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Author Topic: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?  (Read 11551 times)

froggie

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2016, 07:20:28 AM »

Far too many random primary-to-secondary route number changes to count here.

I am unaware of any secondary-to-secondary route number changes, however, at county lines.
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Mapmikey

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2016, 07:25:47 AM »

How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.

All secondary routes retain their numbers crossing county lines.  i am aware of 3 exceptions - 1 current and 2 historical:

Current:  Algonkian Parkway (Loudoun 1582/Fairfax 6220).

Past: Louisa SR 665 became Orange 600 (this is now SR 669 on both sides).  This was likely unintentional as SR 665 only had 0.15 miles before it turned into VA 16.  Orange may have thought the primary designation went to the county line.

Nottoway SR 645 became Brunswick 614.  This was a direct result of Nottoway not opting in to the state maintenance of its roads right away.  All the surrounding counties did and two of them had a SR 614 at the Nottoway line.  This was corrected by 1945 when Brunswick and Nottoway swapped their 614 designations for 645. 

I found the Nottoway example and credit goes to NE2 for the other two...


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cpzilliacus

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2016, 08:43:05 AM »

Far too many random primary-to-secondary route number changes to count here.

Certainly those can be found around Virginia.  In Fairfax County, 309 (Old Dominion Drive) becomes 738 at 123 (Dolley Madison Boulevard).

But changes that happen right on a county line (aside from the two mentioned upthread)? 

I am unaware of any secondary-to-secondary route number changes, however, at county lines.

Not sure I have ever seen one personally.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 11:12:18 AM by cpzilliacus »
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1995hoo

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2016, 09:33:05 AM »

Far too many random primary-to-secondary route number changes to count here.

Certainly those can be found around Virginia.  In Fairfax County, 309 (Old Dominion Drive) becomes 738 at 123 (Dolley Madison Boulevard).

But changes that happy right on a county line (aside from the two mentioned upthread)? 

....

Locally in Northern Virginia, you have Van Dorn Street, which is a primary route (401) within the City of Alexandria and becomes a secondary route (613) when it crosses into Fairfax County. A few years ago the CTB was considering whether to extend the primary designation further south, but Fairfax County opposed it and the idea was dropped.
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Mapmikey

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2016, 09:38:10 AM »

From a thread in 2014...

Quote
The current list of routes that have an endpoint at a CL or County Line.  I probably have missed one or two...
VA 67, VA 68, VA 98 (sort of), VA 99, VA 136, VA 139, VA 142, VA 162, VA 181, VA 187, VA 188, VA 213, VA 227, VA 228, VA 244, VA 290, VA 397, VA 407

I did miss VA 401.  Depending on interpretation, VA 402 might also qualify.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2016, 10:40:49 AM »

From a thread in 2014...

Quote
The current list of routes that have an endpoint at a CL or County Line.  I probably have missed one or two...
VA 67, VA 68, VA 98 (sort of), VA 99, VA 136, VA 139, VA 142, VA 162, VA 181, VA 187, VA 188, VA 213, VA 227, VA 228, VA 244, VA 290, VA 397, VA 407

I did miss VA 401.  Depending on interpretation, VA 402 might also qualify.

Is 401 signed?  At all?

244 was decommissioned in most of Arlington County for the  Columbia Pike streetcar project (now cancelled). I suppose it will not return to VDOT maintenance at this point.

Amusingly, on the other side of the creek, the state of Maryland took over maintenance from Montgomery  County of several streets on which the proposed Purple Line light rail will run (if the current NIMBY litigation can be settled).

These new Maryland state highways are:  MD-594A, Wayne Ave/E Wayne Ave; MD-594B, Bonifant St (west); MD-594C, Bonifant St (east); and MD-594D, Arliss St.  Last time I was by there, none were signed as state-maintained.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 12:41:53 PM by cpzilliacus »
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Mapmikey

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2016, 10:53:52 AM »

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1995hoo

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2016, 10:54:40 AM »

401 is definitely signed. See, for example, the odd-looking shield on the northbound side near the Metro stop:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8004328,-77.1339509,3a,75y,21.89h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st3bV4Lfqy4TpbXaEGEvZdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

EDITED TO ADD: Mapmikey posted the same one while I was typing. That sign was still there as of this weekend.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: There is also this other ugly thing outside BJ's. I haven't been through in that direction recently to note whether it's still there. I'm off work today and I need to head over to King Street later, so I may come home via that route to confirm.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8126328,-77.1310511,3a,75y,267.5h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s72e29TjjBkdIVvX-Y8m3uQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


