AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma  (Read 18996 times)

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7023
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:53:26 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #175 on: August 28, 2019, 06:37:50 PM »

Quote from: sparker
So what is revealed here is that (a) ODOT is more than willing to lay down and play dead when political (read NIMBY/local revenue) opposition rears it head, and (b) they tend to hold back public info on projects, partially likely because of (a) above!

Nah, actually there is a different game involved: the two big cities in OK versus everybody else.

The US-69 corridor is in urgent need of upgrades all along the route from the Red River up to Big Cabin. But there are plenty of other highway corridors elsewhere in Oklahoma that urgently need upgrades (or just repair work) too. The state has a very limited amount of funding to spread around for all these projects. Representatives in these affected areas have to do their own bit of lobbying and campaigning just to get attention to their needs. The big cities always have highways in need of major (and very expensive) improvements. That gobbles up a hell of a lot of the highway funding pie.

So if the folks in Muskogee don't want a new freeway then ODOT is going to be only too happy to blow the money that would have been spent on that project on something else in someone else's city or town. ODOT didn't lay down and play dead for anybody.

I think the folks in Muskogee looked a gift horse in the mouth. They passed up on something that would have made US-69 a much better and safer highway through their town. They passed up on something that would have fueled new business and residential growth. Now ODOT will do something far more modest (hardly anything at all) on the existing US-69 corridor. Meanwhile the heavy truck traffic can keep putting its wear and tear on the infrastructure along the existing route.

Long term, the small cities and towns along US-69 in Oklahoma need to understand all those cars and trucks that currently use US-69 to bypass OKC and Tulsa aren't going to take that route forever. The stop lights suck. The speed traps are rage inducing and essentially a loud "F.U." to all the long distance motorists using that road. When other limited access alternatives open, like I-49 or I-69 in the next state, many are going to take their driving and their business elsewhere.

I don't even understand the logic of these folks. Freeways and turnpikes do have exits. Drivers do leave the super highways to get fuel, eat, sleep and buy stuff just like they possibly could driving along a road in town with a bunch of stop lights. If a motorist gets snagged in a town's speed trap he's not going to feel like buying shit from any business in that town. Speed traps aren't as much of a thing on super highways.

Like Breezewood, there is a highly bounded rationality in play with Muskogee -- they apparently feel backed into a corner, economically speaking, and see no recourse except to maintain the status quo regarding patronage of the motels and restaurants along the current US 69 facility.  Now I can understand a lot of that -- if they aren't part of a chain, a hotel/motel generally doesn't have the resources to simply pick up and relocate a mile or so away at a new interchange -- and there are a lot of those independent businesses along that street.  They see an effectively captive audience that given the correct circumstances will elect to stop and stay and/or eat as long as they're having to slog along the street anyway.  An alternate way of looking at that would be that the current situation provides the full measure of travelers, since everyone, commercial or recreational, using US 69 is funneled down the street; if the current street is relegated to a simple business loop of an outer freeway bypass -- regardless of big blue logo signage or a shitload of billboards in advance of the loop exit -- there will be some significant loss of business from those travelers who simply elect to stay on the freeway.  The current situation is egalitarianism of inconvenience: everyone has to run the gauntlet of current 69; there exists a calculus that infers that of the aggregate traffic some of it will stick around long enough to provide revenue.  Providing a convenient avoidance tool (the bypass, of course) more often than not would result in a decision by a potential customer under the current idiom to simply not deal with Muskogee -- period.  And those lodging and restaurant chains with capital resources will deploy facilities around the bypass interchanges and further suck revenue away from the "old road" facilities, particularly the independents.   And considering that it's more than likely most of the existing businesses are locally owned, reaction emanating from Muskogee is hardly surprising -- and apparently there's enough local clout to influence ODOT decisions.  And when it comes to favoring local residents over through commercial traffic (and the locals are voters) it's pretty much a no-brainer to the agency or their political handlers.  So unless a very generous compensation package could be offered to the businesses arrayed along US 69 (and being OK, that's probably not in the cards) any further action re a bypass likely just isn't going to happen.   
Logged

In_Correct

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 382
  • Location: TX
  • Last Login: Today at 09:51:14 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #176 on: August 28, 2019, 07:29:02 PM »

Even if businesses don't move to the frontage roads of a controlled access highway, there are GAS FOOD LODGING signs that are installed. If people need to shop at a business, they will exit.
Logged

Baloo Uriza

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1931
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Last Login: Today at 09:20:47 PM
    • Mastodon
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #177 on: August 28, 2019, 10:06:55 PM »

Quote from: sparker
So what is revealed here is that (a) ODOT is more than willing to lay down and play dead when political (read NIMBY/local revenue) opposition rears it head, and (b) they tend to hold back public info on projects, partially likely because of (a) above!

