Stopping for School Buses

[Ian]

Since this is in "Traffic Control," here is a sign I've only ever seen posted in Illinois.  It makes things a little bit clearer for drivers here.  This one is posted on Exchange Street near Crete IL, at the Indiana border so that the Hoosiers crossing over can get it through their heads  Note that there are no exceptions for 4-way roads of any sort.



It is mentioned on page 33 of the Illinois MUTCD supplement:
http://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Transportation-System/Manuals-Guides-&-Handbooks/Highways/Operations/2009%20ILMUTCD%20-%202014%20update.pdf

Here's PennDOT's version of that sign...
https://goo.gl/maps/BWtWC3J1dYL2

[kkt]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy.  Many drivers are probably going faster.

[RobbieL2415]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy.  Many drivers are probably going faster.

Governors on school busses are annoying.  They make merging more difficult and hazardous.  I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.

[cl94]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy.  Many drivers are probably going faster.

The buses in my district were governed at 55. Quite annoying when field trips took us on the Thruway or up to Niagara Falls.

Governors on school busses are annoying.  They make merging more difficult and hazardous.  I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.

[paulthemapguy]

Governors on school busses are annoying.  They make merging more difficult and hazardous.  I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.

Agreed, it's terrible.  The act of making school buses go too slow on high-speed highways actually endangers the kids.  The whole school bus becomes an obstacle that the other drivers have to dodge.  It encourages collisions.  Every time I hear things like "speed kills" I'm like  Some eye for nuance, PLEASE.

[jeffandnicole]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy.  Many drivers are probably going faster.

Governors on school busses are annoying.  They make merging more difficult and hazardous.  I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.

At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways.  Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit.  Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit?  And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.

[cl94]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy.  Many drivers are probably going faster.

Governors on school busses are annoying.  They make merging more difficult and hazardous.  I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.

At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways.  Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit.  Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit?  And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.

Quite a few New York districts do and I have confirmed it with the bus garages. From what I can gather, there are actually some laws in place here requiring all or most of the buses in a district to be governed at 55, with exceptions for buses that often travel on freeways.

[jeffandnicole]

Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that.  Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving.  Never understood the point of the signs.

School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy.  Many drivers are probably going faster.

Governors on school busses are annoying.  They make merging more difficult and hazardous.  I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.

At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways.  Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit.  Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit?  And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.

Quite a few New York districts do and I have confirmed it with the bus garages. From what I can gather, there are actually some laws in place here requiring all or most of the buses in a district to be governed at 55, with exceptions for buses that often travel on freeways.

So we're talking 10 mph below the max limit where most NY buses will be travelling, not 15.  It would be a concern if the buses had to travel on, say, I-80 in PA going to an event.  But unlike what many people think, vehicles do travel 10 mph below the limit on highways all the time.  The biggest problem is when they aren't in the proper lane, not their speed.

[tradephoric]

Just look at how much havoc a slow driver can cause.  Everyone is driving safely along at 195 mph and then BAMM!.... some  slow idiot tries to merge up into traffic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhXmnLlOQZQ

[1995hoo]

When I was a kid, school buses in Virginia had hard governors limiting them to 45 mph, even when I was in high school and the Interstates had a 65-mph speed limit for cars (but 55 for trucks and buses back then). They later, after the split speed limit was scrapped, changed it to allow school buses to go 55 on highways where the speed limit was 65 (and now 70). I always thought the 45-mph provision was one of the most asinine laws I'd ever heard of. Some school bus drivers actively avoided using the Interstate because they said it felt unsafe to drive that slowly.

[Zeffy]

Maybe if they are older than a certain age, but everyone acts completely different on a road test versus how they normally act. What good is seeing if people remember how to parallel park (something I and others can do much easier thanks to backup cameras), how to yield, following the speed limit (come on, everyone ignores this outside of a road test), and so forth? You can't test someone's skill by a road test. You can only test if they are capable of performing easy tasks in a controlled environment.

[jeffandnicole]

I would be fine with a retest every 10 years.  While most people will do things just to please the instructor, hopefully they will do enough things wrong not even thinking about it.  Stuff like stopping past a stop line and in the crosswalk, or instantly moving to the center lane of a highway are so commonplace people don't think about it, but it's technically illegal behavior. 

It doesn't help matters when one day I saw a student driver driving the speed limit...in one of the middle lanes of a 4 lane highway getting passed on both sides.  When the driving instructor isn't telling the kid to keep right, the kid's going to maintain that bad behavior for his entire life.

[cl94]

I would be fine with a retest every 10 years.  While most people will do things just to please the instructor, hopefully they will do enough things wrong not even thinking about it.  Stuff like stopping past a stop line and in the crosswalk, or instantly moving to the center lane of a highway are so commonplace people don't think about it, but it's technically illegal behavior. 

