NC is requesting I-36 for US 70 East Corridor and I-89 for RDU to Norfolk corr

[WashuOtaku]

I don't see Virginia being proactive.  I expect them to wait till its built right to the border then muddle for several more years before reluctantly building their small section of it.

-sigh- I agree. Like I said, it's just wishful thinking on my part. The leaders in Hampton Roads definitely support I-87 but the interstate has no love in Richmond. Hell, only 4 out of 11 VA congressmen supported the ROAD amendment of the FAST Act while all of NC's supported it. I guarantee Hampton Roads wouldn't have had a future interstate corridor signed into law if it wasn't for NC. In the unlikely case VA ever does build their part, Hampton Roads can thank NC for it.

That is because North Carolina sees the full potential of Hampton Roads.  Historically, from the Great Dismal Swamp Canal to railroads, the Hampton Roads area has been a big economic part of eastern North Carolina.  With Hampton Roads being one of the deep ports that can already handle thew new line of Panamax ships, its no surprised North Carolina wants a major interstate between the two.  Virginia don't care, they have their connections and don't see it benefiting them as much, except for the Hampton Roads area.

[wdcrft63]

I think why AASHTO thought of I-87 in hopes that the Delmarva might upgrade US 13 completely to interstate standards someday like in 2100.  However, if that ever did happen even in our lifetime, it would give the 1 to 6 on the NJ Turnpike an interstate designation as after I-95 in Delaware, it could duplex to the Delaware Memorial Bridge and up the NJT to duplex again in Central and North Jersey and connect to the other I-87 in the Bronx!

You can hop on over to Fictional Highways, where there is a thread discussing ways to connect the two sections of I-87.

I don't think AASHTO was thinking about possible northward extensions of I-87 when they approved the NC application. By "AASHTO" what we mean is the US Route Numbering Committee of that organization. The committee members are DOT officials from different states across the country. They read the applications and get together to vote on them. I've served on committees a lot in my life, and generally they want to get their jobs done as quickly as possible. They'll approve these applications routinely as long as no one comes in with a good reason to do otherwise. It goes like this: "NC wants an I-87...anybody have a problem with that?...No?...OK it's done, let's move on to the next application."

[hotdogPi]

It goes like this: "NC wants an I-87...anybody have a problem with that?...No?...OK it's done, let's move on to the next application."

Except NC wanted an I-89.

[LM117]

I don't see Virginia being proactive.  I expect them to wait till its built right to the border then muddle for several more years before reluctantly building their small section of it.

-sigh- I agree. Like I said, it's just wishful thinking on my part. The leaders in Hampton Roads definitely support I-87 but the interstate has no love in Richmond. Hell, only 4 out of 11 VA congressmen supported the ROAD amendment of the FAST Act while all of NC's supported it. I guarantee Hampton Roads wouldn't have had a future interstate corridor signed into law if it wasn't for NC. In the unlikely case VA ever does build their part, Hampton Roads can thank NC for it.

That is because North Carolina sees the full potential of Hampton Roads.  Historically, from the Great Dismal Swamp Canal to railroads, the Hampton Roads area has been a big economic part of eastern North Carolina.  With Hampton Roads being one of the deep ports that can already handle thew new line of Panamax ships, its no surprised North Carolina wants a major interstate between the two.  Virginia don't care, they have their connections and don't see it benefiting them as much, except for the Hampton Roads area.

That sounds about right.

[wdcrft63]

It goes like this: "NC wants an I-87...anybody have a problem with that?...No?...OK it's done, let's move on to the next application."

Except NC wanted an I-89.

That's right! and I don't know I forgot that. So it's not quite as simple as I said before. But I still don't think AASHTO was looking at possible future extensions; they said something like, "I-89? that's weird. Wouldn't I-87 align better with the grid?'

[orulz]

Well, so much for Interstate 36 and Interstate 89. Both were rejected. Personally, I still think both corridors should have gotten even-numbered Interstate designations. Here's another question for my fellow AARoads posters. Once 495 becomes 87, where would you move the 495 designation to, if anywhere?

As for new spur routes, I think that if they ever completed the US-17 bypass of New Bern (unlikely, the only reason to do so would be to cut off some extra mileage) , it would make a good I-142, but that's way, way out in fictional territory.