Nah, actually there is a different game involved: the two big cities in OK versus everybody else.

The US-69 corridor is in urgent need of upgrades all along the route from the Red River up to Big Cabin. But there are plenty of other highway corridors elsewhere in Oklahoma that urgently need upgrades (or just repair work) too. The state has a very limited amount of funding to spread around for all these projects. Representatives in these affected areas have to do their own bit of lobbying and campaigning just to get attention to their needs. The big cities always have highways in need of major (and very expensive) improvements. That gobbles up a hell of a lot of the highway funding pie.

So if the folks in Muskogee don't want a new freeway then ODOT is going to be only too happy to blow the money that would have been spent on that project on something else in someone else's city or town. ODOT didn't lay down and play dead for anybody.

I think the folks in Muskogee looked a gift horse in the mouth. They passed up on something that would have made US-69 a much better and safer highway through their town. They passed up on something that would have fueled new business and residential growth. Now ODOT will do something far more modest (hardly anything at all) on the existing US-69 corridor. Meanwhile the heavy truck traffic can keep putting its wear and tear on the infrastructure along the existing route.

Long term, the small cities and towns along US-69 in Oklahoma need to understand all those cars and trucks that currently use US-69 to bypass OKC and Tulsa aren't going to take that route forever. The stop lights suck. The speed traps are rage inducing and essentially a loud "F.U." to all the long distance motorists using that road. When other limited access alternatives open, like I-49 or I-69 in the next state, many are going to take their driving and their business elsewhere.

I don't even understand the logic of these folks. Freeways and turnpikes do have exits. Drivers do leave the super highways to get fuel, eat, sleep and buy stuff just like they possibly could driving along a road in town with a bunch of stop lights. If a motorist gets snagged in a town's speed trap he's not going to feel like buying shit from any business in that town. Speed traps aren't as much of a thing on super highways.

Like Breezewood, there is a highly bounded rationality in play with Muskogee -- they apparently feel backed into a corner, economically speaking, and see no recourse except to maintain the status quo regarding patronage of the motels and restaurants along the current US 69 facility.  Now I can understand a lot of that -- if they aren't part of a chain, a hotel/motel generally doesn't have the resources to simply pick up and relocate a mile or so away at a new interchange -- and there are a lot of those independent businesses along that street.

There's also a big portion of people opposed to this as it would displace them off land they already own, plus a lot of people who see the new alignment as a purely masturbatory move on ODOT's part, as business would move to the new route, inducing demand on the new route, thus negating its benefit. 
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1281
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: July 02, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #178 on: August 28, 2019, 11:57:41 PM »

There's also a big portion of people opposed to this as it would displace them off land they already own, plus a lot of people who see the new alignment as a purely masturbatory move on ODOT's part, as business would move to the new route, inducing demand on the new route, thus negating its benefit.
Demand wouldn't be induced as it already exists. The need for this real is real and that includes services-- not just the road itself. Any services moved from in the town to the new roadway are a product of an evolving town. There are many examples of successful towns like Muskogee in the vicinity of a city like Tulsa and Muskogee can find its way. I however am skeptical that this will be a detriment to businesses downtown and I believe this will be nothing but a good thing for the city. The road in town will only become more congested and polluted over time. Building the new road won't cause anymore through traffic than what will occur anyways.
Logged

Bobby5280

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2156
  • Location: Lawton, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 05:09:54 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #179 on: August 29, 2019, 12:43:29 AM »

Quote from: sparker
Like Breezewood, there is a highly bounded rationality in play with Muskogee -- they apparently feel backed into a corner, economically speaking, and see no recourse except to maintain the status quo regarding patronage of the motels and restaurants along the current US 69 facility.

