Hwy 17 in New Jersey....What is it?

[jwolfer]

Yes, US 1 and US 27 in those locations saddens me.  Also US 27 had the 65 mph speed limit from I-4 to just south of Clermont which is now 45 in many places thanks to Lake County saying yes to land raping!

US 1, will probably go back to 55 soon.  I have not been on it since 2008, so I imagine some new signals have been added to it between St. Augustine and Bayard.  I remember in 1983 when no signals existed between I-95 near the current Avenues Mall and SR 16 in St. Augustine.  The SR 115 intersection was without a signal which now you could not imagine it being without one. Plus the interchange with I-95 was a rural one with only one gas station at it.

Believe me we in Florida are getting tired of this sprawl taking over farm lands.  Ask flaroads and he is disgusted with Pasco County letting SR 54 transform into a suburban arterial from a road that not too long ago was two lanes and in a farm land environment.  We do get mad when extra traffic is now caused by rapid development places more cars on the road.  Roads like OBT that were free flowing in the 90's now takes almost a half hour to go what used to be ten minutes in the Florida Mall area.  Heck in Southchase we have a signal that I call Luis, named after a flaky nutcase I unfortunately know who worships at my church who lives in the apartment complex nearby that is in part to why the signal was installed created a change in flow on OBT drastically after the signal was turned on permanently.  Before the light was there it was so good to travel OBT between 417 and Wetherbee Road.  Now this one light backs up traffic into long queues especially in the right lane SB making my turn into nearby Deerfield Blvd a chore that it never was over 2 years ago.

I have talked to people who are up in Orlando.. It was all Orange groves in Maitland..  Like Ocean County in NJ.. Went from 50k population to 500k in 50 years ... And that is with much of the county in the Pinelands Preserve

[roadman65]

It was Orange Groves even in the Holden Heights section of Orange County as well.  Even behind the red light district businesses on OBT there was groves especially behind those between Oakridge Road and Holden Avenues.

Then Osceola County west of Dismal World, there were groves where Orange Lake Resort Community is, and all along CR 545 from US 192 to CR 532.  Now that part is being developed for timeshares and golf courses, and even CR 532 from CR 545 to I-4 was a rural two lane road with 55 mph, is now a four lane arterial with a 45 mph (Osceola County is backwards as when the widen a roadway instead of raising the speed limit by 5 mph, they actually lower it 10 mph of what it was) and all Orange Groves are now residential or part of a resort.

[jwolfer]

It was Orange Groves even in the Holden Heights section of Orange County as well.  Even behind the red light district businesses on OBT there was groves especially behind those between Oakridge Road and Holden Avenues.

Then Osceola County west of Dismal World, there were groves where Orange Lake Resort Community is, and all along CR 545 from US 192 to CR 532.  Now that part is being developed for timeshares and golf courses, and even CR 532 from CR 545 to I-4 was a rural two lane road with 55 mph, is now a four lane arterial with a 45 mph (Osceola County is backwards as when the widen a roadway instead of raising the speed limit by 5 mph, they actually lower it 10 mph of what it was) and all Orange Groves are now residential or part of a resort.

I was just out there in September. My brother and his family stayed in Reunion ( what f----in' stupid place name along with Celebration) you can see CR 545 is a rural 2 Lane road that has opulent golf course resorts all around.

[roadman65]

Yes that Old Lake Wilson Road area.  Its a shame.  I remember back in 1990 when there were absolutely no stop lights west of I-4 on US 192.  Formosa Gardens was not there, also Westgate was not there (my old boss David Siegal who if that "Name a street after someone you do not like" thread years ago would have loved to contribute his name for Turkey Lake Road in Orlando where his "Westgate Lakes" resort is now), then you have the in between tourist shops and motels which ruined that part of the area as well.

As far as Celebration goes please watch what you say about that.  I have friends who live there and its a nice community of people.   I belong to the Knights of Columbus there and they do wonders.  And for those of you smart asses who want to say that our nature of being secretive makes us evil and violent, you are so wrong.  Before someone comes in to point out the rumors about what they hear, its not true.  Only our ceremonials are secret, but not what we do.  We take a pledge of secrecy as much as we pledge not to bring in politics to our order as well, as it was founded as a group by Michael J. McGivney in the 1800's to help families out in hard times, as well as help their neighbors out and we do that more than well in Celebration!  We are involved in trying to get homeless people settled as Osceola County has lately been serving eviction notices to motels on US 192 for allowing low income families for living there which is an absolute shame!  True you will not see a panhandler on the streets of Celebration and it may seem like a snobbish community, but maybe that may be why!  Enough said there as I may have turned this thread now into the great debate especially if one user from Tulsa reads this!

