Stopping for School Buses

[mrsman]

Not sure if this is in the right forum, but since I'm discussing some of the rules of the road, I though it would fit in here.  If not, please moderators move to appropriate forum.

I honestly believe that there need to be some modification for the rules regarding when a school bus must display their flashing red lights.  In most states, you must stop if a school bus flashes their red lights and you cannot proceed until the lights stop flashing.  This is true regardless of whether the school bus is on your side of the street or on the other side of the street, unless you are on a divided highway.

For a regular neighborhood stop, this is a very appropriate rule.  Children will entering or leaving the bus may come from either side of the street and will typically cross at least half the street to get to the bus.  This also makes routing easier, buses will only have to go down the street in one direction to serve both sides of the street. 

However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child.  In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service.  What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house.  I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus.  And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.

So I would prefer that if a school bus were stopping at a special stop for one child only, the school bus driver should not flash lights until the child is out of his house.  The school bus driver should not flash their lights, unless the child would need to step into the street to enter/exit the bus.  When discharging a full bus load of children at the destination, the bus should pull over on the right side and discharge all passengers without flashing the red lights.

Basically, the red lights should only flash when children need to step into the path of traffic to enter/exit the bus.  If the bus pulls over to the sidewalk on the correct side of the street, no lights should flash.

[1995hoo]

As a general matter I understand where you're coming from and I agree it can be damn annoying. On the other hand, I also know part of the reason for it has to do with little kids' irrational behavior. One reason school buses have largely gone to the flat-front design, instead of the design with the hood many of us grew up with, and also one reason why they now have that metal thing that swings out from the front bumper, is because of little kids who get off the bus on a windy day and some stupid item they're carrying gets blown out of their hand. Little kids instinctively run after the item. There have been incidents over the years of kids getting seriously injured when they ran in front of school buses unbeknownst to the driver, who started to move and then struck the kid. As adults, we all know whatever crappy piece of "artwork" or whatever it is isn't that important, but little kids don't think that way. You could suggest some kind of principle where you stop for elementary school buses but not for other ones, but practically speaking that doesn't work because it's unreasonable to expect the other drivers to know what school a bus serves (I never have any idea unless I see the kids getting on or off).

On the whole, then, I certainly understand using the red lights whenever kids are getting on or off the bus, even if it's a full load or a large load. I do think they ought to pull off into the service road if possible so that traffic on the main street can continue unimpeded. I also agree with you about stopping and waiting in front of the handicapped kid's house. If the kid hasn't exited the house, it's probably unreasonable to put on the flashers while the bus is waiting for him.

I got annoyed at a school bus driver who serves our neighborhood because when she was running ahead of schedule, she stopped in the right-turn lane that leads to our neighborhood and sat there with her turn blinker on. First, she shouldn't have stopped in the turn lane. She should have gone around the corner and stopped along the curb a safe distance away from the intersection. Second, if she wanted to stop to wait so the bus didn't come early, she should have used her hazard flashers, not her turn signal. I couldn't see around her and I pulled in behind her to turn right and got stuck there trying to get around her when she refused to move after I started honking (this when I could tell the way was clear because the other lanes were moving, which indicated a green light). Unfortunately I didn't get the bus number or I would have filed a complaint.

[tradephoric]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMekyvBkv0

In Colorado, on a 4-lane road with a painted median drivers traveling in the opposite direction are not required to stop (1:43).  Is this common in other states?  I have never heard of this before.

[RobbieL2415]

However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child.  In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service.  What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus.  And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.

In that amount of time I would have gotten out of my car and asked the driver of the bus to turn her lights off until she was actually physically boarding the child.  Leaving your lights on without just cause is likely illegal.  Most states have provisions in their MV statues that say that school busses do not have the authority to control traffic.  If this was something that happened consistently on one's morning commute, I would call the bus company and/or the police about it, but don't ever pass a school bus with flashing lights because while the law specifies when the lights are to be on, it doesn't excuse motorists from ever disregarding them.

