Washington

[kphoger]

I doubt an HOV lane incentivizes much actual carpooling. It's just cars that happen to have two or more people in them. So it's rewarding the appearance of virtue.

The abundance of HOV lanes in the region is not the only tool being used to encourage more efficient commutes. Since 1991, large businesses in Washington are required to participate in the state's commute trip reduction program, which includes subsidies for transit passes (many opt for an unlimited monthly pass, which is a nice perk), payments for carpool/vanpool users, and other monetary incentives. One of my friends who worked for a tech giant in the area got a $7 daily "bonus" if he arrived at work without using a personal vehicle; parking at that workplace was also charged fairly high because it was in a transit-accessible area. Some employers provide free or more convenient parking for carpool and vanpool users, while others have shuttle bus fleets of their own.

So it's more than just appearances. There's a reason why Downtown Seattle had a 46% transit and 9% carpool/vanpool rate in 2019, compared to 26% in single-occupant vehicles. Which is a pretty significant decline from 35% SOV in 2010. (Source)

How does any of that contradict what |pderocco| said?

So a lot of people receive incentives to carpool.  Then those people, who already happen to be in 2+ vehicles, get to use the HOV lane.  But that's not to say the HOV lane is what got them into carpooling in the first place.  The incentives were.

[Rothman]

I loathe 3+ with a passion.  HOV 2+ is always sufficient for those who think this is a good way of keeping a lane less congested.

On the contrary, most of the 2+ lanes in the Seattle area are regularly congested. The worst offender, I-5 to the North and South of Seattle, usually has the HOV lane saving barely few minutes over the regular lanes, if that.

I doubt an HOV lane incentivizes much actual carpooling. It's just cars that happen to have two or more people in them. So it's rewarding the appearance of virtue.

The abundance of HOV lanes in the region is not the only tool being used to encourage more efficient commutes. Since 1991, large businesses in Washington are required to participate in the state's commute trip reduction program, which includes subsidies for transit passes (many opt for an unlimited monthly pass, which is a nice perk), payments for carpool/vanpool users, and other monetary incentives. One of my friends who worked for a tech giant in the area got a $7 daily "bonus" if he arrived at work without using a personal vehicle; parking at that workplace was also charged fairly high because it was in a transit-accessible area. Some employers provide free or more convenient parking for carpool and vanpool users, while others have shuttle bus fleets of their own.

So it's more than just appearances. There's a reason why Downtown Seattle had a 46% transit and 9% carpool/vanpool rate in 2019, compared to 26% in single-occupant vehicles. Which is a pretty significant decline from 35% SOV in 2010. (Source)

Pfft.  Those other actions are more than appearances, but the HOV 3+ is.

[jakeroot]

So it's more than just appearances. There's a reason why Downtown Seattle had a 46% transit and 9% carpool/vanpool rate in 2019, compared to 26% in single-occupant vehicles. Which is a pretty significant decline from 35% SOV in 2010. (Source)

Why are you citing data published nearly six years ago? Commute Seattle has much more recent data.

https://www.commuteseattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Commute-Seattle_Seattle-Commute-Survey-24_FIN.pdf

The COVID-19 pandemic significantly changed commute behavior. Public transit use plummeted from 46% in 2019 to 18% in 2021 as most people shifted to remote work. In 2024, remote work began to decline while public transit use began to trend back up. Remote workers who switched to in-person work in 2024 were most likely to drive alone or take public transit. The percentage of people driving alone into Center City surpassed pre-pandemic levels at 27% in fall 2024.

Carpooling/shuttle buses declined from 9% to 7%, though up from 3% in 2022.

[Bruce]

So it's more than just appearances. There's a reason why Downtown Seattle had a 46% transit and 9% carpool/vanpool rate in 2019, compared to 26% in single-occupant vehicles. Which is a pretty significant decline from 35% SOV in 2010. (Source)

Why are you citing data published nearly six years ago? Commute Seattle has much more recent data.

https://www.commuteseattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Commute-Seattle_Seattle-Commute-Survey-24_FIN.pdf

The COVID-19 pandemic significantly changed commute behavior. Public transit use plummeted from 46% in 2019 to 18% in 2021 as most people shifted to remote work. In 2024, remote work began to decline while public transit use began to trend back up. Remote workers who switched to in-person work in 2024 were most likely to drive alone or take public transit. The percentage of people driving alone into Center City surpassed pre-pandemic levels at 27% in fall 2024.