I am somewhat surprised, though certainly not disappointed, that they plan to upgrade US70 through James City to in interstate rather than just extending the US17 bypass and signing it as I-42. When faced with the question to upgrade the existing highway or bypass it, North Carolina almost always chooses the bypass alternative, except in extremely rural areas - and especially in built up areas like this. Even now I still half expect them to cancel the James City interstate segment and take the bypass route instead.

LGL33L

[slorydn1]

Well, so much for Interstate 36 and Interstate 89. Both were rejected. Personally, I still think both corridors should have gotten even-numbered Interstate designations. Here's another question for my fellow AARoads posters. Once 495 becomes 87, where would you move the 495 designation to, if anywhere?

As for new spur routes, I think that if they ever completed the US-17 bypass of New Bern (unlikely, the only reason to do so would be to cut off some extra mileage) , it would make a good I-142, but that's way, way out in fictional territory.

I am somewhat surprised, though certainly not disappointed, that they plan to upgrade US70 through James City to in interstate rather than just extending the US17 bypass and signing it as I-42. When faced with the question to upgrade the existing highway or bypass it, North Carolina almost always chooses the bypass alternative, except in extremely rural areas - and especially in built up areas like this. Even now I still half expect them to cancel the James City interstate segment and take the bypass route instead.

LGL33L

Problem is, they really can't. The Croatan National Forest is a major roadblock to bypassing James City to the west and Neuse River is a major roadblock to bypassing James City to the east. The feds won't allow a new corridor through their forest, because, God forbid, a woodpecker or 2 might be displaced and have to find a new tree to nest in-its not like they don't have elevendy billion other trees they can find a home in-oh wait.


I am truly surprised they acquiesced to the new Havelock Bypass, to be honest. I guess that's because most of it will go over terrain not technically part of the national forest.


Converting the section from the Twin Spans (that's what we locals call the Freedom Memorial Bridge over the Trent River) to the beginning of the Havelock bypass will be a major PITA for those of us that live and work here, yes. But when it's finished, it will have been worth it. From some of the rough sketches that I have seen of it, it seems that it will be similar to what I saw when I traveled I-30 in Texas, with slip-ramp exits and to the service roads on both sides at interchanges, and those service roads will be converted to one-way travel as opposed to both being two way roads as they are now. I think it will be pretty cool, if I get to live long enough to actually see it, LOL.

[Thing 342]

Well, so much for Interstate 36 and Interstate 89. Both were rejected. Personally, I still think both corridors should have gotten even-numbered Interstate designations. Here's another question for my fellow AARoads posters. Once 495 becomes 87, where would you move the 495 designation to, if anywhere?

As for new spur routes, I think that if they ever completed the US-17 bypass of New Bern (unlikely, the only reason to do so would be to cut off some extra mileage) , it would make a good I-142, but that's way, way out in fictional territory.

I am somewhat surprised, though certainly not disappointed, that they plan to upgrade US70 through James City to in interstate rather than just extending the US17 bypass and signing it as I-42. When faced with the question to upgrade the existing highway or bypass it, North Carolina almost always chooses the bypass alternative, except in extremely rural areas - and especially in built up areas like this. Even now I still half expect them to cancel the James City interstate segment and take the bypass route instead.

LGL33L

Aside from the National Forest issue, I suspect that it may also be because US-70 has frontage roads through there, meaning that no new ROW would have to be procured. May also appease local businesses somewhat, as motorists would be able to see them from I-42.

I'm guessing that work on this section will progress piece-by-piece, starting with a SPUI at Williams Rd, and continuing by removing other median breaks and replacing them with RIROs.

[orulz]

From some of the rough sketches that I have seen of it, it seems that it will be similar to what I saw when I traveled I-30 in Texas, with slip-ramp exits and to the service roads on both sides at interchanges, and those service roads will be converted to one-way travel as opposed to both being two way roads as they are now. I think it will be pretty cool, if I get to live long enough to actually see it, LOL.

I have seen freeways like that with long contiguous frontage roads in other states, especially Texas, but I am not aware of any in NC? Mostly a product of NC's tendency to bypass rather than upgrade, IMO. Can somebody think of any examples where a frontage road is at least 2 miles long or so, and is a true frontage road where it always has the same, narrow buffer between it and the mainline highway?

Do the plans you have seen show that the frontage roads will be one-way? That will be a requirement in order to have slip ramps but not need any new ROW, I would think.