[Brian556]

All the traffic laws regarding school busses and school zones are ridiculously unfair to drivers. The system is BS!

[cl94]

New York requires everyone to stop, even on a multilane highway. Having lived on a very busy section of US 20, I'm damn glad New York law requires stopping in both directions. It might be annoying, but over 99% of the time, it isn't for very long and too many children get hit by people who pass stopped buses even with the laws that exist.

[tradephoric]

However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child.  In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service.  What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus.  And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.

I was gone for 5 minutes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr5ORr7AYCg

[jakeroot]

Washington State seems to have pretty fair school bus laws:

1) As long as there's a center left turn lane, opposing traffic need not stop (students are not allowed to cross more than two lanes)
2) Buses may pull off the road to collect children from the same side of the road; in this case, only the hazards are required.

My grandfather is a school bus driver. He tells me that when he collects special-needs students, he almost always pulls over and parks, rarely (if ever) activating the stop-signals.

Washington RCW 46.61.370

[coatimundi]

In Colorado, on a 4-lane road with a painted median drivers traveling in the opposite direction are not required to stop (1:43).  Is this common in other states?  I have never heard of this before.

Definitely the exception, but it is also the case in California. Ironic somewhat with all of the extra regulations we like having.

I did find that Arizona has quite a nice way document depicting the school bus situations:
http://www.azgohs.gov/programs/School%20Bus%20Awareness%20Current%20Arizona%20Law.pdf

[jeffandnicole]

New York requires everyone to stop, even on a multilane highway. Having lived on a very busy section of US 20, I'm damn glad New York law requires stopping in both directions. It might be annoying, but over 99% of the time, it isn't for very long and too many children get hit by people who pass stopped buses even with the laws that exist.

Most states require vehicles to stop when there's only a yellow line separating the flow of traffic.  NY law requires all vehicles to stop, even on divided highways with medians and barriers.  How many kids have gotten hit after climbing over a guardrail or jersey barrier?

[Rothman]

New York requires everyone to stop, even on a multilane highway. Having lived on a very busy section of US 20, I'm damn glad New York law requires stopping in both directions. It might be annoying, but over 99% of the time, it isn't for very long and too many children get hit by people who pass stopped buses even with the laws that exist.

Most states require vehicles to stop when there's only a yellow line separating the flow of traffic.  NY law requires all vehicles to stop, even on divided highways with medians and barriers.  How many kids have gotten hit after climbing over a guardrail or jersey barrier?

This is what I'm thinking.  On Central Ave in Albany/Colonie, which is four lanes with a suicide lane, school districts aren't stupid enough to have school buses stop on the other side of the street from the kids' residences.  It's always the same side of the street (i.e., kids aren't running across five lanes of traffic!).

At least with how the school bus lines are run here, having opposite traffic stop on Central and similar streets is unnecessary (but, required by law).

[SP Cook]

The only issue I have with school buses are that around here there are many stops on good two lane roads with a 55 SL.  The closest I was ever to a major accident was I rounded a curve and there was a stopped school bus. in the opposite direction.   I stopped, and heard the screech of a large truck behind me who was not going to.  The bus driver frantically waved me and the truck to go on, which we did, thus "running" the red light.  Really buses should have organized pull offs and pick up kids there, or on side roads, and not on roads with that SL.

My main school issue is the rediculious school zone.  Here it is 15 SL.  But 95% of schools have ZERO kids that walk to school and the buses unload completly on campus with no interaction with the road at all.  There is no need for any SL reduction.  And the cops turn it into a random tax zone.  Very dangerous and unfair.

[jeffandnicole]

Per the OP's situation, I've seen this as well...luckily not on a route I travel regularly though so it's rare I'm stopped by a school bus. 

Below are 2 paragraphs of NJ's law pertaining to such a situation....

39:4-128.1  School buses stopped for children, certain disabled persons, duty of motorists, bus driver; violations, penalties.

