I-95 through the Meadowlands

[roadman65]

New Haven might work better if control cities are used.  However, I was thinking about the way New Jerseyans think, or at least did when I lived there many decades ago.  The G. Washington Br. always was there and we always used that for many years, however the MUTCD has a point with using control cities and not states and crossings.  Its better for the long distance travelers.

In fact I got a taste of it last week when heading east on I-70 through St. Louis.  MoDOT uses "Illinois" for the control city for I-70 now where it splits from its old alignment at the new Stan Musial Bridge.  For a long distance traveler it would be better to use "Indianapolis" for I-70 east then the whole entire state of Illinois.  For me it seemed so weird to see that after seeing Columbia and St. Louis for several miles, and now to jump to an entire state when the interstate has several hundred miles to go before reaching the park and ride outside of Baltimore.

[jeffandnicole]

Sometimes, I would argue exceptions are a necessary evil.  When you're dealing with New York City, which is the highest populated city in the US, the city more people commute to compared to any other city in the US, and the most visited city in the US, for the majority of travelers in the NYC area, NYC is THE long distance city they want. It wouldn't make much sense to sign "New Haven" until one has crossed into NYC, unless 2 destinations were signed (i.e.: New York City/New Haven).

[Duke87]

Sometimes, I would argue exceptions are a necessary evil.  When you're dealing with New York City, which is the highest populated city in the US, the city more people commute to compared to any other city in the US, and the most visited city in the US, for the majority of travelers in the NYC area, NYC is THE long distance city they want. It wouldn't make much sense to sign "New Haven" until one has crossed into NYC, unless 2 destinations were signed (i.e.: New York City/New Haven).

I suggest this largely because when a city's name is used it usually means the route is a sensible way to that city's central business district. Anyone heading north on I-95 looking to get to New York City's central business district is going to have exited at 16E if not sooner. By continuing towards the GWB you have already bypassed midtown and are likely bound for an outlying area if not outright passing through.

Of course, while this applies to the western spur of the Turnpike (and the eastern spur beyond 16E), once I-80 enters the fray you get the awkward situation where while traffic that came from the Turnpike is unlikely to be headed to midtown, a good chunk of the traffic from 80 is. So yeah, signing New Haven (at least on its own) along that section would be weird.

This is why the current setup of using the names of the bridges and tunnels exists and is a good practice. It's clear and well understood. Forcing place names to be used instead would create situations where the signage is less clear and understandable. So it shouldn't be done even if the MUTCD would really prefer it.

[Pete from Boston]

Are there a lot of people confused by "George Washington Bridge"?

[roadman65]

A better solution would be to use supplemental signs.  For approaching I-78 from the south, a sign for Holland Tunnel would work well stating to use I-78 East to Exit 14C.   Then the EB Control point would be New York DOWNTOWN. 

At the split of the two spurs a supplemental overhead for both the Lincoln Tunnel and GWB would span on a brown gantry where the exit numbers could change depending on the spurs as if the east spur is closed it turns to Exit 16W.  Then the pull through would be the  Bronx or New Haven for the western spur and NY MIDTOWN for the east spur and the Exit 16E signage.

What will be a problem is I-80 as its control city is New York or recently New York City as NJDOT is on the kick of signing New York as New York City since the early 90's.  Even at the US 46 exit in Wayne where its signed for the Lincoln Tunnel and New York (City) is signed on the pull through there, so most traffic for all five boroughs will stay on 80 all the way to the GWB.  So after I-80 comes in you have to use New York (City) along with New Haven there to keep the consistency going for those being controlled by the signs on I-80.

[jwolfer]

A better solution would be to use supplemental signs.  For approaching I-78 from the south, a sign for Holland Tunnel would work well stating to use I-78 East to Exit 14C.   Then the EB Control point would be New York DOWNTOWN. 

At the split of the two spurs a supplemental overhead for both the Lincoln Tunnel and GWB would span on a brown gantry where the exit numbers could change depending on the spurs as if the east spur is closed it turns to Exit 16W.  Then the pull through would be the  Bronx or New Haven for the western spur and NY MIDTOWN for the east spur and the Exit 16E signage.

What will be a problem is I-80 as its control city is New York or recently New York City as NJDOT is on the kick of signing New York as New York City since the early 90's.  Even at the US 46 exit in Wayne where its signed for the Lincoln Tunnel and New York (City) is signed on the pull through there, so most traffic for all five boroughs will stay on 80 all the way to the GWB.  So after I-80 comes in you have to use New York (City) along with New Haven there to keep the consistency going for those being controlled by the signs on I-80.

I always thought there should be supplemental signage with the crossing. New York City
VIA HOLLAND TUNNEL, GWB

Although officially the city of New York someone headed for Brooklyn or Staten Island isn't thinking they are going to the city.  So that being said Outerbridge Crossing should be signed for Staten Island not NYC.