Anyway, I do not want to be harsh, but just to point out in defense to the statement made about Celebration being pollution to the rural Florida.  Yes they too took away land from us, as it was once part of Disney, but just to point out that nice people do live there and some I know have fundraisers that benefit our local charities that I personally love to take part in.
"

[jwolfer]

Yes that Old Lake Wilson Road area.  Its a shame.  I remember back in 1990 when there were absolutely no stop lights west of I-4 on US 192.  Formosa Gardens was not there, also Westgate was not there (my old boss David Siegal who if that "Name a street after someone you do not like" thread years ago would have loved to contribute his name for Turkey Lake Road in Orlando where his "Westgate Lakes" resort is now), then you have the in between tourist shops and motels which ruined that part of the area as well.

As far as Celebration goes please watch what you say about that.  I have friends who live there and its a nice community of people.   I belong to the Knights of Columbus there and they do wonders.  And for those of you smart asses who want to say that our nature of being secretive makes us evil and violent, you are so wrong.  Before someone comes in to point out the rumors about what they hear, its not true.  Only our ceremonials are secret, but not what we do.  We take a pledge of secrecy as much as we pledge not to bring in politics to our order as well, as it was founded as a group by Michael J. McGivney in the 1800's to help families out in hard times, as well as help their neighbors out and we do that more than well in Celebration!  We are involved in trying to get homeless people settled as Osceola County has lately been serving eviction notices to motels on US 192 for allowing low income families for living there which is an absolute shame!  True you will not see a panhandler on the streets of Celebration and it may seem like a snobbish community, but maybe that may be why!  Enough said there as I may have turned this thread now into the great debate especially if one user from Tulsa reads this!

Anyway, I do not want to be harsh, but just to point out in defense to the statement made about Celebration being pollution to the rural Florida.  Yes they too took away land from us, as it was once part of Disney, but just to point out that nice people do live there and some I know have fundraisers that benefit our local charities that I personally love to take part in.
"

I just think it's a stupid name.. I don't think I said anything disparaging about Celebration. Did I miss another response

[NJ]

Route 17 is called a "highway" in New Jersey... I live minutes away from it. Most of Route 17 and Route 4 is 3 lanes/direction without traffic signals, and stores on the side highways are common throughout. I love Route 17 and Route 4 - shopping mecca of the region!

I am from Texas, and went through Mahwah, NJ last week. What do you call Hwy 17, a freeway? Parkway? Blvd?

Never seen a roadway with 55 mph, concrete barrier down the middle requiring you to go 4 miles out of your way to U-turn, yet have businesses have direct access to it (suicidal trying to pull out of a gas station with traffic barreling down on you), no access roads, and no traffic lights.

Its frustrating, yet genius at the same time, I see how it such a design cuts down on cross traffic bottlenecks.

[Pete from Boston]

Route 17 is called a "highway" in New Jersey...

Which is a little ironic, because no one says "Highway 17."

I love Route 17 and Route 4 - shopping mecca of the region!

Paramus, where the roads intersect, has historically vied for the top spot for zip codes with the most retail sales in the country.

[NJ]

Route 17 is called a "highway" in New Jersey...

Which is a little ironic, because no one says "Highway 17."

I love Route 17 and Route 4 - shopping mecca of the region!

Paramus, where the roads intersect, has historically vied for the top spot for zip codes with the most retail sales in the country.

In New Jersey we always say "Route XX", NJ Turnpike & Garden State Parkway. Never heard anyone calling any highway for "highway xx". I know it's common in some states.

Paramus is number one zip code in the nation in annual retail sale despite the blue laws (Sunday closings).

[Alps]

Highway = generic term for any of the below.

Freeway = limited access (only at designated cross streets) and controlled access (no median crossings).
Arterial = unlimited access (driveways) and uncontrolled access (median crossings).
Expressway = limited access, but uncontrolled access.