...On highways having dual or multiple roadways separated by safety islands or physical traffic separation installations, the driver of a vehicle overtaking a school bus, which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any child or any person who has a developmental disability, shall stop such vehicle not less than 25 feet from such school bus and keep such vehicle stationary until such child or person who has a developmental disability has entered said bus or has alighted and reached the side of the highway and until a flashing red light is no longer exhibited by the bus.

...Whenever a school bus is parked at the curb for the purpose of receiving or discharging a person who has a developmental disability on the same side of the street as that on which the bus is parked, drivers of vehicles shall be permitted to pass the bus without stopping, but at a speed not in excess of 10 miles per hour....

So, if you read this, does anyone find the law in contradiction with itself?  One paragraph says you must stop; the other paragraph says you don't have to stop.  The only thing I can determine is in the 2nd paragraph, stopping at the curb (ie: on the shoulder) permits one to pass the bus; in the 1st paragraph it refers to stopping in the lane of travel.  And how does one know the bus has stopped for a child with disabilities anyway, until you see the child?

[RobbieL2415]

Per the OP's situation, I've seen this as well...luckily not on a route I travel regularly though so it's rare I'm stopped by a school bus. 

Below are 2 paragraphs of NJ's law pertaining to such a situation....

39:4-128.1  School buses stopped for children, certain disabled persons, duty of motorists, bus driver; violations, penalties.

...On highways having dual or multiple roadways separated by safety islands or physical traffic separation installations, the driver of a vehicle overtaking a school bus, which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any child or any person who has a developmental disability, shall stop such vehicle not less than 25 feet from such school bus and keep such vehicle stationary until such child or person who has a developmental disability has entered said bus or has alighted and reached the side of the highway and until a flashing red light is no longer exhibited by the bus.

...Whenever a school bus is parked at the curb for the purpose of receiving or discharging a person who has a developmental disability on the same side of the street as that on which the bus is parked, drivers of vehicles shall be permitted to pass the bus without stopping, but at a speed not in excess of 10 miles per hour....

So, if you read this, does anyone find the law in contradiction with itself?  One paragraph says you must stop; the other paragraph says you don't have to stop.  The only thing I can determine is in the 2nd paragraph, stopping at the curb (ie: on the shoulder) permits one to pass the bus; in the 1st paragraph it refers to stopping in the lane of travel.  And how does one know the bus has stopped for a child with disabilities anyway, until you see the child?

NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.

[jeffandnicole]

NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.

Not quite.  Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.

There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.

39:4-128.4.  Approaching or overtaking stopped frozen dessert truck; stopping
    a.  The driver of a vehicle approaching or overtaking from either direction  a frozen dessert truck stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching the  truck when the flashing red lights and stop signal arm described in section 3  are in use.  After stopping, a driver may proceed past such truck at a  reasonable and prudent speed, not exceeding 15 miles per hour, and shall yield  the right of way to any pedestrian who crosses the roadway to or from the  frozen dessert truck.

[kkt]

NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.

My daughter would like for us to always stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business!

[cl94]

NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.

Not quite.  Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.

There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.

39:4-128.4.  Approaching or overtaking stopped frozen dessert truck; stopping
    a.  The driver of a vehicle approaching or overtaking from either direction  a frozen dessert truck stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching the  truck when the flashing red lights and stop signal arm described in section 3  are in use.  After stopping, a driver may proceed past such truck at a  reasonable and prudent speed, not exceeding 15 miles per hour, and shall yield  the right of way to any pedestrian who crosses the roadway to or from the  frozen dessert truck.

I agree. Kids go crazy when they see/hear an ice cream truck and you never know if one will dart into the road.

And as far as stopping the other direction, a kid that drops something will run after it instinctively, even if it blows to the far side of the road. There have been incidents caused by these seemingly-trivial things.

[jemacedo9]

However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child.  In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service.  What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house.  I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus.  And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.

This happens here in Rochester NY a lot.  The school bus will stay in the lane while it is waiting, but will flash it's YELLOW lights, which means you can pass.  When the child comes out of the front door, then the RED lights will flash.  To me, that is how it should be done everywhere.