Breezewood is a very different town than Muskogee. Its circumstances are very different. Breezewood would probably dry up and disappear if I-70 didn't have that NON-Interstate quality gap between its "free" section going into Maryland and the Penn Turnpike. With all the modern RFID toll tags people have, along with pay-by-plate technology, there's really no good reason for I-70 to have that gap in Breezewood anymore. What critical industry is being served by that gap in Breezewood? Last time I checked it's just a few restaurants and gas stations.

Muskogee is a bigger town. It's really a small city. Muskogee already has the Muskogee Turnpike bypassing its East side. That hasn't killed the town. Peak Blvd works like a Southern bypass for the town. It's not a freeway (a 4 lane divided expressway with freeway upgrade potential), but Peak Blvd is well South of Muskogee's downtown area. It's not killing the town. The current US-69 path runs along the West side of town. A new US-69 freeway a little farther West would have given Muskogee something close to a near freeway loop all the way around town.

Quote from: Baloo Uriza
There's also a big portion of people opposed to this as it would displace them off land they already own, plus a lot of people who see the new alignment as a purely masturbatory move on ODOT's part, as business would move to the new route, inducing demand on the new route, thus negating its benefit.

Uh, "inducing demand on the new route," otherwise known as attracting new business is part of the idea. Most small cities want to grow. They want to attract more businesses, jobs, etc to improve the local economy. The big positive about a US-69 freeway on the West side of town is that it would pull a lot of heavy trucks off local streets, making those local streets last longer and make them safer for the cars using them.
Logged

In_Correct

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 382
  • Location: TX
  • Last Login: Today at 09:51:14 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #180 on: August 29, 2019, 03:35:48 AM »

There's also a big portion of people opposed to this as it would displace them off land they already own, plus a lot of people who see the new alignment as a purely masturbatory move on ODOT's part, as business would move to the new route, inducing demand on the new route, thus negating its benefit.
Demand wouldn't be induced as it already exists. The need for this real is real and that includes services-- not just the road itself. Any services moved from in the town to the new roadway are a product of an evolving town. There are many examples of successful towns like Muskogee in the vicinity of a city like Tulsa and Muskogee can find its way. I however am skeptical that this will be a detriment to businesses downtown and I believe this will be nothing but a good thing for the city. The road in town will only become more congested and polluted over time. Building the new road won't cause anymore through traffic than what will occur anyways.

It would not negate its benefit. The new road would be a dual carriage way with bridges and ramps. The businesses would be a safe distance on frontage roads. The denizens of Muskogee worry about lack of exposure to highway traffic. And even if a business did lose exposure to highway traffic, they would still get plenty of business from citizens of Muskogee. Muskogee is not Stringtown.

Quote from: sparker
Like Breezewood, there is a highly bounded rationality in play with Muskogee -- they apparently feel backed into a corner, economically speaking, and see no recourse except to maintain the status quo regarding patronage of the motels and restaurants along the current US 69 facility.

Breezewood is a very different town than Muskogee. Its circumstances are very different. Breezewood would probably dry up and disappear if I-70 didn't have that NON-Interstate quality gap between its "free" section going into Maryland and the Penn Turnpike. With all the modern RFID toll tags people have, along with pay-by-plate technology, there's really no good reason for I-70 to have that gap in Breezewood anymore. What critical industry is being served by that gap in Breezewood? Last time I checked it's just a few restaurants and gas stations.

Muskogee is a bigger town. It's really a small city. Muskogee already has the Muskogee Turnpike bypassing its East side. That hasn't killed the town. Peak Blvd works like a Southern bypass for the town. It's not a freeway (a 4 lane divided expressway with freeway upgrade potential), but Peak Blvd is well South of Muskogee's downtown area. It's not killing the town. The current US-69 path runs along the West side of town. A new US-69 freeway a little farther West would have given Muskogee something close to a near freeway loop all the way around town.

Quote from: Baloo Uriza
There's also a big portion of people opposed to this as it would displace them off land they already own, plus a lot of people who see the new alignment as a purely masturbatory move on ODOT's part, as business would move to the new route, inducing demand on the new route, thus negating its benefit.