There is a void for highways with unlimited access but controlled access, which encompasses 17 and 4 (west end of NJ 3, US 1 north of Boston, several others). So we invented the term "Jersey freeways".

[Pete from Boston]

Highway = generic term for any of the below.

Freeway = limited access (only at designated cross streets) and controlled access (no median crossings).
Arterial = unlimited access (driveways) and uncontrolled access (median crossings).
Expressway = limited access, but uncontrolled access.

There is a void for highways with unlimited access but controlled access, which encompasses 17 and 4 (west end of NJ 3, US 1 north of Boston, several others). So we invented the term "Jersey freeways".

You're right, but I think his point was that all anyone in the area would call it is a "highway. "

[jp the roadgeek]

To anyone north and east of a line that follows the Ohio and Potomac rivers, a highway refers to a divided road with limited access, no traffic signals, and no driveways or shopping centers, unless they are located on a guardrail/ Jersey barrier separated service road alongside.  The roads with driveways that many refer to "HWY XX" in the rest of the country are called "Route XX"  And Garden State Plaza, NJ's largest shopping mall, occupies the southwest corner of the NJ 4/ NJ 17 junction.

[dgolub]

To anyone north and east of a line that follows the Ohio and Potomac rivers, a highway refers to a divided road with limited access, no traffic signals, and no driveways or shopping centers, unless they are located on a guardrail/ Jersey barrier separated service road alongside.  The roads with driveways that many refer to "HWY XX" in the rest of the country are called "Route XX"  And Garden State Plaza, NJ's largest shopping mall, occupies the southwest corner of the NJ 4/ NJ 17 junction.

Right, in this part of the country, the term "freeway" doesn't get used much, except in the names of certain highways in New Jersey that are known almost exclusive by their route numbers.  We use "highway" colloquially the way that FHWA uses freeway.  Highways are divided into two types: expressways, which are open to all vehicles, and parkways, which are not open to trucks (at least in most places).  They generally have names that indicate which or the two types they are (e.g. Long Island Expressway, Northern Parkway, Cross Bronx Expressway, Taconic Parkway) or are known solely or primarily by their route numbers.  Roads that are called highways are generally not and have names that date back to before there was such a thing.  For example, Sunrise Highway (NY 27) and Montauk Highway (NY 27A/CR 85/CR 80/NY 27) on Long Island have traffic lights and driveways, and the latter is a two-lane undivided road for most of its length.

[Pete from Boston]

Roads that are called highways are generally not and have names that date back to before there was such a thing.

As an example of this, "King's Highway" pops up on two-lane roads all over the place dating to kingly times.  The one in southeastern Rockland County is paralleled by Western Highway, which I believe is newer but is also a two-lane street with primarily local traffic.

[bzakharin]

I think the Expressway/Parkway thing is New York state specific. NJ has one Expressway (the Atlantic City Expressway) and one Parkway (Garden State Parkway). Actually there's also the Palisades Parkway and Rahway River Parkway (the latter is primarily the name of a park which lies between the Rahway River and the GSP, but I think the main road through the park goes by that name as well), but the first is partially with New York and nobody has heard of the second. The GSP allows trucks on part of its length. So you have a situation where you have The Turnpike, The Parkway, and less often The Expressway and The Freeway (NJ 42/I-76).

But everything is "the highway" or "a highway" from a divided road all the way to a freeway, with no specific widespread words to tell them apart. And anything with a number that isn't one of the above named highways (also the Black and White Horse Pikes) is "Route X" except when it's on a local street that has a name.

[Pete from Boston]

Even in Bergen, "the parkway" refers to the Garden State Parkway.  The Palisades Parkway is shortened most often to "the Palisades."

Also, if you want to get technical about it, part of Route 80 is named "Bergen-Passaic Expressway," a name that lives on primarily in musty old Hagstrom maps.

