I-95 through the Meadowlands

[noelbotevera]

My suggestions for I-80's control cities would be New York City EB and Cleveland, O (or OH) WB.
For I-95's cities, Philadelphia and Baltimore SB (Wilmington doesn't get mentioned they all scrublords (sarcasm)), and New York and New Haven NB.

[hbelkins]

There's nothing of consequence along I-80 in Pennsylvania to warrant control city status, unless you want to do what other states do and sign interstate junctions. This is probably one of those situations where a control state would work best, especially westbound on I-80 in New Jersey.

[bzakharin]

There's nothing of consequence along I-80 in Pennsylvania to warrant control city status, unless you want to do what other states do and sign interstate junctions. This is probably one of those situations where a control state would work best, especially westbound on I-80 in New Jersey.

It depends where. Certainly not from the GWB, since you can access southern of PA by taking the Turnpike. If you are on 287 heading South, then you also have the option of 78, 22, and 202 for points in central and southern PA. If you are on 80 itself, you have NJ 15 heading to northern PA (the I-84 corridor)

[jeffandnicole]

My suggestions for I-80's control cities would be New York City EB and Cleveland, O (or OH) WB.
For I-95's cities, Philadelphia and Baltimore SB (Wilmington doesn't get mentioned they all scrublords (sarcasm)), and New York and New Haven NB.

Who uses "Cleveland, O"

[odditude]

I don't understand the appeal of signing cities with major highway intersections, but otherwise little significance, as control points. How many travelers know or care where the intersection is? If the highway is so important, add the highway itself to the sign with a "TO" legend. As bad are destinations on either side of the state line. How many people are taking I-287 North to Mahwah or US-1 South to Morrisville? At least the Delaware Water Gap (the park, not the town) is a tourist destination, so that one might sort of be ok for I-80.

Morrisville for US 1 makes sense, though; it's quite reasonably treated as a local route between its two interchanges with I-95 in the Trenton area.

can't really argue about Mahwah, though.

[noelbotevera]

My suggestions for I-80's control cities would be New York City EB and Cleveland, O (or OH) WB.
For I-95's cities, Philadelphia and Baltimore SB (Wilmington doesn't get mentioned they all scrublords (sarcasm)), and New York and New Haven NB.

Who uses "Cleveland, O"

It's the old abbreviation for Ohio. It was the same as what the US Postal Service used as Ohio's abbreviation prior to 1963. It's no longer used on modern road signs, but you can find them on some button copy signs.

[roadman65]

Paterson, Delaware Water Gap or Stroudsburg, Hazelton, and Sharon for WB then Youngstown.  EB should be Hazleton, Stroudsburg, and then New York.  No New Jersey like there is currently in East Stroudsburg, just right to New York.

[empirestate]

You know, I hadn't thought much about it before, but now this has me thinking about what the purpose of control cities should really be. One thing I'm sure of is that it shouldn't just be the place you think most people are trying to reach, because it's foolish to think you can guess where most people, or even a significant minority, are headed.

I'm also not sure that listing the most prominent city on the route is the aim, since the more prominent it is, the more likely that people will already be familiar with where it is. On the other hand, of course, you can't go for unheard-of places either, because how and why would you pick a random small town for use as a control city? So prominence is out.

My hunch is that what's most useful would be guidance through incremental steps, getting a motorist through a series of decision-making points which he can assemble into a reasonably complete journey. For example, way upthread someone mentioned "Illinois" as a control city for I-70, even though that route goes through relatively inconsequential parts of that state. But it makes sense to me, because if I'm in St. Louis and planning a trip eastward, I know that my first step is to cross the river out of the city and into Illinois. (As others have said, some amount of foreknowledge is due on my part.) So if I find a sign that reads "Illinois" and directs me onto I-70, I know I've made a good first move.

The challenge, of course, is how to pick these waypoints so that they are useful in a cumulative way. Using Interstate junction points makes sense for this, but as others have pointed out, people often won't know the city associated with these junctions, especially if they aren't well known places. It would make sense, then, to use the interstates themselves as control destinations, but for some reason that hasn't gained favor.