Uh, "inducing demand on the new route," otherwise known as attracting new business is part of the idea. Most small cities want to grow. They want to attract more businesses, jobs, etc to improve the local economy. The big positive about a US-69 freeway on the West side of town is that it would pull a lot of heavy trucks off local streets, making those local streets last longer and make them safer for the cars using them.

Then ODOT better install bridges and ramps for Peak Boulevard before Muskogee develops that area. I wonder how much Muskogee would object to ODOT building spot upgrades for Peak Boulevard.


Logged

Baloo Uriza

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1931
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Last Login: Today at 09:20:47 PM
    • Mastodon
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #181 on: August 29, 2019, 07:53:07 AM »

Uh, "inducing demand on the new route," otherwise known as attracting new business is part of the idea. Most small cities want to grow.

Grow.  Like, actually grow.  Not spread out artificially because a road moved arbitrarily and bulldozed an existing neighborhood.  Adding yet another expressway isn't going to stop a downward population trend happening since 1980.  Muskogee's unattractive to people and business for reasons a freeway won't even begin to address.
Logged

rte66man

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1261
  • Location: Warr Acres, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 07:54:19 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #182 on: August 29, 2019, 09:37:00 AM »

« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 02:44:01 PM by rte66man »
Logged
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1281
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: July 02, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #183 on: August 29, 2019, 05:15:56 PM »

Grow.  Like, actually grow.  Not spread out artificially because a road moved arbitrarily and bulldozed an existing neighborhood.
I don't think there is a neighborhood on the proposed route and this this growth is organic growth. There is more to cities than just building for the city itself directly. Cities have to address regional and national needs-- that is what this road does while benefiting the city at the same time.

Adding yet another expressway isn't going to stop a downward population trend happening since 1980.  Muskogee's unattractive to people and business for reasons a freeway won't even begin to address.
You have no way of knowing that! This freeway will open up new opportunities that didn't exist before. There is no non-tolled freeway in Muskogee. This would allow for new businesses to consider locations along the proposed freeway AND allowing more opportunities for downtown to "right-size" the streets possibly adding bike lanes or other improvements if a reduction in lanes are warranted.

What is also important to remember is this freeway in no way shape or form will be negative for the city. It will better the US-69 corridor as a whole which will be a positive. Why are you arguing against this? You would rather see no change, trucks and through traffic continuing to go straight through downtown causing unnecessary congestion and pollution?
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1281
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: July 02, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #184 on: August 29, 2019, 05:19:06 PM »


Bobby was spot on. Why should ODOT spend its scanty resources on a road wit that much opposition when there are other worthy project that could be advanced.
Because this isn't just about Muskogee, it is about the US-69 corridor which is a heavily used road and Oklahoma would be wise to get on the ball or risk loosing out to Arkansas if and when I-49 and I-69 are fully built. If Muskogee is causing that much of an issue then fuck them. Move the corridor out of the town completely. I am sure there is another town that would gladly take it. Decommission the road through the town and turn over maintenance to the county or tear it out. If they want to be assholes then treat them like it.  :spin:
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7023
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:53:26 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #185 on: August 29, 2019, 05:28:10 PM »

^^^^^^^^^^^
It's not Muskogee at large that would "dry up and blow away" if a US 69 bypass were built -- just the road-related businesses along the current arterial stretch in the west part of town.  According to the maps and diagrams I've seen about the likely alignment of such a bypass, it appears to be deliberately configured to take as few developed properties as possible -- so the notion of someone living "near" that alignment (as mentioned in one of the cited articles) actually being required to move is a bit misleading -- now if they choose to move because of increased noise, etc. -- then that's a separate story -- a freeway generally affecting a specific area rather than prompting an application of eminent domain.  It's also interesting to note that Muskogee officials' objection to the project is its extended developmental timeframe -- apparently their preference is that if it is to be constructed, the sooner the better so the city can plan and deploy any physical adjustments, getting those out of the way so some semblance of normality would be restored.  It's more the citizenry that objects to the bypass rather than the city itself, which appears at least resigned to the fact that it will eventually happen.  Also, the fact that the governor vetoed a bill that would have given cities effective veto power over state highway projects -- despite the backing from her own party -- indicates that ODOT may be down but not out in regards to US 69.  But it seems as if it's more than a few folks living along the route that don't want any alteration from the status quo, not the public entities such as cities and counties.  My guess is that while the Muskogee bypass is dormant for now, it eventually will be revived, particularly if other freeway segments start cropping up along the 69 corridor. 
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1281
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: July 02, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #186 on: August 29, 2019, 06:33:48 PM »

