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Author Topic: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?  (Read 2632 times)

Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2018, 11:04:07 AM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.


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PHLBOS

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2018, 11:09:53 AM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.
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Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2018, 11:12:39 AM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.

So maybe a bypass of 95 & 476 should be created. “Thru traffic & local traffic” as Delaware would put it the BGS’s


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2018, 11:37:54 AM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.

Namely the people that protested so fiercely against the project were the same ones using it, quickly clogging it up.

Also, no doubt bad traffic estimates were done just to appease everyone.

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.

So maybe a bypass of 95 & 476 should be created. “Thru traffic & local traffic” as Delaware would put it the BGS’s

A bypass of I-95 was created.  It's called I-295.  Also, see "NJ Turnpike".

I-476 took decades to complete.  There's no land available to create a bypass of a bypass.

Face it, if they can't get the support to widen a highway by one lane, they're not building an entirely separate highway.
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Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2018, 11:44:58 AM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.

Namely the people that protested so fiercely against the project were the same ones using it, quickly clogging it up.

Also, no doubt bad traffic estimates were done just to appease everyone.

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.

So maybe a bypass of 95 & 476 should be created. “Thru traffic & local traffic” as Delaware would put it the BGS’s

A bypass of I-95 was created.  It's called I-295.  Also, see "NJ Turnpike".

I-476 took decades to complete.  There's no land available to create a bypass of a bypass.

Face it, if they can't get the support to widen a highway by one lane, they're not building an entirely separate highway.

Making a bypass in NJ & thinking that the people in this area will cross over at The commodore or Delaware memorial is not good planning. Its great if you’re going to NY or far up Pa & don’t wanna get stuck in Delaware/Pa traffic. But the people in the Tri-state area should have a free flowing highway to get from work & home. That stretch of highway from the Delaware Line to 476 is the reason why economic success hasn’t occurred in this area. Maybe its a plot to keep everyone in Philly or Delaware.


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Beltway

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2018, 11:46:52 AM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.

PennDOT and the localities formulated a consent decree in 1985 for the completion of I-476, and that is where the highway design was downscaled from 6 lanes to 4 lanes between McDade Blvd. and PA-3 West Chester Pike. 

A consent decree like this has been utilized in several other places as well, and while it is not legislation or law, it is a binding formal agreement and even after 30 years time passage the DOTs don't want to abandon the decree (which would be performed formally by resolutions of the state transportation board).
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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2018, 11:54:09 AM »

What is with these errors on the Wikipedia Interstate 476 page?

At its opening in the early 1970's, I-476 was a 4 mile long, 4-lane spur expressway connecting the Schuylkill Expressway with the Pennsylvania Turnpike in Plymouth Meeting. It significantly helped reduce congestion through King of Prussia and the Schuylkill Expressway as it provided a more direct link from the Main Line suburbs to the Northern suburbs and New Jersey.

I-476 was widened to 6 lanes between I-76 and I-276 in 1990-1992 in anticipation of the Northeast Extension construction.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2018, 12:20:45 PM »

Making a bypass in NJ & thinking that the people in this area will cross over at The commodore or Delaware memorial is not good planning. Its great if you’re going to NY or far up Pa & don’t wanna get stuck in Delaware/Pa traffic. But the people in the Tri-state area should have a free flowing highway to get from work & home. That stretch of highway from the Delaware Line to 476 is the reason why economic success hasn’t occurred in this area. Maybe its a plot to keep everyone in Philly or Delaware.

You're starting to ignore history here. 

I-95 was supposed to go from Wilmington thru Philly and PA then thru NJ.  I-295 was a bypass from Wilmington to Trenton, and would've met up with I-95 in NJ, which ultimately never got built.

Numerous other interstate highways were planned in and around Philly, most of which weren't built.

The Commodore Barry Bridge didn't open until about 10 years after I-295 was being constructed, so that had no influence in the planning at the time.

I-95 has nothing to do with the lack of economic success in the area.  I-95 flows relatively well during the day.The Schuylkill Expressway is jammed up way longer during the day, yet that area is doing pretty well.

And 'Home' and 'Work' is subjective.  They could build another highway, but if it's too far away for you, it's not going to help anyway.
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PHLBOS

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.
Within a year after that highway opened; it was already exceeding its then-projected 20-year traffic counts.

Namely the people that protested so fiercely against the project were the same ones using it, quickly clogging it up.
One word describes that: Hypocrites.

Also where were they when all the massive development was being planned/built along the primary feeder roads (Mac Dade Blvd., Baltimore Pike, West Chester Pike) to I-476 decades prior to it being completed & open to traffic?

What is with these errors on the Wikipedia Interstate 476 page?
Somebody (the one who supplied the edited entry) obviously is very confused & doesn't have their facts straight.
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Beltway

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2018, 01:57:34 PM »

Numerous other interstate highways were planned in and around Philly, most of which weren't built.

The main ones were built, only local connectors I-695 and I-895 were not built. 