Carpooling/shuttle buses declined from 9% to 7%, though up from 3% in 2022.

Mostly because the pandemic and shift to WFH has radically changed what the commute modeshare looks like. I'm using a comparison from the pre-pandemic era to reflect why the HOV lanes were built in a time before WFH was viable.

[Bruce]

I doubt an HOV lane incentivizes much actual carpooling. It's just cars that happen to have two or more people in them. So it's rewarding the appearance of virtue.

The abundance of HOV lanes in the region is not the only tool being used to encourage more efficient commutes. Since 1991, large businesses in Washington are required to participate in the state's commute trip reduction program, which includes subsidies for transit passes (many opt for an unlimited monthly pass, which is a nice perk), payments for carpool/vanpool users, and other monetary incentives. One of my friends who worked for a tech giant in the area got a $7 daily "bonus" if he arrived at work without using a personal vehicle; parking at that workplace was also charged fairly high because it was in a transit-accessible area. Some employers provide free or more convenient parking for carpool and vanpool users, while others have shuttle bus fleets of their own.

So it's more than just appearances. There's a reason why Downtown Seattle had a 46% transit and 9% carpool/vanpool rate in 2019, compared to 26% in single-occupant vehicles. Which is a pretty significant decline from 35% SOV in 2010. (Source)

How does any of that contradict what |pderocco| said?

So a lot of people receive incentives to carpool.  Then those people, who already happen to be in 2+ vehicles, get to use the HOV lane.  But that's not to say the HOV lane is what got them into carpooling in the first place.  The incentives were.

I'm saying the HOV lane is just one of many perks offered. There is probably a survey floating around out there that asks whether the fast-moving HOV lane (of years long past) was an incentive for folks to stop driving.

I know for certain that the bus-only lanes and entrances for our first express bus (the Blue Streak in 1970) did influence people to stop driving into downtown and hop on transit. It was commissioned with federal funding to see how popular a good bus can get, and was successful enough to keep existing up until 2021, when it was replaced by a train.

[Rothman]

I doubt an HOV lane incentivizes much actual carpooling. It's just cars that happen to have two or more people in them. So it's rewarding the appearance of virtue.

The abundance of HOV lanes in the region is not the only tool being used to encourage more efficient commutes. Since 1991, large businesses in Washington are required to participate in the state's commute trip reduction program, which includes subsidies for transit passes (many opt for an unlimited monthly pass, which is a nice perk), payments for carpool/vanpool users, and other monetary incentives. One of my friends who worked for a tech giant in the area got a $7 daily "bonus" if he arrived at work without using a personal vehicle; parking at that workplace was also charged fairly high because it was in a transit-accessible area. Some employers provide free or more convenient parking for carpool and vanpool users, while others have shuttle bus fleets of their own.

So it's more than just appearances. There's a reason why Downtown Seattle had a 46% transit and 9% carpool/vanpool rate in 2019, compared to 26% in single-occupant vehicles. Which is a pretty significant decline from 35% SOV in 2010. (Source)

How does any of that contradict what |pderocco| said?

So a lot of people receive incentives to carpool.  Then those people, who already happen to be in 2+ vehicles, get to use the HOV lane.  But that's not to say the HOV lane is what got them into carpooling in the first place.  The incentives were.

I'm saying the HOV lane is just one of many perks offered. There is probably a survey floating around out there that asks whether the fast-moving HOV lane (of years long past) was an incentive for folks to stop driving.

HOV lanes are not business perks...

[jakeroot]

Why are you citing data published nearly six years ago? Commute Seattle has much more recent data.

https://www.commuteseattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Commute-Seattle_Seattle-Commute-Survey-24_FIN.pdf

The COVID-19 pandemic significantly changed commute behavior. Public transit use plummeted from 46% in 2019 to 18% in 2021 as most people shifted to remote work. In 2024, remote work began to decline while public transit use began to trend back up. Remote workers who switched to in-person work in 2024 were most likely to drive alone or take public transit. The percentage of people driving alone into Center City surpassed pre-pandemic levels at 27% in fall 2024.

Carpooling/shuttle buses declined from 9% to 7%, though up from 3% in 2022.

Mostly because the pandemic and shift to WFH has radically changed what the commute modeshare looks like. I'm using a comparison from the pre-pandemic era to reflect why the HOV lanes were built in a time before WFH was viable.

Roger, I was assuming so. But then the same line of reasoning could be used to argue against a higher-than-usual occupancy requirement for an HOV lane. Carpooling has become marginally less common over the years, and commute patterns are becoming inconsistent with WFH. It's hard to plan a carpool when you don't know if your buddies are actually going to be working that day. Especially if you don't work for the same company.

