate, I've always found it far more useful for US routes to be named after the cities they connect to than for famous people. SC has Charleston Highway, Augusta Highway, Columbia Highway, etc. I'd wager there are a lot of people out there, even in the local areas, who don't even know who Jefferson Davis is.

[tidecat]

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

Honestly if Kentucky were to go to the expense of renaming a county, I would hope it would just combine the county with one of its neighbors.  Given how Owsley County has been depopulating perhaps it would be a good candidate for consolidation with Lee County.  Kentucky has way too many counties.

As a side note I audited the Owsley County Clerk's office a couple of times.  Sid Gabbard's legal troubles did not surprise me at all.

[WashuOtaku]

Thanks. It only makes sense for SC to name US-1 after Jefferson Davis. I also know SC has a town called Dixiana southeast of Columbia.

At any rate, I've always found it far more useful for US routes to be named after the cities they connect to than for famous people. SC has Charleston Highway, Augusta Highway, Columbia Highway, etc. I'd wager there are a lot of people out there, even in the local areas, who don't even know who Jefferson Davis is.

The Jefferson Davis Highway was part of the old Auto-Trail system that traversed between San Diego, California and Washington, D.C.  When U.S. Highways were established, they followed these auto trails.  Another example is US 25, which overlaps the Dixie Highway.

A vast majority of these roads don't identify with the former Auto-Trail anymore, going instead of the U.S. or State highway it traverses along now.

As for renaming cities and counties, that is very unlikely to happen.  I know there are groups intent to whitewash history, but unless it's real offensive, it's not going to happen.

[dgolub]

This isn't a road thing, but the one thing in my area of the country that comes to mind is that one of the residential colleges at Yale is Calhoun College, named for John C. Calhoun.  The name has been controversial for a long time, and a bit surprising to find on such a liberal campus.

[WashuOtaku]

This isn't a road thing, but the one thing in my area of the country that comes to mind is that one of the residential colleges at Yale is Calhoun College, named for John C. Calhoun.  The name has been controversial for a long time, and a bit surprising to find on such a liberal campus.

Please try to keep this thread about highways in general, otherwise it will likely be moved to "Off Topic" by admin.

[Zzonkmiles]

What do you think would become of the "Adopt A Highway" signs if the roads were being maintained by entities like Sons of Confederate Veterans or something similar?

[bandit957]

The split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

It's an insult to the sport to refer to a sports venue by its corporate name. Riverfront Stadium is gone now, but never ever EVER refer to it as "Cinergy Field."

Ever.

It would be different for a building that actually houses some part of a corporation.

[bandit957]

Also, a county in South Dakota was just recently renamed because it was named for a man who helped swindle Native Americans out of their land.

[mgk920]

The split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

It's an insult to the sport to refer to a sports venue by its corporate name. Riverfront Stadium is gone now, but never ever EVER refer to it as "Cinergy Field."

Ever.

It would be different for a building that actually houses some part of a corporation.

So then what would you call Wrigley Field?

Mike

[bandit957]

So then what would you call Wrigley Field?

Wrigley Field was named for Mr. Wrigley himself, not his gum company.

[hbelkins]

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

Honestly if Kentucky were to go to the expense of renaming a county, I would hope it would just combine the county with one of its neighbors.  Given how Owsley County has been depopulating perhaps it would be a good candidate for consolidation with Lee County.  Kentucky has way too many counties.

As a side note I audited the Owsley County Clerk's office a couple of times.  Sid Gabbard's legal troubles did not surprise me at all.

Lee and Owsley have too much of a rivalry -- not limited to just high school sports -- for such a consolidation to ever go over, although I would be in favor of it because it would be logical.

Sid Gabbard's problems were well-known even before he was indicted.