My guess is that while the Muskogee bypass is dormant for now, it eventually will be revived, particularly if other freeway segments start cropping up along the 69 corridor.
I suspect this is the case. OkDOT has shelved it for now. In this area they should focus on the US-75/I-44 interchange before the Muskogee Bypass.
Logged

Bobby5280

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2156
  • Location: Lawton, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 05:09:54 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #187 on: August 29, 2019, 09:14:37 PM »

I think a completed I-57 from Little Rock to Sikeston would pull a lot of traffic in Texas bound for the Northeast US completely off the US-69 corridor. The traffic shift might be enough to that a lot of the road side businesses in Atoka and Stringtown would be seeing fewer vehicles and fewer customers. Same goes for the tin horn speed trap operations. I-57 would be a thru route from Dallas to Chicago with Little Rock being the only big city along the path. It bypasses St Louis, which a good number of drivers would like considering the current level of crime in the St Louis metro.

I think if I-57 gets completed well ahead of a possible US-69 conversion the folks in Atoka and Stringtown won't ever have to worry about a US-69 freeway bypassing their towns ever again. But they won't get to base much, if any, of their local business on the highway economy either. Various shops next to the highway will close.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3994
  • Last Login: Today at 10:24:25 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #188 on: August 29, 2019, 11:17:29 PM »

I think a completed I-57 from Little Rock to Sikeston would pull a lot of traffic in Texas bound for the Northeast US completely off the US-69 corridor. The traffic shift might be enough to that a lot of the road side businesses in Atoka and Stringtown would be seeing fewer vehicles and fewer customers. Same goes for the tin horn speed trap operations. I-57 would be a thru route from Dallas to Chicago with Little Rock being the only big city along the path. It bypasses St Louis, which a good number of drivers would like considering the current level of crime in the St Louis metro.

I don't recall St. Louis having that many expressway shootings compared to Chicagoland - or have I just not been hearing about them?

I think if I-57 gets completed well ahead of a possible US-69 conversion the folks in Atoka and Stringtown won't ever have to worry about a US-69 freeway bypassing their towns ever again. But they won't get to base much, if any, of their local business on the highway economy either. Various shops next to the highway will close.

I am not so sure.  Using Google (albeit with today's facilities), from just north of the Circle Interchange on I-90/I-94 to I-35E just south of I-30 in Dallas I get 968 miles/13 hours 59 minutes via I-57, I-55, I-40 and I-30.  Going via US 60 to Poplar Bluff, then down is 958 miles/14 hours 7 minutes.  The I-55 - I-44 - US 69 - US 75 route comes in at 925 miles/14 hours 17 minutes.  Unless Arkansas builds I-57 on a very straight route (doubtful based on highway planning these days), there's not going to be much additional savings distance wise.

Now if the origin was on I-290 just south of the I-90 cloverleaf in Schaumburg, the I-44/US 69/US 75 option begins having an advantage time-wise per Google.

Then there's still going to be users of the US 69 corridor coming from/going to Kansas City and beyond. 
Logged

Scott5114

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8995
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Norman, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 09:32:44 PM
    • Denexa 100% Plastic Playing Cards
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #189 on: August 30, 2019, 03:27:44 AM »

My guess is that while the Muskogee bypass is dormant for now, it eventually will be revived, particularly if other freeway segments start cropping up along the 69 corridor.
I suspect this is the case. OkDOT has shelved it for now. In this area they should focus on the US-75/I-44 interchange before the Muskogee Bypass.