I-76, I-276, I-476, I-676, I-95, I-295.

Granted the I-76 Surekill Expressway is woefully outdated and should have been upgraded decades ago, but unlike the other large northeastern cities, Philadelphia got their mainline Interstates completed, plus Delaware and New Jersey built two superhighway bypasses of the city.
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ekt8750

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 02:30:54 PM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.


iPhone

Oh you haven't heard? They're talking about half-assing it by opening up the shoulders on the southern portion just like they're considering for the Schuylkill. I mean of you're going to go that far, in the Blue Route's case, just lay down the pavement for the 3rd lanes.
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PHLBOS

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 02:33:15 PM »

Numerous other interstate highways were planned in and around Philly, most of which weren't built.

The main ones were built, only local connectors I-695 and I-895 were not built. 

I-76, I-276, I-476, I-676, I-95, I-295.
Do keep in mind that both I-476 & I-676 were not only the late-comers with regards to full completion; for a while, it seemed that neither of the two were to be completed.
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Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2018, 02:40:25 PM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.


iPhone

Oh you haven't heard? They're talking about half-assing it by opening up the shoulders on the southern portion just like they're considering for the Schuylkill. I mean of you're going to go that far, in the Blue Route's case, just lay down the pavement for the 3rd lanes.
Just drove thru I-476 to exit 13. I see why they will just use the shoulder. They will have to undo miles of the wall or inside barrier & both seems like a shitty job.


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Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2018, 02:51:44 PM »

Numerous other interstate highways were planned in and around Philly, most of which weren't built.

The main ones were built, only local connectors I-695 and I-895 were not built. 

I-76, I-276, I-476, I-676, I-95, I-295.
Do keep in mind that both I-476 & I-676 were not only the late-comers with regards to full completion; for a while, it seemed that neither of the two were to be completed.

I would assume that is because these highways had to be literally cut through rocks. & to think that expansion in the future was not necessary then. This is the reason why all our roads & infrastructure is failing now.


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Beltway

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2018, 02:53:38 PM »

The main ones were built, only local connectors I-695 and I-895 were not built. 
I-76, I-276, I-476, I-676, I-95, I-295.
Do keep in mind that both I-476 & I-676 were not only the late-comers with regards to full completion; for a while, it seemed that neither of the two were to be completed.

True, but (was it) Governor Richard Thornburg (1979-1987) that got the 5 threatened Interstate segments built?

I-476, I-676, I-279 Parkway North, I-78 A-B-E bypass, and last mile of I-79.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2018, 02:55:14 PM »

PennDOT clearly designed the southern half of the Blue Route for a future widening into the median, though I don't think there have been any serious talks to actually do it yet.
Something should happen. I-476 is extremely over capacity during rush hours. & If Pa thinks the signals on the ramps will solve the problem they wont. They are already failing now.


iPhone

Oh you haven't heard? They're talking about half-assing it by opening up the shoulders on the southern portion just like they're considering for the Schuylkill. I mean of you're going to go that far, in the Blue Route's case, just lay down the pavement for the 3rd lanes.

"Laying down pavement" is like saying "I'll paint the new wall".  You still need framing, electrical working, piping, drywall, spackle, etc before you ever get to the final surface to paint. 

What appears to be a simple lane addition is never that simple because of all the work that is needed to be done underneath the surface that you drive one.  It's also why it normally takes a few years to construct a new lane, especially when it's done next to a live traffic lane.

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jeffandnicole

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2018, 03:11:02 PM »

Numerous other interstate highways were planned in and around Philly, most of which weren't built.

The main ones were built, only local connectors I-695 and I-895 were not built. 

I-76, I-276, I-476, I-676, I-95, I-295.


That's only Interstate Highways that officially got on the books.  Read up on The Piedmont Expressway, which would've followed roughly the US 202 corridor and served as an additional bypass.
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Beltway

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2018, 03:24:22 PM »

Numerous other interstate highways were planned in and around Philly, most of which weren't built.
The main ones were built, only local connectors I-695 and I-895 were not built. 
I-76, I-276, I-476, I-676, I-95, I-295.
That's only Interstate Highways that officially got on the books.  Read up on The Piedmont Expressway, which would've followed roughly the US 202 corridor and served as an additional bypass.

I am aware of the US-202 Expressway, planned to connect the Betzwood Bridge to the US-202 Delaware River bridge at New Hope, PA.  Not planned to be part of the Interstate System.
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Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2018, 11:13:13 PM »




Could you imagine if 476 was built like how it was supposed to. Then we would have a free flowing highway. But that curve on the 2nd to last pic would have caused accidents & many people would have accidentally merged onto the penna turnpike.


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Beltway

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2018, 11:57:58 PM »

Could you imagine if 476 was built like how it was supposed to. Then we would have a free flowing highway. But that curve on the 2nd to last pic would have caused accidents & many people would have accidentally merged onto the penna turnpike.