So anyway, as to the topic on hand, it seems that the control cities off of I-95 towards NYC should give some hint as to how they might be useful as part of a larger trip. To that end, I think the two tunnels should be signed for the part of NYC they reach, since those are more likely to be end points than part of a through trip. But the GWB serves traffic not only to outer areas of NYC, but also beyond, which in this case consists largely of New England. So it wouldn't bother me to see "New England" as a control destination, even though it isn't the best route to many parts of that region. It would serve me to know that my next step is to head towards New England and that this is the route that does it. Where exactly in New England isn't important yet; as I go farther on my trip I'll encounter my next waypoint, which will hopefully be signed appropriately to inform my next decision.


iPhone

[roadman65]

Having cities set up that way is good and it was before the interstate gaps were all completed.  For example "Emporia" was used on I-95 South from Petersburg instead of "Rocky Mount" which is use presently.  As the interstates built long freeways that could bring motorists further in much less time adjustments were made.  Emporia was used because US 301 was the old route and that was the next big town along the route, but I-95 really does not need it.

The same for I-78 and Clinton or Easton leaving the NYC metro area. Those were the two prominent control points because US 22 used to use them before the interstate was constructed.  Easton was chosen as one of the two because it is the first major city on US 22 into PA and at the border so it made a great reference point.  Clinton was the first big town after Somerville and the junction of NJ 31, a major N-S NJ route.

However now with I-78 completed across the Delaware River, it bypasses Easton so really Allentown could be used even from as far east as Newark.  However I do not think that NJDOT would catch on, but being they did for NYC as Newark was always the destination used for I-78 E Bound for many years previous.  Only on CR 513 in Clinton did they use "New York" as a ramp control city and, I think, NJ 173 in Bloomsbury as well.  Even I-287 used "Newark" after the Watchung segment opened in 1988 despite US 22 being signed for "New York" at the same exact time.  It was not until I-287 got widened to six lanes (ten between Somerville and I-78) the signs were replaced in the mid 90's.

[NE2]

NJDOT told me that they can only include cities for the neighbor border states only. For example you cannot include any signage for Boston because MA does not border NJ. Not sure why they cannot do this. Once I emailed them to include Montreal below Albany but was told that Montreal/Canada does not border NJ.

I'd tell you anything I could that would make you stop submitting ideas as silly as signing Montreal from NJ. Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore

2. New Haven on I-287. At least on advance signage for the I-87 interchange.

[Pete from Boston]

Youngstown?  Seriously?

I will buy a beer for anyone that can demonstrate that more than 3 out of 10 drivers on Route 80 even know where Youngstown is.  Moreover, it's 320+ miles from New Jersey, which in the Northeast may as well be another continent.*

It makes Montréal look reasonable.

No Youngstown signs in New Jersey, please.

* No, this is not the same as signing New York in Ohio.  New York has over 8,000,000 people.  Youngstown has 65,000 and has averaged a population loss of over 16% a decade for five decades.  It has lost the largest portion of its people of any US city formerly over 100,000.

I agree.

Control Cities are supposed to actually be helpful. Someone in Ohio obviously knows where New York City is, very few in New Jersey know what a Youngstown is.

If you must sign a long distance control city for I-80 in New Jersey then honestly Cleveland or Chicago make the most sense.

Scranton still suffices for me.  Two states away from New Jersey with run as long as 80 in Pennsylvania is just unnecessary.  Cleveland?  People would be more puzzled than anything.  Chicago is a thousand miles away. 

[noelbotevera]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

[cl94]

Even if say, Scranton, is signed from New Jersey, what should PennDOT use as control cities west of I-380? I get the issue with using Youngstown in New Jersey, but PennDOT takes things to an extreme with places like Clarion being control cities. Sharon has no business being a control city with Youngstown being right there. Maybe "State College" between I-380 and I-99 heading WB?

[hbelkins]

I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

I-80 doesn't go to Columbus. (Cue the infamous "I-76 doesn't go to Cleveland" outcry from Pittsburgh.")

I'm guessing that any NYC metro-area traffic bound for Columbus is going to use the NJTP, the PA Turnpike and I-70, which does go to Columbus, unless they're avowed shunpikers.

