Why does Wisconsin use oversized directional arrow markers?

[peterj920]

I noticed that WIS DOT decided to go from rectangular arrow signs on route signs to square arrow signs in 1993.  I don't think I have seen any other state use square arrow signs, and just about all counties use rectangular signs also.  Does anyone know the reason why the DOT switched from rectangular arrow signs that just about everyone uses to oversize square arrow signs?

[SSOWorld]

No idea, but they've taken it too far - in short order, I bet the only cut out Interstate shields left will be on local and county roads.  They're really into the "unisign"

[Roadguy]

There is a balance for signage:
Too small/little amounts and it gets lost.
Too big/too many and it overwhelms drivers.

Roundabouts are an area where this signage balance is extremely important.  WisDOT has learned through real life practices that this is true.

That is a great question in terms of rectangular to square, in my opinion it is excessive.  Probably the state sign engineer who signed off on it back then knows exactly why and if you asked someone why today, no one would know.  But unless there is a substantial reason to change it, we will probably never see it changed back.  My one guess would be that Wisconsin has a history of using wooden versus metal for route signs.  Maybe the square arrow signs work better with wood?  That's a long shot but worth the guess.

[peterj920]

I don't think the wood vs metal has anything to do with it because most single route markers were metal for the most part, and most new signs are metal and one panel, or as SSO World likes to call a "unisign."  All the new I-41/US 41 signs north of Richfield are aluminum, and on Wis 29 a lot of signs were being replaced with metal as one panel, whether it's a reassurance, junction, or directional sign.  The smaller assemblies are at least 4' long while the bigger ones are 6' long.  It doesn't seem to matter how big the sign is, seems like it's one panel.  The first I-41 south reassurance sign is 12' long, and it's a single aluminum panel!  There's I-41/US 41/ US 141/ Lake Michigan Circle Tour which is why it's so long.  Can check out that sign on interstate-guide.com

[hobsini2]

I noticed that WIS DOT decided to go from rectangular arrow signs on route signs to square arrow signs in 1993.  I don't think I have seen any other state use square arrow signs, and just about all counties use rectangular signs also.  Does anyone know the reason why the DOT switched from rectangular arrow signs that just about everyone uses to oversize square arrow signs?

I have a theory on this. If they make them the bigger squares, they don't have to change the template in the sign shop.

[DaBigE]

Arguably, the larger arrows are more visible--more "target value". Similar to why WisDOT prefers the vertically-oriented ONE WAY sign. The rectangular arrow plaques are in the WisDOT sign manual as an option, but only in green/white form for bicycle facilities. The square arrow panels are also more idiot-proof from a fabrication perspective, as hobsini2 postulates.

As for the "unisigns" (J-assemblies as WisDOT refers to them), there are some counties and municipalities that still use individual panels for route shields, cardinals, as well as rectangular directional arrows. If they order the signs through WisDOT, they will almost always be unisigns and have square arrow panels. County maintenance forces are still free to order signs on their own through other vendors or make them in-house. You'll see new installations utilizing rectangular arrows installed sprinkled about the state, but they are the exception. Some places also try to cheat and use the same MUTCD rectangular arrow for thru and left/right.

Don't expect to see the unisigns go away anytime soon, as from what I've been told, the installation crews like them better, as they're faster to install. On the flip side, if only part of the sign is damaged, instead of just replacing the damaged panel(s), the whole damn sign needs to be refabricated.

I'll try asking the state signing engineer the next time I see him, but like Roadguy suggests, the current staff likely has no clue. And until there is a problem, they will continue the status quo. I raised a similar question as to why the 8-in white gore marking lines continue [5-ft] beyond the nose of a channelization island, and the response I got was "that's just the way it's been done".

[peterj920]

Arguably, the larger arrows are more visible--more "target value". Similar to why WisDOT prefers the vertically-oriented ONE WAY sign.

The vertical ONE WAY signs may be on their way out.  I traveled on US 10 west of Waupaca last week and all of the vertical ONE WAY signs were replaced with horizontal ONE WAY signs.  The setup was exactly like the illustration in MUTCD Figure 2B-16 in their 2009 edition.   

[DaBigE]

Arguably, the larger arrows are more visible--more "target value". Similar to why WisDOT prefers the vertically-oriented ONE WAY sign.