Tulsa is in ODOT Division 8, Muskogee is Division 1.
Logged

dfwmapper

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 678
  • Location: DFW
  • Last Login: May 24, 2020, 09:38:25 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #190 on: August 30, 2019, 06:18:23 AM »

I am not so sure.  Using Google (albeit with today's facilities), from just north of the Circle Interchange on I-90/I-94 to I-35E just south of I-30 in Dallas I get 968 miles/13 hours 59 minutes via I-57, I-55, I-40 and I-30.  Going via US 60 to Poplar Bluff, then down is 958 miles/14 hours 7 minutes.  The I-55 - I-44 - US 69 - US 75 route comes in at 925 miles/14 hours 17 minutes.  Unless Arkansas builds I-57 on a very straight route (doubtful based on highway planning these days), there's not going to be much additional savings distance wise.

Now if the origin was on I-290 just south of the I-90 cloverleaf in Schaumburg, the I-44/US 69/US 75 option begins having an advantage time-wise per Google.

Then there's still going to be users of the US 69 corridor coming from/going to Kansas City and beyond.
US 67 north of Walnut Ridge is much worse than US 69 in Oklahoma. South of Pocahontas it's mostly a 60mph Arkansas expressway, and north it's a 55mph 2 lane road, and Pocahontas and Corning are annoying to get through. Upgrading along the same route to a 70/75mph interstate would be a huge improvement, and skipping Pocahontas entirely and paralleling the railroad would be even better. If and when the upgrade is complete, all Dallas-Chicago traffic is making the switch, and Dallas-Milwaukee you flip a coin whether it's better to reach I-39 via the all-Interstate Little Rock/I-57/I-55/I-255/I-55 and live with the backtrack on I-55 or go more direct via US 69/I-44/I-270/I-55 and live with Oklahoma.
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13282
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 05:13:35 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #191 on: August 30, 2019, 02:55:47 PM »



for even going 1 mile over to raise revenue.

Cite your source?

A LEO can technically pull you over for that, no?

Yes they can.  I wasn't doubting that.  What I'm doubting is his assertion that people are actually being pulled over for 1 over the limit.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1281
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: July 02, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #192 on: August 30, 2019, 03:20:56 PM »



for even going 1 mile over to raise revenue.

Cite your source?

A LEO can technically pull you over for that, no?

Yes they can.  I wasn't doubting that.  What I'm doubting is his assertion that people are actually being pulled over for 1 over the limit.
That would be insane. I was pulled over for doing 7MPH over the limit once in Arcadia and I politely asked the cop if pulling people over for this small of a speed variance is the norm and he replied yes but typically they will issue only warnings. Usually they pull people over to see if they are DUI.
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13282
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 05:13:35 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #193 on: August 30, 2019, 03:30:25 PM »

I was once on the turnpike west of Tulsa, and a turnpike highway patrol officer was going exactly the speed limit in the left lane.  I crept up alongside him in the right lane at 1 mph over the limit.  He revved his engine a few times, looked at me, and pointed to his radar device.  I slowed down.  Then he jumped over two lanes to take the next exit.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1281
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: July 02, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #194 on: August 30, 2019, 04:02:53 PM »

I was once on the turnpike west of Tulsa, and a turnpike highway patrol officer was going exactly the speed limit in the left lane.  I crept up alongside him in the right lane at 1 mph over the limit.  He revved his engine a few times, looked at me, and pointed to his radar device.  I slowed down.  Then he jumped over two lanes to take the next exit.
For some reason I have bad luck with tickets and troopers in NE part of OK.
Logged

Revive 755

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3994
  • Last Login: Today at 10:24:25 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #195 on: August 30, 2019, 06:48:37 PM »

At any rate, I know many I've talked to are opposed to this, but I would like to see a ban on muni police patrolling interstates or highways(controlled access highways) as well as Sheriff's on incorporated areas. This would prevent over policing and shift resources to areas needed more than just cracking down on speeding.

Could be worse, such as Iowa where the locals put speed cameras on the interstates, with Le Claire possibly putting one on I-80 near the Illinois border (watch it be at the bottom of the descent into the Mississippi River valley). 

Though for Illinois, is there already some prohibition of this type?  For the past several years the only village/city police cars I have seen on the interstates have been Troy on I-55/I-70 (usually south of IL 162).
Logged

Bobby5280

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2156
  • Location: Lawton, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 05:09:54 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #196 on: September 02, 2019, 09:28:24 PM »

Quote from: Revive 755
I don't recall St. Louis having that many expressway shootings compared to Chicagoland - or have I just not been hearing about them?