[cl94]

I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

I-80 doesn't go to Columbus. (Cue the infamous "I-76 doesn't go to Cleveland" outcry from Pittsburgh.")

I'm guessing that any NYC metro-area traffic bound for Columbus is going to use the NJTP, the PA Turnpike and I-70, which does go to Columbus, unless they're avowed shunpikers.

Depends on where they're going on either end. Google Maps shows the difference in travel time as negligible if traveling from the GW to downtown Columbus. If someone is driving off the bridge, the difference in time is solely based on traffic.

[Pete from Boston]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

Any idea what percentage of folks heading east on 80 are continuing on to Connecticut?  You might want to find out before picking an arbitrary set of locations.  I mean, there's Riverhead, White Plains, Providence... what if they're not all on guide signs?  Then what? 

[noelbotevera]

I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

I-80 doesn't go to Columbus. (Cue the infamous "I-76 doesn't go to Cleveland" outcry from Pittsburgh.")

I'm guessing that any NYC metro-area traffic bound for Columbus is going to use the NJTP, the PA Turnpike and I-70, which does go to Columbus, unless they're avowed shunpikers.

A simpler way would be I-80 to I-71, and is cheaper than NJTP to PATP to I-70. I've compared the tolls below

I-80 to I-71 via Ohio Turnpike: $4 with EZPass, $5.75 without EZPass
NJTP to PATP to I-70: Total of $45.80 without EZPass.

[noelbotevera]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

Any idea what percentage of folks heading east on 80 are continuing on to Connecticut?  You might want to find out before picking an arbitrary set of locations.  I mean, there's Riverhead, White Plains, Providence... what if they're not all on guide signs?  Then what?

It's supposed to match the I-95 control city north of New York City. It becomes New Haven if I remember, and Hartford is there for the I-87 to I-84 traveler.

[jeffandnicole]

I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

I-80 doesn't go to Columbus. (Cue the infamous "I-76 doesn't go to Cleveland" outcry from Pittsburgh.")

Neither does New York from I-95 in Maryland. 

[PHLBOS]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

Any idea what percentage of folks heading east on 80 are continuing on to Connecticut?  You might want to find out before picking an arbitrary set of locations.  I mean, there's Riverhead, White Plains, Providence... what if they're not all on guide signs?  Then what?

It's supposed to match the I-95 control city north of New York City. It becomes New Haven if I remember, and Hartford is there for the I-87 to I-84 traveler.

While I understand your intention, having Hartford listed as any eastbound I-80 destination makes no sense whatsoever (let alone being unnecessary).  Additionally & to the best of my knowledge, there are no I-87 northbound signs that list Hartford either. 

Most New England-bound travelers heading east on I-80 exit off at I-81 north (well before the Metropolitan NYC area) and use that to get to either I-78 (to I-287) I-287 or I-84.

[roadman65]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

Any idea what percentage of folks heading east on 80 are continuing on to Connecticut?  You might want to find out before picking an arbitrary set of locations.  I mean, there's Riverhead, White Plains, Providence... what if they're not all on guide signs?  Then what?

It's supposed to match the I-95 control city north of New York City. It becomes New Haven if I remember, and Hartford is there for the I-87 to I-84 traveler.

While I understand your intention, having Hartford listed as any eastbound I-80 destination makes no sense whatsoever (let alone being unnecessary).  Additionally & to the best of my knowledge, there are no I-87 northbound signs that list Hartford either. 

Most New England-bound travelers heading east on I-80 exit off at I-81 north (well before the Metropolitan NYC area) and use that to get to either I-78 (to I-287) or I-84.

I-287 intersects with I-80 in Parsippany, NJ.  No need to double back to just west of Harrisburg on I-81 to I-78 just to get to I-287, especially north.  Also most motorists to I-78 now use PA 33 at Bartonsville, PA as that is not so out of the way.

They do exit at I-81 north though to go to Upstate NY and New England.  They stay on I-81 for Upstate and Albany, and then for the Catskills, Hudson Valley, and ultimate Hartford and Boston use I-84 from Scranton.

