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Author Topic: Interstate 81 in Syracuse  (Read 75095 times)

Alps

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #800 on: October 15, 2020, 02:18:53 PM »

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
You know, though, existing hospital and low-income housing ARE engineering reasons - you can't engineer a road without taking properties that are infeasible.

Plutonic Panda

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #801 on: October 15, 2020, 03:02:36 PM »

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
then build the damn tunnel. How can one of the richest counties in the world not afford a 10> mile tunnel. This is embarrassing. I guess Iíll just bitch about this like the 710 tunnel in LA that wasnít built until itís done.
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kalvado

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #802 on: October 15, 2020, 03:08:00 PM »

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
then build the damn tunnel. How can one of the richest counties in the world not afford a 10> mile tunnel. This is embarrassing. I guess Iíll just bitch about this like the 710 tunnel in LA that wasnít built until itís done.
You better ask how residents of Syracuse can afford minimal housing and food (the answer is subsidized substandard housing and food stamps, as 30% live below poverty line). This is before any geology questions are asked.
Unlike much milder CA, living in the street in winter is not an option in upstate NY...and unlike well-to-do CA, rust belt cannot afford a few extra billion on frivolous highway projects.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 03:10:10 PM by kalvado »
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cl94

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #803 on: October 15, 2020, 03:21:13 PM »

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
You know, though, existing hospital and low-income housing ARE engineering reasons - you can't engineer a road without taking properties that are infeasible.

Define "infeasible". It's not technical infeasibility here, it's political infeasibility. As in NY is unwilling to relocate low-income housing. It's certainly possible to do so, but it would get so dragged down in court that it's not even worth attempting. FHWA only issues exemptions for physical infeasibility.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
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dkblake

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #804 on: October 15, 2020, 04:42:15 PM »


Define "infeasible". It's not technical infeasibility here, it's political infeasibility. As in NY is unwilling to relocate low-income housing. It's certainly possible to do so, but it would get so dragged down in court that it's not even worth attempting. FHWA only issues exemptions for physical infeasibility.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

Especially since the political argument for getting rid of the viaduct is that it contributed to "other side of the tracks" inequality between the wealthier University hill and the poorer South Side projects...
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kphoger

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #805 on: October 15, 2020, 05:54:22 PM »

Wow, am I the only one who did a double-take at dkblake's username?

dzlsabe
dkblake
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seicer

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #806 on: October 15, 2020, 07:01:11 PM »


Define "infeasible". It's not technical infeasibility here, it's political infeasibility. As in NY is unwilling to relocate low-income housing. It's certainly possible to do so, but it would get so dragged down in court that it's not even worth attempting. FHWA only issues exemptions for physical infeasibility.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

Especially since the political argument for getting rid of the viaduct is that it contributed to "other side of the tracks" inequality between the wealthier University hill and the poorer South Side projects...

An interesting revisit, from The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/syracuse-slums/416892/
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #807 on: October 16, 2020, 03:45:54 AM »

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
then build the damn tunnel. How can one of the richest counties in the world not afford a 10> mile tunnel. This is embarrassing. I guess Iíll just bitch about this like the 710 tunnel in LA that wasnít built until itís done.
You better ask how residents of Syracuse can afford minimal housing and food (the answer is subsidized substandard housing and food stamps, as 30% live below poverty line). This is before any geology questions are asked.
Unlike much milder CA, living in the street in winter is not an option in upstate NY...and unlike well-to-do CA, rust belt cannot afford a few extra billion on frivolous highway projects.
I am not quite sure what youíre getting at. It isnít about being to afford it. This country has the money to undertake massive infrastructure projects. Itís about allocating the money and as said here political feasibility. This freeway serves more than the residents of Syracuse.

At the end of the day it can be built and any person that says the only option is for it to go with no replacement is just making up excuses to support their desire to see it go away. There were alternatives given that would result in less property acquisitions while still maintaining this route through Syracuse as a tunnel but it was costly. Then there were alternatives given that would rebuild the viaduct as is or expanded. Canít do that either says some. The only option apparently is a downgraded facility and a rerouted interstate that will become like I-40 in Memphis. Just horrible short term planning going on here.
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kalvado

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #808 on: October 17, 2020, 03:07:57 PM »

This country has the money to undertake massive infrastructure projects.
I don't know which country you live in, but in US highway trust fund is predicted to go into red in a few years, federal and state budgets are running significantly deficit, and arguably much more important project of similar value in NY  - replacement of Tappan Zee bridge, a strategic link between upstate and NYC - was done using loans without identified repayment sources.   
Just horrible short term planning going on here.
Why, it is pretty much a part of a long term strategy: "last person out of upstate, please turn off the lights before you leave". More seriously, negative growth of population is a predicted trend over here, traffic is planned accordingly
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 03:12:38 PM by kalvado »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #809 on: October 17, 2020, 03:11:33 PM »

This country has the money to undertake massive infrastructure projects.
I don't know which country you live in, but in US highway trust fund is predicted to go into red in a few years, federal and state budgets are running significantly deficit, and arguably much more important project of similar value  - replacement of Tappan Zee bridge, a strategic link between upstate and NYC - was done using loans without identified repayment sources.   
Just horrible short term planning going on here.
Why, it is pretty much a part of a long term strategy: "last person out of upstate, please turn off the lights before you leave"

I was referring to the entity known as the United States of America lol... not the highway trust fund. It needs to be fixed. I saw a bill that funds 100 percent federal funding for the next two years but Iím not holding my breath it goes anywhere.
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dkblake

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #810 on: October 17, 2020, 10:09:06 PM »

Wow, am I the only one who did a double-take at dkblake's username?

dzlsabe
dkblake

Common first initial + common last name = this happens frequently  :D
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