[odditude]

Per the OP's situation, I've seen this as well...luckily not on a route I travel regularly though so it's rare I'm stopped by a school bus. 

Below are 2 paragraphs of NJ's law pertaining to such a situation....

39:4-128.1  School buses stopped for children, certain disabled persons, duty of motorists, bus driver; violations, penalties.

...On highways having dual or multiple roadways separated by safety islands or physical traffic separation installations, the driver of a vehicle overtaking a school bus, which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any child or any person who has a developmental disability, shall stop such vehicle not less than 25 feet from such school bus and keep such vehicle stationary until such child or person who has a developmental disability has entered said bus or has alighted and reached the side of the highway and until a flashing red light is no longer exhibited by the bus.

...Whenever a school bus is parked at the curb for the purpose of receiving or discharging a person who has a developmental disability on the same side of the street as that on which the bus is parked, drivers of vehicles shall be permitted to pass the bus without stopping, but at a speed not in excess of 10 miles per hour....

So, if you read this, does anyone find the law in contradiction with itself?  One paragraph says you must stop; the other paragraph says you don't have to stop.  The only thing I can determine is in the 2nd paragraph, stopping at the curb (ie: on the shoulder) permits one to pass the bus; in the 1st paragraph it refers to stopping in the lane of travel.  And how does one know the bus has stopped for a child with disabilities anyway, until you see the child?

the first paragraph indicates a stopped bus, the second a parked bus. as for your other question... your guess is as good as mine.

[paulthemapguy]

Since this is in "Traffic Control," here is a sign I've only ever seen posted in Illinois.  It makes things a little bit clearer for drivers here.  This one is posted on Exchange Street near Crete IL, at the Indiana border so that the Hoosiers crossing over can get it through their heads  Note that there are no exceptions for 4-way roads of any sort.



It is mentioned on page 33 of the Illinois MUTCD supplement:
http://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Transportation-System/Manuals-Guides-&-Handbooks/Highways/Operations/2009%20ILMUTCD%20-%202014%20update.pdf

[SP Cook]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

[paulthemapguy]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

I think it's so that when the cops pull over the out-of-staters (their main prey), the driver can't claim ignorance when he/she says "I didn't know you had to stop when there's a school bus!"

[Super Mateo]

NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.

Not quite.  Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.

There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.

I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.

[Brandon]

However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child.  In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service.  What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house.  I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus.  And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.

This happens here in Rochester NY a lot.  The school bus will stay in the lane while it is waiting, but will flash it's YELLOW lights, which means you can pass.  When the child comes out of the front door, then the RED lights will flash.  To me, that is how it should be done everywhere.

There's a short bus that does similar near my house.  It'll stop at the residence to pick up the kid & wait with no lights, yellow or red, until the front door opens.  Then it goes to yellow until the student is somewhat close to the bus, when the lights will go to red with the stop sign out.

[Brandon]

Since this is in "Traffic Control," here is a sign I've only ever seen posted in Illinois.  It makes things a little bit clearer for drivers here.  This one is posted on Exchange Street near Crete IL, at the Indiana border so that the Hoosiers crossing over can get it through their heads  Note that there are no exceptions for 4-way roads of any sort.



It is mentioned on page 33 of the Illinois MUTCD supplement:
http://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Transportation-System/Manuals-Guides-&-Handbooks/Highways/Operations/2009%20ILMUTCD%20-%202014%20update.pdf

Here's what Illinois law has to say on it, from the Rules of the Road:

School Buses
You must stop before meeting or overtaking (passing) a school bus loading or unloading passengers on a two-lane road way. A warning will be given by the school bus at least 100 feet (200 feet in rural areas) in advance of a stop. The bus driver will flash amber and red lights on the front and rear of the bus. The stop signal arm will be extended after the school bus has come to a complete stop. You must then come to a complete stop. You must remain stopped until the stop signal arm is no longer extended and the flashing lights are turned off or the driver signals you to pass.

On a four-lane roadway where a bus is stopped in the opposite direction from which you are traveling, you are not required to stop your vehicle but you should drive with caution.