[Pete from Boston]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

Any idea what percentage of folks heading east on 80 are continuing on to Connecticut?  You might want to find out before picking an arbitrary set of locations.  I mean, there's Riverhead, White Plains, Providence... what if they're not all on guide signs?  Then what?

It's supposed to match the I-95 control city north of New York City. It becomes New Haven if I remember, and Hartford is there for the I-87 to I-84 traveler.

Again, this assumes too much about the likely intentions of travelers with many potential destinations at that point.  The GW is one of the busiest bridges in the world, with many major highways heading off 95 on either side of it, and there is no clear consensus of Connecticut as a next destination for those folks like there is on the New England Thruway.

Moreover, you're signing 80, not 95.  Not every traveler (possibly not even most) at the eastern end of 80 was on it back where 280 splits off, so quite a few are going to be heading south on 95 (into the Meadowlands, to vainly attempt to to pull this back on topic).

"New York" really is specific enough at this point until you are actually signing the final exits for 95.

[PHLBOS]

I-287 intersects with I-80 in Parsippany, NJ.  No need to double back to just west of Harrisburg on I-81 to I-78 just to get to I-287, especially north.  Also most motorists to I-78 now use PA 33 at Bartonsville, PA as that is not so out of the way.

I've since modified my original post.  I was inadvertently thinking of somebody heading north along I-81 (from MD) when I typed I-78 to I-287.

[empirestate]

Retrying this with a new post.

I-80 EB: New York and Hartford OR New Haven
I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

Any idea what percentage of folks heading east on 80 are continuing on to Connecticut?  You might want to find out before picking an arbitrary set of locations.  I mean, there's Riverhead, White Plains, Providence... what if they're not all on guide signs?  Then what?

It's supposed to match the I-95 control city north of New York City. It becomes New Haven if I remember, and Hartford is there for the I-87 to I-84 traveler.

Again, this assumes too much about the likely intentions of travelers with many potential destinations at that point.  The GW is one of the busiest bridges in the world, with many major highways heading off 95 on either side of it, and there is no clear consensus of Connecticut as a next destination for those folks like there is on the New England Thruway.

Moreover, you're signing 80, not 95.  Not every traveler (possibly not even most) at the eastern end of 80 was on it back where 280 splits off, so quite a few are going to be heading south on 95 (into the Meadowlands, to vainly attempt to to pull this back on topic).

"New York" really is specific enough at this point until you are actually signing the final exits for 95.

I think you've brought up an important point: that the branching of I-280 (and probably NJ 24 via I-287 before it) represents a major decision point. Until then, "New York City" makes sense as a control city for I-80, because it gets you to the greater region of that city. At I-280, then, you'd have control points showing that this route serves southern parts of the region and may be best for final destinations in the city center, while I-80 would have control points showing it not only as the through route, but the route for northern parts of the region.

The question is, after the I-280 decision point, do you continue showing the northern/through control point ("GWB" or whatever we determine that to be)? Or to you go back to showing simply "New York City", because you now have traffic entering the route who didn't go through the decision, and some of them may be bound for central and southern points via the Turnpike, or routes on the New York side. I would think that, for those people, the main thing they need to know is which way goes toward the city and which goes away. So maybe: "I-80 EAST—New York" and "I-80 WEST—Pennsylvania" or simply "Outbound"?

[roadman65]

At the I-80 and I-280 split, New York or New York City is still the pull through destination, even though I-280 can indirectly get you to the Holland Tunnel via CR 508, NJ 7, US 1 & 9 Truck, and NJ 139.

Also at Wayne, where US 46 has an exit for those wishing to head east to Clifton and NJ 3, still has NYC as pull through along with the GWB as US 46 E Bound at Exit 52 uses Clifton and Lincoln Tunnel as control destinations without New York, despite most motorists from the west bound for Midtown would exit here.

So, the lack of New York at the decision points is not relevant as New York is listed all the way to the end of I-80 from pretty much all points.  I say pretty much because at CR 521 near Hope, NJDOT uses Netcong at that entry point, but as far as I know all pull through signs use "New York" or "New York City."  I do not know what all ramps say as I never been on all of them, nor have I been living in New Jersey for 25 years to be accurate.