I saw this study report when I lived in the area in the 1970s.  Yes those interchanges would have handled traffic much better, and the mainline would have been 6 lanes thruout.

That 2nd to last plate was PennDOT's design to connect I-476 to the Plymouth Meeting interchange with the Turnpike, if they could not come to an agreement with the Turnpike Commission to build the direct interchange with the Turnpike mainline.  I thought it was a horrible design when I first saw it.  At least that interchange did get built to a very ample design.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 12:00:06 AM by Beltway »
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Tonytone

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2018, 12:50:29 AM »

Could you imagine if 476 was built like how it was supposed to. Then we would have a free flowing highway. But that curve on the 2nd to last pic would have caused accidents & many people would have accidentally merged onto the penna turnpike.

I saw this study report when I lived in the area in the 1970s.  Yes those interchanges would have handled traffic much better, and the mainline would have been 6 lanes thruout.

That 2nd to last plate was PennDOT's design to connect I-476 to the Plymouth Meeting interchange with the Turnpike, if they could not come to an agreement with the Turnpike Commission to build the direct interchange with the Turnpike mainline.  I thought it was a horrible design when I first saw it.  At least that interchange did get built to a very ample design.
This is very intriguing. How can great plans like this. Turn to what we have now. (Nimbys)? I swear people treat highways like they are local roads. The whole point of a highway is to connect places. & to be able to skip thru lights, people & traffic that you dont have to go through. America needs to get minor & major roads together.


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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2018, 03:42:43 PM »

Takeaway thoughts at each interchange:
Overall - They really had a thing for free flowing ramp terminals.
MacDade: A bit ambitious at the time but I can see it from MacDade's perspective, especially if it stayed signed as US 13 Bypass. It's pretty obvious why I-476 is now east of Crum Creek - river relocations fell out of vogue by about 1980.
Baltimore: Overkill. You have 1 and MacDade as free-flowing, this can be the diamond that it actually became.
1: I weep for the grade separations that could have been instead of a signalized volleyball. I love that the last two movements use PA 320 - really everything about this interchange complex should have been built, if I could pick one concept to bring forward.
3: Overkill again. Current interchange makes more sense. I would love to see the plates for the Lansdowne Expressway!
30: Never has there been a more wretched hive of overkill.
KOP connector: I dig. Would this have tied into the Schuylkill or paralleled it? Either way, a lot better than the extra length and traffic you have to fight to go from 76 east to 95 south via 476 now.
76: Reasonable. The current interchange seems fine also, so I'm not sure what was weighed and changed here.
PA Tpk. (options 1 and 2): So, somewhat like PA 9's north end, eh? Imagine if they couldn't even get a connection straight into PA 9, let alone the rest of the ramps at I-276? Then I totally agree with the massive accident rate that would have resulted. On the other hand, they were relying on this as a permanent connection! (It is required for the Germantown Pike movements to and from 476.) So why would the Tpk. direct interchange need EB-SB and NB-WB ramps?
Finishing thought - I'm sure some of these would have gotten revised even if I-476 were built along this alignment. This was the Cadillac design when all they needed was a Buick - and all they got was a broken down Chevy.

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2018, 04:39:40 PM »

Takeaway thoughts at each interchange:
[…]
30: Never has there been a more wretched hive of overkill.
76: Reasonable. The current interchange seems fine also, so I'm not sure what was weighed and changed here.
PA Tpk. (options 1 and 2): So, somewhat like PA 9's north end, eh?

I lived a couple miles from the proposed US-30 interchange.  Underpowered as built.  I don't think the original would have been overdesigned.  Plus it was designed to connect to a Wayne Bypass of US-30.

I-76 -- they made the WB 76 to SB 476 ramp semi-directional.  They relocated Matson Ford Road and provided full local movements with both highways.

Turnpike -- they did show tentative full connections, but they were only tentative, as the as-built layout is considerably different.  Shows that no agreement had taken place yet when that was drawn, and that they needed to try to accomodate both a temporary connection and a permanent full connection.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 04:42:12 PM by Beltway »
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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2018, 04:57:18 PM »

KOP connector: I dig. Would this have tied into the Schuylkill or paralleled it? Either way, a lot better than the extra length and traffic you have to fight to go from 76 east to 95 south via 476 now.

That's the Radnor Spur, which would've fed directly into the US 422 expressway and presumably would've been an extension of that route.

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Re: Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2018, 07:44:59 PM »

KOP connector: I dig. Would this have tied into the Schuylkill or paralleled it? Either way, a lot better than the extra length and traffic you have to fight to go from 76 east to 95 south via 476 now.
That's the Radnor Spur, which would've fed directly into the US 422 expressway and presumably would've been an extension of that route.

I searched around on the Internet but cannot find a map that shows the whole spur.  Can't find a map of the US-30 Wayne Bypass that I mentioned earlier, either. 

Anyone know of any?  It would be helpful for other people to see a picture of what was proposed.
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