[slorydn1]

From some of the rough sketches that I have seen of it, it seems that it will be similar to what I saw when I traveled I-30 in Texas, with slip-ramp exits and to the service roads on both sides at interchanges, and those service roads will be converted to one-way travel as opposed to both being two way roads as they are now. I think it will be pretty cool, if I get to live long enough to actually see it, LOL.

I have seen freeways like that with long contiguous frontage roads in other states, especially Texas, but I am not aware of any in NC? Mostly a product of NC's tendency to bypass rather than upgrade, IMO. Can somebody think of any examples where a frontage road is at least 2 miles long or so, and is a true frontage road where it always has the same, narrow buffer between it and the mainline highway?

Do the plans you have seen show that the frontage roads will be one-way? That will be a requirement in order to have slip ramps but not need any new ROW, I would think.

Ummmm    

[Henry]

Then again, there was a proposed I-101 for the Philly-Raleigh route, IIRC. So I've been led to believe that I-87 (and I-89) must've been inspired by that fact.

[roadman65]

It goes like this: "NC wants an I-87...anybody have a problem with that?...No?...OK it's done, let's move on to the next application."

Except NC wanted an I-89.

That's right! and I don't know I forgot that. So it's not quite as simple as I said before. But I still don't think AASHTO was looking at possible future extensions; they said something like, "I-89? that's weird. Wouldn't I-87 align better with the grid?'

They could really do what Pennsylvania did, notably Bud Schuster, and sign the dang number into law. Then AASHTO would have no say in the matter like they have no say over Texas signing I-2 even though its orphaned from the rest of the interstate system.

However, I-87 is good.  It lets all all dream about how to use US 13 and the NJT to connect the two segments.

[froggie]

Then AASHTO would have no say in the matter like they have no say over Texas signing I-2 I-69E/69C even though its orphaned from the rest of the interstate system.

FTFY.  I-2 was not written into law.

[Mapmikey]

I have seen freeways like that with long contiguous frontage roads in other states, especially Texas, but I am not aware of any in NC? Mostly a product of NC's tendency to bypass rather than upgrade, IMO. Can somebody think of any examples where a frontage road is at least 2 miles long or so, and is a true frontage road where it always has the same, narrow buffer between it and the mainline highway?

Do the plans you have seen show that the frontage roads will be one-way? That will be a requirement in order to have slip ramps but not need any new ROW, I would think.

Except for the crossing of the Lumber River, the entirety of I-95 in the Lumberton area from US 74 ALT (old Exit 14) and US 301 Exit 22 have continuous frontage roads on both sides.

I-85 in Charlotte has a couple sections like this

[roadman65]

I-4 in between Lakeland and Plant City has frontage roads on both sides.  It did, however, get altered and some of the WB frontage road got severed when I-4 was widened from four to six lanes and the new Exit 25 ramps were reconfigured.  Now the road dead ends on one side of County Line Road.

[Henry]

I have seen freeways like that with long contiguous frontage roads in other states, especially Texas, but I am not aware of any in NC? Mostly a product of NC's tendency to bypass rather than upgrade, IMO. Can somebody think of any examples where a frontage road is at least 2 miles long or so, and is a true frontage road where it always has the same, narrow buffer between it and the mainline highway?

Do the plans you have seen show that the frontage roads will be one-way? That will be a requirement in order to have slip ramps but not need any new ROW, I would think.

Except for the crossing of the Lumber River, the entirety of I-95 in the Lumberton area from US 74 ALT (old Exit 14) and US 301 Exit 22 have continuous frontage roads on both sides.

I-85 in Charlotte has a couple sections like this

And so does the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago. Frontage roads are most common in large urban areas, seeing that there are many businesses accessed by them.

[Thing 342]

Keep in mind that the Grassfield and Scenic Pkwy intersections along the new Dominion Blvd are only being built at-grade. (and would be difficult to convert into interchanges due to abutting businesses)

Too bad the interstate idea wasn't thought of before the Dominion Boulevard project got underway.  Bad timing. 

Speaking of that, however, the new exits on the Dominion Blvd freeway will be numbered using US-17 mileage (which would also necessarily be I-87's mileage), so I wonder if the city of Chesapeake (the ones behind the upgrade, not VDOT) might be interested in the future. The I-87 proposal also made an appearance on the local news recently, which is rare for these types of projects.

[Mapmikey]

Dominion Blvd has had mile markers on it back to the VA 104 days which built upon US 17's mileage from the NC line...