As an aside I used to think it was called the Outerbridge Crossing because it was the outer most bridge in reference to Manhattan. Growing up one of the priests at church was Father Outerbridge.. It was named for his ancestor..

[odditude]

I always thought there should be supplemental signage with the crossing. New York City
VIA HOLLAND TUNNEL, GWB

the travel time signs on the Turnpike and Parkway have these listings, similar to below...

NYC VIA
-------
GWB XX min
LINCOLN XX min
HOLLAND XX min

[ixnay]

As an aside I used to think it was called the Outerbridge Crossing because it was the outer most bridge in reference to Manhattan. Growing up one of the priests at church was Father Outerbridge.. It was named for his ancestor..

I assume that ancestor was Eugenius H. Outerbridge, the first chairman of what was then the Port of New York Authority.

ixnay

[jwolfer]

That would make sense.. They probably have a common ancestor

[Duke87]

I always thought there should be supplemental signage with the crossing. New York City
VIA HOLLAND TUNNEL, GWB

the travel time signs on the Turnpike and Parkway have these listings, similar to below...

NYC VIA
-------
GWB XX min
LINCOLN XX min
HOLLAND XX min

Those are ridiculous, though, since the GWB time is always longer than the others - which might give an unfamiliar motorist the mistaken impression that the Lincoln Tunnel is less congested and a better route. In actuality, of course, the GWB takes longer to get to at free flow speed simply because it is further north, and it is generally not a good idea to use one of the tunnels as an alternate route if one's destination is beyond the GWB.

[jeffandnicole]

At the same time, for those familiar with the area, those times are good to know in general.

[bzakharin]

Sometimes, I would argue exceptions are a necessary evil.  When you're dealing with New York City, which is the highest populated city in the US, the city more people commute to compared to any other city in the US, and the most visited city in the US, for the majority of travelers in the NYC area, NYC is THE long distance city they want. It wouldn't make much sense to sign "New Haven" until one has crossed into NYC, unless 2 destinations were signed (i.e.: New York City/New Haven).

I suggest this largely because when a city's name is used it usually means the route is a sensible way to that city's central business district. Anyone heading north on I-95 looking to get to New York City's central business district is going to have exited at 16E if not sooner. By continuing towards the GWB you have already bypassed midtown and are likely bound for an outlying area if not outright passing through.

Of course, while this applies to the western spur of the Turnpike (and the eastern spur beyond 16E), once I-80 enters the fray you get the awkward situation where while traffic that came from the Turnpike is unlikely to be headed to midtown, a good chunk of the traffic from 80 is. So yeah, signing New Haven (at least on its own) along that section would be weird.

This is why the current setup of using the names of the bridges and tunnels exists and is a good practice. It's clear and well understood. Forcing place names to be used instead would create situations where the signage is less clear and understandable. So it shouldn't be done even if the MUTCD would really prefer it.

What is interesting is that distances to New York along I-95 north of Baltimore appear to be the distances via the NJ Turnpike and the GWB, if I'm not mistaken, so it's not just I-80

[Pete from Boston]

I always thought there should be supplemental signage with the crossing. New York City
VIA HOLLAND TUNNEL, GWB

the travel time signs on the Turnpike and Parkway have these listings, similar to below...

NYC VIA
-------
GWB XX min
LINCOLN XX min
HOLLAND XX min

Those are ridiculous, though, since the GWB time is always longer than the others - which might give an unfamiliar motorist the mistaken impression that the Lincoln Tunnel is less congested and a better route. In actuality, of course, the GWB takes longer to get to at free flow speed simply because it is further north, and it is generally not a good idea to use one of the tunnels as an alternate route if one's destination is beyond the GWB.

They aren't useless because while times to those crossings alone are very useful, they only tell half the story.  The time to the crossing might be only half the time to the other side of the crossing, or it might be two minutes short of it.

If you've made it to North Jersey and don't know that "NYC" is not one singular point, signs are not your biggest problem.

[hubcity]

For years, Rand McNally would have you believe that I-80 and I-95 were multiplexed from Teaneck to the George Washington Bridge.

Y'know, I always wondered about that...

[roadman65]

How did this topic get down to 2 states away?

[NJ]

It should say 'New York City' like state highways or include both the tunnel/bridge & NYC on the sign together.

All state highways always include control cities.

The only gripe I have is that NJTA does not use control cities but control crossings, which still are good considering that people know where the Lincoln Tunnel and the GWB is, but I prefer Midtown NY for Exit 16E and Uptown NY and Bronx for Exits 18E & W.

"Midtown" (without "NY") would work, but "Uptown" is too broad. There's no one location that's "uptown"–and if there is, it may well be closer to the Lincoln Tunnel than the GWB; I'm thinking Upper West Side and Upper East Side. Also, "uptown" and "upstate" could be confused with one another. "Washington Heights" would be much better understood locally, or "Inwood" if you need something shorter, and of course "Bronx" works just fine too.