[Zeffy]

Right, in this part of the country, the term "freeway" doesn't get used much, except in the names of certain highways in New Jersey that are known almost exclusive by their route numbers.  We use "highway" colloquially the way that FHWA uses freeway.  Highways are divided into two types: expressways, which are open to all vehicles, and parkways, which are not open to trucks (at least in most places).  They generally have names that indicate which or the two types they are (e.g. Long Island Expressway, Northern Parkway, Cross Bronx Expressway, Taconic Parkway) or are known solely or primarily by their route numbers.  Roads that are called highways are generally not and have names that date back to before there was such a thing.  For example, Sunrise Highway (NY 27) and Montauk Highway (NY 27A/CR 85/CR 80/NY 27) on Long Island have traffic lights and driveways, and the latter is a two-lane undivided road for most of its length.

I can only think of two highways with "freeway" in their name in New Jersey:
*Trenton Freeway (US 1)
*North/South Freeway (NJ 42)

[vdeane]

We use "highway" colloquially the way that FHWA uses freeway.

When I was taking driver's ed in the Rochester area, "highway" meant rural two lane roads and high speed arterials.

[Alps]

Right, in this part of the country, the term "freeway" doesn't get used much, except in the names of certain highways in New Jersey that are known almost exclusive by their route numbers.  We use "highway" colloquially the way that FHWA uses freeway.  Highways are divided into two types: expressways, which are open to all vehicles, and parkways, which are not open to trucks (at least in most places).  They generally have names that indicate which or the two types they are (e.g. Long Island Expressway, Northern Parkway, Cross Bronx Expressway, Taconic Parkway) or are known solely or primarily by their route numbers.  Roads that are called highways are generally not and have names that date back to before there was such a thing.  For example, Sunrise Highway (NY 27) and Montauk Highway (NY 27A/CR 85/CR 80/NY 27) on Long Island have traffic lights and driveways, and the latter is a two-lane undivided road for most of its length.

I can only think of two highways with "freeway" in their name in New Jersey:
*Trenton Freeway (US 1)
*North/South Freeway (NJ 42)

NJ 18 was planned as the Route 35 freeway east of the GS Parkway. Route 33 is a "freeway." Planned NJ 14 would have been 14-F for freeway. There exist other examples, but it's clear that NJ was big on the word "freeway" by the 1970s.

[dgolub]

I can only think of two highways with "freeway" in their name in New Jersey:
*Trenton Freeway (US 1)
*North/South Freeway (NJ 42)

Those are the only ones that show the name on the SLD, but there are others:
* Essex Freeway (I-280)
* Middlesex Freeway (I-287)
* Union Freeway (I-278)
* Camden Freeway (I-295)
* Monmouth Freeway (NJ 18)
* Somerset Freeway (I-95) (unbuilt)

[dgolub]

Also, if you want to get technical about it, part of Route 80 is named "Bergen-Passaic Expressway," a name that lives on primarily in musty old Hagstrom maps.

Also, I-78 is the Phillipsburg-Newark Expressway and I-195 is the Central Jersey Expressway, but no one uses those names.

[roadman65]

Has anyone yet stopped calling I-78 east of NJ 24 as "Route 24?"  I know its been almost 30 years since the controversial 5 mile segment through Watchung Reservation was opened to traffic leaving I-78 east of NJ 24 not signed as such, but back in the early 90's some people I knew were still calling I-78 from 48 to 58 as "Route 24" like they did before the Watchung Reservation part got completed.

I used to argue with non road geeks on the CB radio about it as many would still refer to it as "Route 24" even though it never was.  The eastbound ramps always used I-78 shields on them and the westbound, well, used "TO NJ 24 WEST" not to lead westbound I-78 motorists going to PA onto NJ 24 going into Chatam (the NJ 24 freeway was finished years later in 92) way off their trek. Being I-78 and US 22 never had direct arterials between them, there was no way to double back to US 22. So at the Newark Airport Tangle, signs were posted for I-78 west to use US 22 for through motorists.  No westbound ramps were signed at all for I-78 west east of the Reservation.

[Alps]

I can only think of two highways with "freeway" in their name in New Jersey:
*Trenton Freeway (US 1)
*North/South Freeway (NJ 42)

Those are the only ones that show the name on the SLD, but there are others:
* Essex Freeway (I-280)
* Middlesex Freeway (I-287)
* Union Freeway (I-278)
* Camden Freeway (I-295)
* Monmouth Freeway (NJ 18)
* Somerset Freeway (I-95) (unbuilt)

TIL each county should have its own freeway. (unbuilt NJ 31: Hunterdon Freeway? why not?)