It doesn't help matters when one day I saw a student driver driving the speed limit...in one of the middle lanes of a 4 lane highway getting passed on both sides.  When the driving instructor isn't telling the kid to keep right, the kid's going to maintain that bad behavior for his entire life.

A 10 year retest would be great. Get the lazy drivers off the road, as well as the old people who shouldn't be driving. There would be much less road rage and the roads would be safer. Lazy drivers and old people going extremely slow scare me more than young drivers.

[SP Cook]

The probem with driver testing is that it is just some silly thing, mostly parallel parking, that does not test real driver skills.  Really, the best thing to do with people is a SERIOUS vision test and a SERIOUS test of reflexes, which are the things that decline with age.

As to any discussion of "speeding", everyone must remember that every SL increase has led to a traffic mortality and morbidity.   Since our SLs are still way too low, being judgemental about those who wisely choose to drive safe and fast is silly.

[kkt]

The probem with driver testing is that it is just some silly thing, mostly parallel parking, that does not test real driver skills.  Really, the best thing to do with people is a SERIOUS vision test and a SERIOUS test of reflexes, which are the things that decline with age.

Agree about the uselessness of parallel parking tests.  I'm glad I can parallel park and think it's a useful skill, but if someone is bad at it, it's not a safety issue.  It's between them and the paint on their hubcaps.

As to any discussion of "speeding", everyone must remember that every SL increase has led to a traffic mortality and morbidity.   Since our SLs are still way too low, being judgemental about those who wisely choose to drive safe and fast is silly.

I am not following you here.  Are you missing a key word somewhere?

[Pete from Boston]

NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.

Not quite.  Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.

There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.

I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.

Half of them are now gourmet bacon sorbet trucks geared at adults.  You lost this fight before you picked it.

[paulthemapguy]

I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.

Half of them are now gourmet bacon sorbet trucks geared at adults.  You lost this fight before you picked it.

Good god.  Bacon sorbet?  That's a thing?  And ice cream trucks for adults? ...Are these real?

[Pete from Boston]

I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.

Half of them are now gourmet bacon sorbet trucks geared at adults.  You lost this fight before you picked it.

Good god.  Bacon sorbet?  That's a thing?  And ice cream trucks for adults? ...Are these real?

There are these things called "foodies," that walk among humans and only show their true selves at feeding time.

If you only knew the extent of the food trucks.  You can make something twice as ridiculous and sell it for twice as much if it's on a truck.

[1995hoo]

Ignoring the political nonsense.... If there were to be a driver retest system, I think rather than focusing on things like parallel parking, turning into the curb lane, etc., it might be more useful to focus on knowledge, especially things that have changed over the years. My favorite example of that is how to use antilock brakes properly. There are a lot of people who learned to drive prior to widespread availability of ABS and who will release the pedal when it starts vibrating (of course, that's exactly the wrong thing to do). There are plenty of other things like that that people won't necessarily ever learn under the "get your license once and never get retested" system. (I set aside trivialities like how apparently now they say to hold the steering wheel at 8 and 4. Seems to me you hold it in the place that's most comfortable for how your steering wheel is designed.)

[Pete from Boston]

Wait, TWO hands?

[bzakharin]

The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.

[jeffandnicole]

The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.

The best way is to ensure clear sightlines, which is something the various transportation departments and municipalities should control by monitoring their right-of-ways along the street.

Outside of that, stopping twice is the legal way of doing it, even if it is a PITA.

[bzakharin]

The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.

The best way is to ensure clear sightlines, which is something the various transportation departments and municipalities should control by monitoring their right-of-ways along the street.

Outside of that, stopping twice is the legal way of doing it, even if it is a PITA.

So how do you clear sightlines in a residential suburban neighborhood like this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9236731,-74.9913354,3a,75y,175.5h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP1SfLSCtBVHu3UNSS5bPqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Chop down all the trees? I doubt the residents would approve.

[jeffandnicole]

The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.

The best way is to ensure clear sightlines, which is something the various transportation departments and municipalities should control by monitoring their right-of-ways along the street.

Outside of that, stopping twice is the legal way of doing it, even if it is a PITA.

So how do you clear sightlines in a residential suburban neighborhood like this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9236731,-74.9913354,3a,75y,175.5h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP1SfLSCtBVHu3UNSS5bPqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Chop down all the trees? I doubt the residents would approve.

You don't. Which is why you should stop twice.

It wouldn't be so bad, except the neighbor put those flowers/shrubs/fence on the corner there.  Trees between the sidewalk and road look nice as well, but in the long run they cause issues with heaved sidewalks, curbing, roads, power lines, underground utilities, etc.  And that's all in addition to sight lines.  Every time someone backs out of their driveway, those trees block views.  I'm not saying get rid of trees...I'm saying more thought was needed on where they should've been planted.

[jakeroot]

You don't. Which is why you should stop twice.

I usually just roll up onto the crosswalk, presuming there's no camera. But stopping on the crosswalk is illegal in some parts of the country. So, in places, you are legally only permitted to stop once.