I think carpool lanes are here to stay, although I do see us moving towards combined toll/HOV/bus lanes as the new norm. And if those routes suffer because of 2-person carpools clogging the lane, then they can be adjusted to 3+ during peak hour. Like the 405 between Lynnwood and Bellevue.

Since the 520 reopened ten years ago, many new miles of HOV/toll lanes have opened: I-5 through Tacoma, 167 between 18 and Sumner, and I-5 north of Everett. All of them are 2+, and the latter two aren't even in effect during off hours. And all are roads with much higher traffic counts than the 520.

So, to circle back, to me, this all makes the 24/7 3+ HOV lane on the 520, a freeway that barely suffers from any peak hour congestion, seem totally laughable. Especially post-pandemic.

[jakeroot]

HOV lanes are not business perks...

Ehhh, legally they kinda are, if your business has more than 100 people. Your business is legally obligated to incentivize non-single occupancy trips. Carpool lanes are integral to that incentive.

[Plutonic Panda]

HOV lanes are not business perks...

Ehhh, legally they kinda are, if your business has more than 100 people. Your business is legally obligated to incentivize non-single occupancy trips. Carpool lanes are integral to that incentive.

Would that be the same case for businesses in California? That will give you free transit passes because a lot of big businesses or corporations I've worked for offer you a free transit pass.

[jakeroot]

HOV lanes are not business perks...

Ehhh, legally they kinda are, if your business has more than 100 people. Your business is legally obligated to incentivize non-single occupancy trips. Carpool lanes are integral to that incentive.

Would that be the same case for businesses in California? That will give you free transit passes because a lot of big businesses or corporations I've worked for offer you a free transit pass.

I'm sure a lot of major cities in the United States have commute incentive programs. But they don't really work if you don't build the infrastructure to support the commute alternatives.

[Rothman]

HOV lanes are not business perks...

Ehhh, legally they kinda are, if your business has more than 100 people. Your business is legally obligated to incentivize non-single occupancy trips. Carpool lanes are integral to that incentive.

The mere existence of HOV lanes aren't a business perk.  I mean, what does a business do besides allow reserved parking for carpools and let their employees organize into such?

[kphoger]

If my company offered a cash kickback for carpooling, I guarantee that some people would take advantage of it, even though Wichita has zero infrastructure to support it.

[Max Rockatansky]

If my company offered a cash kickback for carpooling, I guarantee that some people would take advantage of it, even though Wichita has zero infrastructure to support it.

I'm sometimes amused when I notice the carpool lanes along some on-ramps with CA 41.  They to my knowledge are the only "HOV anything" that is within Caltrans District VI.  I find it kind of interesting that relatively decent size cities like Fresno and Bakersfield are pretty much devoid of HOV infrastructure. 

[kphoger]

I find it kind of interesting that relatively decent size cities like Fresno and Bakersfield are pretty much devoid of HOV infrastructure. 

Is there any need?  Are Fresno and Bakersfield plagued by traffic jams?

Heh.  I recently found this on Reddit:

City of Wichita wants to add 80 miles of bike lanes. Here's where

Comment deleted by user

Ah yes, the infamously traffic clogged Wichita, Kansas which ranked 858th out of 945 major urban areas in terms of traffic delay. I think the people have suffered enough!

[Max Rockatansky]

I find it kind of interesting that relatively decent size cities like Fresno and Bakersfield are pretty much devoid of HOV infrastructure. 

Is there any need?  Are Fresno and Bakersfield plagued by traffic jams?

Heh.  I recently found this on Reddit:

City of Wichita wants to add 80 miles of bike lanes. Here's where

Comment deleted by user

Ah yes, the infamously traffic clogged Wichita, Kansas which ranked 858th out of 945 major urban areas in terms of traffic delay. I think the people have suffered enough!

99 can back up pretty much anywhere from Selma through Fresno to about Avenue 12 in Madera.  41 north of the 180 interchange frequently has traffic congestion issues during rush hours.

To illustrate how bad traffic on 99 gets I work at NAS Lemoore and my wife works in downtown Madera.  She has a 28 mile drive which is largely comprised of 99 and some freeway miles on 180.  I have a 38.5 mile drive on 41, 198 and a bunch of farm roads.  Most days I'll beat her home by 10-15 minutes if we leave work at the same time (today is one of those days).