[NJ]

Are there a lot of people confused by "George Washington Bridge"?

Not everybody knows that the bridge leads to NYC, and sometimes Lincoln Tunnel & Holland Tunnel is also used. Control city is easier and better, or both. G S Parkway sometimes put 'G W Bridge' or 'Geo W Bridge'.

[Pete from Boston]

Are there a lot of people confused by "George Washington Bridge"?

Not everybody knows that the bridge leads to NYC, and sometimes Lincoln Tunnel & Holland Tunnel is also used. Control city is easier and better, or both. G S Parkway sometimes put 'G W Bridge' or 'Geo W Bridge'.

If you knew nothing about the area and saw three exits, one that said "Holland Tunnel, New York City," one labeled "Lincoln Tunnel, New York City," and one "George Washington Bridge, New York City," all leading to places miles from the others, how would you know which to take?

[bzakharin]

Are there a lot of people confused by "George Washington Bridge"?

Not everybody knows that the bridge leads to NYC, and sometimes Lincoln Tunnel & Holland Tunnel is also used. Control city is easier and better, or both. G S Parkway sometimes put 'G W Bridge' or 'Geo W Bridge'.

If you knew nothing about the area and saw three exits, one that said "Holland Tunnel, New York City," one labeled "Lincoln Tunnel, New York City," and one "George Washington Bridge, New York City," all leading to places miles from the others, how would you know which to take?

If I were headed for somewhere specific in New York City, I would probably know which crossing (or exit number) I was looking for. If I were *not* headed for New York City, I suppose they would help me to not accidentally end up there, though that's a pretty unlikely scenario. If I had to pass through NYC on my way to somewhere else (most likely on I-95), no this wouldn't help. What would help would be to sign something beyond NYC as a secondary destination, like "New Haven" or even "Connecticut" or "New England".

[Pete from Boston]

I would have said, "look at some kind of map," which obviates the need for any change from what exists now.

My guess is that more GW traffic coming up the Turnpike is headed for the Bronx, Queens, Long Island, or New England than anywhere in Manhattan. 

That's too much info for signs in New Jersey, and "New York City" is confusing in its broadness (particularly given that "The City" to many or most refers to Manhattan specifically).  "George Washington Bridge" is Very well known as the route to these places.  "95" also sends the "it's this way" message.

It may be my New Jersey talking, but it's not the Turnpike's responsibility to teach you geography.  As an adult you are supposed to come in to this with at least a little preparation.

[bzakharin]

I would look at a map too, but I'm trying to get into the mindset of someone who wouldn't. Besides, why are there BGSs at all then? Let's just stick to route and exit numbers, perfect, clean, cheap. Obviously there must be some value in having destinations and control cities, so it makes sense to talk about which ones to use.

[cl94]

Except for trucks, most LI traffic coming from the Turnpike would likely use Outerbridge or Goethals unless there's something messing them up that's worse than typical GW or Cross Bronx traffic. Cuts the corner and bypasses a toll bridge. Ditto for Queens (for the same reason). The majority of traffic going from the Turnpike to the GW is likely through traffic to Westchester and beyond.

I'd sign as follows:

Outerbridge/Goethals: Staten Island, Long Island
Holland: Lower Manhattan
Lincoln: Midtown, Queens
GW: The Bronx, New Haven

Bridge names should still be controls where practical (GW definitely), but you have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

[Pete from Boston]

I would look at a map too, but I'm trying to get into the mindset of someone who wouldn't. Besides, why are there BGSs at all then? Let's just stick to route and exit numbers, perfect, clean, cheap. Obviously there must be some value in having destinations and control cities, so it makes sense to talk about which ones to use.

Yes, but one extreme of the conversation seems to frequently be "What happens if the driver is almost totally ignorant?"  which is not a large enough segment on which to base signage.  Signs ought not be counted on to get every person to every destination, just the largest possible segment in the right general direction with the least amount of words. 

[NJ]

Same thing when you see Lincoln Tunnel, G W Bridge and Holland tunnel.. Which one to take?

Are there a lot of people confused by "George Washington Bridge"?

Not everybody knows that the bridge leads to NYC, and sometimes Lincoln Tunnel & Holland Tunnel is also used. Control city is easier and better, or both. G S Parkway sometimes put 'G W Bridge' or 'Geo W Bridge'.

If you knew nothing about the area and saw three exits, one that said "Holland Tunnel, New York City," one labeled "Lincoln Tunnel, New York City," and one "George Washington Bridge, New York City," all leading to places miles from the others, how would you know which to take?

[The Nature Boy]

I've driven through NYC many times via the GW Bridge and never thought it difficult to navigate. I-95 is a good enough cue that "you take this route if you're going to New England." Maybe I overestimate the intelligence of people.

In any event, I agree that signing "New Haven" would be a good practice for the GW, if you must sign a city.