Interestingly, the last study (2006) on an interstate corridor up US 17 and then the Eastern Shore did not use I-64 at all.  It had the interstate head east on the Southeastern Parkway, then connected to I-264 near the Oceanfront to head west back to around VA 225 to head north to the CBBT.

Also, Maryland wants to use US 13 while Delaware wants to use US 113.

Maps are at the end of this document - http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/I-99_Final_Report_-_VDOT_website.pdf

[Henry]

Interesting that they called this proposal I-99, even when the one in PA was already established! My guess is that they wanted to keep it separate from the other.

[LM117]

Keep in mind that the Grassfield and Scenic Pkwy intersections along the new Dominion Blvd are only being built at-grade. (and would be difficult to convert into interchanges due to abutting businesses)

Too bad the interstate idea wasn't thought of before the Dominion Boulevard project got underway.  Bad timing. 

I wonder if the city of Chesapeake (the ones behind the upgrade, not VDOT) might be interested in the future. The I-87 proposal also made an appearance on the local news recently, which is rare for these types of projects.

I don't see why they wouldn't be. The leaders in HR were vocal in their support for the interstate when the bill was introduced in Congress. The state, for the most part, isn't interested. NC pretty much strong-armed VA into getting the bill passed. Hampton Roads wouldn't be on a future interstate corridor otherwise. I have relatives living in Norfolk and Virginia Beach and they tell me that the sentiment there is that NC is paying more attention to Hampton Roads economically, than their own state. I don't live there, so I don't know how true it is, but that's what I was told . There's also no love for NoVA in Hampton Roads. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just passing on what I've heard. 

[Mapmikey]

To be fair, it would cost Virginia a fair bit to convert US 17 to an interstate because it would either have to re-open the old alignment along the Dismal Canal or build 2 or 3 extra interchanges to allow access to roads that have at-grade access now.

Access to most of North Carolina from the ports is possible via US 58/I-95, so providing an interstate to the one segment of North Carolina that is largely unpopulated would be an expense borne by Virginia for nearly no benefit to Virginia.  I can see why North Carolina might want to have as much access to Hampton Roads as they can based on this study (may have a point of view bias but it does show some interesting things) of NC port access: http://savethecape.org/stcwp1/wp-content/uploads/PDFs/Otherports4.pdf

North Carolina certainly understands the point of view of Virginia not spending $ that largely doesn't benefit themselves.  NC hasn't done much with I-95 over the years with this same principle in mind - upgrading it doesn't benefit that many North Carolinians.

[WashuOtaku]

North Carolina certainly understands the point of view of Virginia not spending $ that largely doesn't benefit themselves.

This is why I believe if North Carolina builds out I-87, it will stop right at the state line into Virginia like I-74 does now and soon to be I-73.

[wdcrft63]

North Carolina certainly understands the point of view of Virginia not spending $ that largely doesn't benefit themselves.

I understand why Virginians outside the HR area would think that way. But for people in Hampton Roads, NE NC really is part of their metropolitan area.

[froggie]

re-open the old alignment along the Dismal Canal

Which, given that some pavement was removed and the rest of the old alignment was converted into a bike/ped path, would likely require reconstruction of the old alignment.

But for people in Hampton Roads, NE NC really is part of their metropolitan area.

Statistically, per the Census, yes.  But speaking from long experience, few Hampton Roads people cross south of the border unless they're going to the Outer Banks.

[Mapmikey]

I understand why Virginians outside the HR area would think that way. But for people in Hampton Roads, NE NC really is part of their metropolitan area.

I suppose the reverse might be true - NE NC thinking they are part of the Hampton Roads area since a fair number of folks commute to HR from NC.  I'd be surprised as a former HR resident if HR thought of NE NC as part of HR.

But even if I am wrong, it doesn't mean Virginia should spend $ on a route that has been already greatly updated in the last 15 years.  If US 17 were still on its dark and dangerous canal path 2-lane alignment (headlights were needed in the daytime parts of it were so dark) then I would opine that the upgrade would be needed.

HR has some pressing needs (new I-64 High Rise Bridge) that cost big bucks, so as with I-73 it is a matter of prioritization. 

It's a game lots of neighboring states play.  Virginia is on the short end of the stick with Maryland because Maryland won't widen US 15 south of US 340 (despite it being pretty dangerous and the ROW is already in place) or do anything about I-495 north of the American Legion Bridge.  Virginia elected to build some of their improvements on 495 but has so far elected not to do anything with US 15 unless Maryland changes their mind.