The vertical ONE WAY signs may be on their way out.  I traveled on US 10 west of Waupaca last week and all of the vertical ONE WAY signs were replaced with horizontal ONE WAY signs.

It depends on the situation. For two-stage crossings, roundabout central islands, and j-turns (and probably a couple others I am forgetting at the moment), WisDOT specs the horizontal ONE WAY in their standard details (basically anytime the ONE WAY is mounted above another, typically a STOP or YIELD sign). Anytime the ONE WAY is by itself or below another sign, they go with the vertical one. Lately, the city of Madison doesn't appear to have any rhyme or reason to their use, as I've seen new and retrofitted/replacement installations featuring both styles. It appears in the Madison case, they're installing more of the horizontal ONE WAYs for the time being.

[peterj920]

Arguably, the larger arrows are more visible--more "target value". Similar to why WisDOT prefers the vertically-oriented ONE WAY sign.

The vertical ONE WAY signs may be on their way out.  I traveled on US 10 west of Waupaca last week and all of the vertical ONE WAY signs were replaced with horizontal ONE WAY signs.

It depends on the situation. For two-stage crossings, roundabout central islands, and j-turns (and probably a couple others I am forgetting at the moment), WisDOT specs the horizontal ONE WAY in their standard details (basically anytime the ONE WAY is mounted above another, typically a STOP or YIELD sign). Anytime the ONE WAY is by itself or below another sign, they go with the vertical one. Lately, the city of Madison doesn't appear to have any rhyme or reason to their use, as I've seen new and retrofitted/replacement installations featuring both styles. It appears in the Madison case, they're installing more of the horizontal ONE WAYs for the time being.

Last year when new ONE WAY signs were being installed on WIS 29, they were installing a combination like what you were stating.  But on the new installations on US 10, even the standalone ONE WAY signs were horizontal and the vertical ONE WAY signs were removed.  The stretch of US 10 between Amherst and Waupaca could also possibly be a test site since in addition to all of the horizonal ONE WAY signs, all of the bridges have the anti-skid treatment applied to the decks and the centerline paint was replaced with embedded tape.  Interesting how the stretch east of Waupaca upgraded to 4 lanes first and those signs were older than the ones west of Waupaca, yet the newer signs west of Waupaca were replaced and the signs east of Waupaca were left alone. 

[DaBigE]

Last year when new ONE WAY signs were being installed on WIS 29, they were installing a combination like what you were stating.  But on the new installations on US 10, even the standalone ONE WAY signs were horizontal and the vertical ONE WAY signs were removed.  The stretch of US 10 between Amherst and Waupaca could also possibly be a test site since in addition to all of the horizonal ONE WAY signs

Anything's possible, including a plan error that slipped by the DOT reviewers or a contractor trying to cut corners and only order one type of sign. The stand-alone mountings do seem odd for a WisDOT project, though.

Not to get too far off-topic, but the one sign that always gets harped on in training sessions is the R6-3/a DIVIDED HIGHWAY signs and how WisDOT's design is supposed to be used (the difference being WisDOT specs the words to be 4" D Series vs. FHWA's 3" E Series). In general, it seems as if WisDOT is abandoning many of their own special standard specs for signing, marking, and signaling and adopting MUTCD verbatim. WisDOT used to use many of their own sign codes, but instead have scrapped those, and synced them up with MUTCD codes. That said, I don't see the marker assembly arrows changing anytime soon...but I have been surprised before. I will say that the changes have made it much easier for us designers.

[SSOWorld]

Arguably, the larger arrows are more visible--more "target value". Similar to why WisDOT prefers the vertically-oriented ONE WAY sign.

The vertical ONE WAY signs may be on their way out.  I traveled on US 10 west of Waupaca last week and all of the vertical ONE WAY signs were replaced with horizontal ONE WAY signs.

It depends on the situation. For two-stage crossings, roundabout central islands, and j-turnsMichigan Lefts (and probably a couple others I am forgetting at the moment), WisDOT specs the horizontal ONE WAY in their standard details (basically anytime the ONE WAY is mounted above another, typically a STOP or YIELD sign). Anytime the ONE WAY is by itself or below another sign, they go with the vertical one. Lately, the city of Madison doesn't appear to have any rhyme or reason to their use, as I've seen new and retrofitted/replacement installations featuring both styles. It appears in the Madison case, they're installing more of the horizontal ONE WAYs for the time being.