There was briefly an error VA-401 shield on a BGS on the Inner Loop in Maryland when the signs first went up for the Beltway's Local/Thru split. The sign for the Thru lane exits listed Van Dorn Street with a quite well-done VA-401 shield, but it was an error because at the Beltway interchange it's Route 613. It was corrected fairly quickly. If you look closely in the following link, you can see the greenout:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8154696,-76.9542028,3a,75y,258.08h,81.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv7t6vknJC7SIcQe7KHmLhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 11:06:51 AM by 1995hoo »
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2016, 12:45:24 PM »

401 is definitely signed. See, for example, the odd-looking shield on the northbound side near the Metro stop:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8004328,-77.1339509,3a,75y,21.89h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st3bV4Lfqy4TpbXaEGEvZdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

EDITED TO ADD: Mapmikey posted the same one while I was typing. That sign was still there as of this weekend.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: There is also this other ugly thing outside BJ's. I haven't been through in that direction recently to note whether it's still there. I'm off work today and I need to head over to King Street later, so I may come home via that route to confirm.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8126328,-77.1310511,3a,75y,267.5h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s72e29TjjBkdIVvX-Y8m3uQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


There was briefly an error VA-401 shield on a BGS on the Inner Loop in Maryland when the signs first went up for the Beltway's Local/Thru split. The sign for the Thru lane exits listed Van Dorn Street with a quite well-done VA-401 shield, but it was an error because at the Beltway interchange it's Route 613. It was corrected fairly quickly. If you look closely in the following link, you can see the greenout:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8154696,-76.9542028,3a,75y,258.08h,81.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv7t6vknJC7SIcQe7KHmLhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Hoo and Mapmikey, good catches!  I have been up and down that street quite a few times, and I will be darned if I have seen those (I have even been to that BJ's).

Could it be that I am subconsciously expecting sign placement to be similar to the way that VDOT specifies it?  Does not usually happen in Alexandria
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1995hoo

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2016, 01:30:10 PM »

Hoo and Mapmikey, good catches!  I have been up and down that street quite a few times, and I will be darned if I have seen those (I have even been to that BJ's).

....

I drive on that road all the time, so I see the one underneath the speed limit sign quite frequently. Off the top of my head I cannot think of any others aside from the one at BJ's, but the Street View imagery is a little outdated in spots, so who knows.



Returning to the original topic, I was looking at this clickable speed limit map and I found its creators refer to secondary routes in the format "SC-###[direction]"—for example, clicking on Franconia Road in front of St. Lawrence Church pops up the following listing (boldface removed because I can't be bothered to insert the formatting codes):

Quote
Speed Limits
Car Speed Limit: 35
Truck Speed Limit: 35
Speedzone Type: Conventional
Authority: Resolution
Length in Miles: 6.21
Route: SC-644E (Fairfax County)
Start Jurisdiction: Fairfax County
End Jurisdiction: Fairfax County
Route Type: Secondary Route
Start District: Northern Virginia
End District: Northern Virginia

It seems like they list a direction even on undivided roads, as clicking on Telegraph Road outside Greendale Golf Course returned a reference to "SC-611N." (For primary routes, they substitute "VA-" for "SC-," and of course as you'd expect they use "US-" and "I-" where appropriate.)

http://virginiaroads.org/Mapping/#SpeedZones
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Mapmikey

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2016, 01:34:09 PM »

Offline someone has alerted me to 6 more examples of the SR number changing at the county line.  These are just northwest of the US 221-460/VA 220 ALT intersection...

Cortland Road (Botetourt SR 1464/Roanoke SR 1003) – SR transition is unposted.
*Orchard Park Drive (1459/1048) – unposted
*Gala Drive (1453/1025) - posted
*Rome Drive (1456/1024) - posted
*Hillview Drive (1420/1011) - posted
*Laurel Ridge Drive (1444/1447) - posted

Most of these 6 are posted - https://goo.gl/maps/e8PeZnVR7Rm

The Botetourt side of the neighborhood came first.  When it was connected into Roanoke County my guess is that Botetourt didn't feel like renumbering them to numbers Roanoke had available.  Roanoke ended up using numbers it had once used long ago.
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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2016, 03:19:31 PM »

How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I don't think very many of West Virginia's county (secondary) routes do, if any.
Old US 21 (CR 21) and old US 33 (CR 151) do, but that's pretty much it. Numbering for the non-fractional county routes generally seems to start in the northwestern corner of the county and increase as you head south and east, so it's unlikely the grids are going to overlap between counties.
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1995hoo

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2016, 05:48:56 PM »

Following up on the Route 401 signs, I drove it both ways about an hour ago and I noted three signs:

—The northbound one Mapmikey and I posted before, same as shown in those images.