I don't know about highway shootings, but overall St Louis has been the most dangerous large US city for the past few years on a per capita basis. In the murders per 100,000 population figure St Louis has a ratio of around 60 per 100,000, which is freaking terrible. Chicago is rough, but has around half that rate. New York City has a murder rate of about 3 per 100,000 (in 2018 NYC had fewer than 300 murders in the 5 boroughs, which have 8.5 million people).

Anyway St Louis is a major junction point in the highway system. Lots of people stop there to eat, sleep, fuel-up, etc. But it's risky doing so.

Quote from: Revive 755
I am not so sure.  Using Google (albeit with today's facilities), from just north of the Circle Interchange on I-90/I-94 to I-35E just south of I-30 in Dallas I get 968 miles/13 hours 59 minutes via I-57, I-55, I-40 and I-30.  Going via US 60 to Poplar Bluff, then down is 958 miles/14 hours 7 minutes.  The I-55 - I-44 - US 69 - US 75 route comes in at 925 miles/14 hours 17 minutes.  Unless Arkansas builds I-57 on a very straight route (doubtful based on highway planning these days), there's not going to be much additional savings distance wise.

Even if there is no substantial mileage savings plenty of drivers, be they commercial drivers or otherwise, will stick to the Interstates even if they go substantially out of their way. If the usual route has lots of speed zones and speed traps, which US-69 in Southern OK absolutely does, they will really really want to use an alternate all-Interstate route.

Quote from: Revive 755
Then there's still going to be users of the US 69 corridor coming from/going to Kansas City and beyond.

For Kansas City a lot of drivers will just stay on I-35 and avoid the stop lights and speed traps of US-69 completely.
Logged

rte66man

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1261
  • Location: Warr Acres, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 07:54:19 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #197 on: September 02, 2019, 10:36:32 PM »

I was once on the turnpike west of Tulsa, and a turnpike highway patrol officer was going exactly the speed limit in the left lane.  I crept up alongside him in the right lane at 1 mph over the limit.  He revved his engine a few times, looked at me, and pointed to his radar device.  I slowed down.  Then he jumped over two lanes to take the next exit.
For some reason I have bad luck with tickets and troopers in NE part of OK.

You made "The List" (thanks to Chris Jericho)  :bigass:
Logged
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

captkirk_4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 84
  • Location: Champaign Illinois
  • Last Login: Today at 09:13:55 AM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #198 on: September 03, 2019, 08:38:28 AM »

for even going 1 mile over to raise revenue.

Cite your source?

Scuttlebut from a guy I work with from Paducah who knows the area and warned me before driving that route. I know it is very bad because I've driven through there 5 times and each trip I see a minimum of at least 3 county patrols with someone stopped. Last time I slowed to 67 and was slowly passed by a car with Texas plates, couldn't have been going much over 73-75 and five minutes later he was pulled over.

You forget that it's not about safety but revenue, they are highwaymen running a revenue operation, they seem to work nonstop, as soon as one stop is over the lights go on immediately to tax the next one going through. Cairo is a desolate abandoned town with no economic base, I went into the town itself to the meeting of the rivers and there are signs reminding the few denizens left to keep their lawns under control due to "rodents and snakes." Looks like the overgrown ruins of Pripyat outside Chernobyl. Stringtown on 69 is the one I see warnings about, but the 3 times I drove through the active speed trap I saw was around Caney.
Logged

rte66man

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1261
  • Location: Warr Acres, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 07:54:19 PM
Re: US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma
« Reply #199 on: September 03, 2019, 09:52:08 AM »

OK-7 between Duncan and I-35 was improved a little bit. It has a Super-2 grade and wide enough ROW for 4-laning from US-81 to just West of Ratliff City.

When OK7 was plowed through Duncan just south of Bois d'arc in the early 70's, it temporarily ended just east of the Halliburton manufacturing facility with ramps and an embankment that indicated the intent was to make the extension east to Velma a freeway.  When it was finally extended, they came in and flattened the embankment to create a regular intersection with Oklahoma Hills Drive.


Quote
An extension from OK-7 up to US-81 in Marlow is in the works.

Always rumored but I've never seen any plans.
Logged
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.