FTFY!

J-turn, J-Sign, what the f- does the WisDOT have a fascination with the letter "J" for??? lol

back on topic: (oh wait... )

No need to replace a sign until necessary.

Local munis might still use the WisDOT standard or override it as well, keep that in mind.

[tribar]

Anyone have a picture of one of these?

[DaBigE]

It depends on the situation. For two-stage crossings, roundabout central islands, and j-turnsMichigan Lefts (and probably a couple others I am forgetting at the moment), WisDOT specs the horizontal ONE WAY in their standard details (basically anytime the ONE WAY is mounted above another, typically a STOP or YIELD sign). Anytime the ONE WAY is by itself or below another sign, they go with the vertical one. Lately, the city of Madison doesn't appear to have any rhyme or reason to their use, as I've seen new and retrofitted/replacement installations featuring both styles. It appears in the Madison case, they're installing more of the horizontal ONE WAYs for the time being.

FTFY!

J-turn, J-Sign, what the f- does the WisDOT have a fascination with the letter "J" for??? lol

back on topic: (oh wait... )

Don't shoot the messenger...take it up with WisDOT about what they call their intersections: J Turn Marking SDD, J Turn Signing

Local munis might still use the WisDOT standard or override it as well, keep that in mind.

I somewhat already eluded to that fact in my first post.

[DaBigE]

Anyone have a picture of one of these?

If you're talking about the arrow...look at SSOWorld's avatar. Or here

[SSOWorld]

[removed to declutter...]

Don't shoot the messenger...take it up with WisDOT about what they call their intersections: J Turn Marking SDD, J Turn Signing

I somewhat already eluded to that fact in my first post.

They use a mixture.

I would imagine (no facts to back it up right now though) that they would want to emphasize the "one way" at the forced right-turn.  Same can be said for roundabouts.

NOTE: Michigan Left is just a purgatory term here - but inappropriately used anyway since at a true M-Left, cross traffic can go straight.  At these, cross and left-turning traffic must use the u-turn.  The more appropriate "technical term" is "Restricted Crossing U-Turn" (see DaBigE's links)

[Roadguy]

It depends on the situation. For two-stage crossings, roundabout central islands, and j-turnsMichigan Lefts (and probably a couple others I am forgetting at the moment), WisDOT specs the horizontal ONE WAY in their standard details (basically anytime the ONE WAY is mounted above another, typically a STOP or YIELD sign). Anytime the ONE WAY is by itself or below another sign, they go with the vertical one. Lately, the city of Madison doesn't appear to have any rhyme or reason to their use, as I've seen new and retrofitted/replacement installations featuring both styles. It appears in the Madison case, they're installing more of the horizontal ONE WAYs for the time being.

FTFY!

J-turn, J-Sign, what the f- does the WisDOT have a fascination with the letter "J" for??? lol

back on topic: (oh wait... )

Don't shoot the messenger...take it up with WisDOT about what they call their intersections: J Turn Marking SDD, J Turn Signing

I somewhat already eluded to that fact in my first post.

I have two comments on the "J-Turns" (or whatever you want to call them... I could care less).  Obviously we are getting off the topic of this original thread but this is good discussion.

1.) I find the "bulb outs" on the far side of the U-turn and the offset U-turn lane to be very poor design. 
J Turn Marking SDD
See the link to the pav't marking SDD (See the 3rd page) and the layout on the top left side.  The bulb out is bad because drivers sit in it (This had been a continuous issue at WIS 29 and CTH VV in Green Bay).  The offset U-turn lane is bad because the angle almost directs drivers into oncoming traffic (Geometrically, the angle should be like the layout on the top right in the same pav't marking SDD sheet, naturally directing drivers to make a U-turn versus a right turn into oncoming traffic).

2.) MnDOT knows how to sign and light these things, the intersection at US 52 and County Road 66 in Dakota County is almost a perfect example.  MnDOT signs the J-turns as a U-turn (which is what they are so they should be signed as such).
US52 and CR66 Streetview

[peterj920]

At least they're giving people the opportunity to cross and make a U turn.  Along the Fond Du Lac Bypass and in Sturgeon Bay the intersections are closed off without being able to turn around or cross at all.  A gas station along the Fond Du Lac Bypass most likely closed because if a person went to it, it would have been tough to get back on since there was a right turn only going north.