—The southbound one outside BJ's has been replaced with a sign that's identical to the northbound one except it doesn't have a speed limit sign on the same pole.

—There's also another one southbound outside the McDonald's just south of Edsall Road; that sign looks like the old one outside BJ's shown in the Street View image linked above. It's on Street View but it's hard to see due to a truck:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8069547,-77.1334749,3a,75y,285.89h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9ieq5RGvc0_iHI8O3JgLcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

odditude

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2017, 09:24:49 AM »

Sorry for the necrobump, but while going through this topic I noticed an incorrect assumption I wanted to clear up.

I was under the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that the New Jersey  numbered "secondary" highway  route numbers (those in the 500 to 699 range) do not repeat (of course, that is easier for New Jersey to accomplish since the Garden State has a much smaller land area than the Commonwealth of Virginia).
You are correct for the 500-series routes, which do not repeat.

However, the other country routes (600+ and 0-99 in the counties that don't agree with the rest of the state) are only unique in-county. Burlington CR 626 (from Beverly to Mt Holly) is a completely different road from Camden CR 626 (Chapel Ave, largely in Cherry Hill). 600-series routes can and do change numbers when crossing county lines, although there are examples of route number coordination as well (Old Marlton Pike is CR 600 in both Burlington and Camden Counties).
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Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2017, 10:49:35 PM »

I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.

Happens with VA 68. Becomes a secondary at the Wise/Lee line for no apparent reason.
Also VA 108 becomes SSR 890 at the Henry Franklin county line. It used to go up to VA 40 but was downgraded in Franklin County.
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Mapmikey

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2017, 11:09:37 PM »

Also VA 108 becomes SSR 890 at the Henry Franklin county line. It used to go up to VA 40 but was downgraded in Franklin County.

This is not accurate.  VA 108 ends 1.65 miles short of the county line.  See page 8 of the May 1952 CTB - http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-05-1952-01.pdf

It is also posted that way in the field where it ends at Henry SR 657 swing the view around to the other direction to see VA 108 reassurance - https://goo.gl/maps/8tergNt41t32

The original question from Oct '16 was whether secondary numbers ever change at county lines in Virginia.  I am aware of examples with Fairfax-Loudoun and with Roanoke-Botetourt.  Historically Nottoway-Prince Edward (I think...Nottoway is definitely right) also had one.
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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2017, 11:43:28 PM »

Glad I remembered seeing this thread. Question: are SR routes concurrent with US and VA routes for continuance purposes? I know if they are then they're not signed at all for the most part but I remember a long time ago there were these arrows under the circle shield on US 258 in Isle Of Wight county. This old GSV actually shows one still in use at the time but I believe it's gone now

https://goo.gl/maps/p2yChSArFpw
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Mapmikey

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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2017, 06:20:04 AM »

Glad I remembered seeing this thread. Question: are SR routes concurrent with US and VA routes for continuance purposes? I know if they are then they're not signed at all for the most part but I remember a long time ago there were these arrows under the circle shield on US 258 in Isle Of Wight county. This old GSV actually shows one still in use at the time but I believe it's gone now

https://goo.gl/maps/p2yChSArFpw

Posting like you've linked to here is district-dependent.  District 8 (Staunton) has many postings like this for short SR concurrencies.

There are some actual dually posted primary/secondary pairs that are longer than a couple tenths of a mile:

VA 185 and VA 285 are entirely co-posted with secondary routes.

VA 208 is co-posted with a secondary designation for a while in the Post Oak area.

VA 242 is posted as To SR 600 as it's entire route overlays a chunk of SR 600.

On paper, some of the VA 42 missing links are concurrent with secondary routes.

Spot checking traffic data, the secondary routes do not get mileage or traffic count data on its primary route overlays regardless of distance (other than the VA 42 gaps).
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US: 4 6N 9W 11E 11W 13 15 19W 21 44 46 48 58 72 92 113 117 123 130 158 163 176 178 192 206 209 211 219 220 221 222 258 264 276 290 311 319 322 340 360 378 401 ew422 501 521 522 601 701
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Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2017, 11:53:56 AM »

The Staunton district is the best in the Commonwealth for consistent posting of SRs and SR multiplexes with other routes (including other SRs).

Northern Virginia would have be the worst. SR multiplexes are very rarely posted. Many intersections (in Fairfax and Prince William County, particularly) have no SR postings at all or the SR is only posted very small on street sign blades (Prince William County). Chesterfield County is not much better, but the VDOT Richmond district posts well in other counties. 
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