Winter road trips

[jemacedo9]

Do any of the service areas along I-95 north of DC sell snow chains in the winter? Because it seems like they should.

Outside of mail trucks, I don't remember a time where I've seen tire chains used by anyone in PA or even Lake-Effect NY in since at least the 80s...and even then, only on school buses. In heavy enough snows, people either stay in or get stuck...

Whether there should be a push to encourage use of chains in the Northeast is a different question. 

[froggie]

^ It's pretty common for town road crews in Vermont to use chains on plows in the winter.  But I rarely see anyone else doing the same.

[1995hoo]

I remember when I was in the fourth grade the school buses in Fairfax County were using chains due to snow (I remember which grade I was in because of the route the bus took–I was only on that bus route for one year). Otherwise I do not believe I've ever seen chains in use around here, and I've certainly never used them.

[jeffandnicole]

Do any of the service areas along I-95 north of DC sell snow chains in the winter? Because it seems like they should.

Outside of mail trucks, I don't remember a time where I've seen tire chains used by anyone in PA or even Lake-Effect NY in since at least the 80s...and even then, only on school buses. In heavy enough snows, people either stay in or get stuck...

Whether there should be a push to encourage use of chains in the Northeast is a different question. 

If anything, I think they push people not to use chains.  They're good for rough roads that won't be plowed to the pavement.  Outside of developments, most roads in the northeast are cleared relatively quickly, and chains and blacktop don't mix well for both cars and the roadbed.

Besides, most people have never used chains.  They'll find dry pavement and attempt to go 70 mph not thinking about it.

[Flint1979]

My theory for winter road trips is to travel south. I've gone up to certain areas of northern Michigan in the winter before. I remember not too long ago on January 1st it was in the 40's for the high and I went up north and had fun that day. I try to stay away from any back country roads especially at night during the winter and tend to stick to state highways, US highways and Interstate highways. I remember about 15 years ago I was traveling south on US-23 a little south of Tawas City I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. I managed to get it out though but it took a little work. Around that same time I got stuck in a snowstorm in Detroit and was slowly trying to make my way back north I was in Detroit all night long and waited until daylight to leave. I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around that point, this was in Troy on I-75, then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway and had to rock my car up a hill and back on the highway but managed to do it. I spent the night playing Blackjack at Greektown Casino and if I remember right won a little bit.

Just keep in mind that if you're traveling in Michigan the Interstate's are top priority for snow removal. I-75 always gets top priority in my area.

[kphoger]

I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. ... I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around ... then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway

For being so passionate about how people don't know how to drive in winter conditions, you sure did spin out a lot in that one trip...
Maybe going under 80 would help?

I only encountered one situation where I felt 80 mph might be a little too fast and that was in blizzard like conditions on I-96 between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

[Flint1979]

I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. ... I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around ... then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway

For being so passionate about how people don't know how to drive in winter conditions, you sure did spin out a lot in that one trip...
Maybe going under 80 would help?

I only encountered one situation where I felt 80 mph might be a little too fast and that was in blizzard like conditions on I-96 between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

I wasn't doing 80 mph when this happened. More like about 50 mph. I have enough experience driving in the Detroit area to know that if you're doing under 80 mph on the freeways you're going to be getting tailgated. They drive crazy in Detroit and you have to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic otherwise you're going to find yourself getting ran off the road.

[jeffandnicole]

I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. ... I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around ... then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway

For being so passionate about how people don't know how to drive in winter conditions, you sure did spin out a lot in that one trip...
Maybe going under 80 would help?

I only encountered one situation where I felt 80 mph might be a little too fast and that was in blizzard like conditions on I-96 between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

I wasn't doing 80 mph when this happened. More like about 50 mph. I have enough experience driving in the Detroit area to know that if you're doing under 80 mph on the freeways you're going to be getting tailgated. They drive crazy in Detroit and you have to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic otherwise you're going to find yourself getting ran off the road.

Or spinning out and running others off the road.

Doesn't matter what speed you were going - you were going too fast if you spun once.  Do it 3 times and you're clearly a reckless driver that shouldn't be on the road at all.

[Flint1979]

I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. ... I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around ... then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway

For being so passionate about how people don't know how to drive in winter conditions, you sure did spin out a lot in that one trip...
Maybe going under 80 would help?

I only encountered one situation where I felt 80 mph might be a little too fast and that was in blizzard like conditions on I-96 between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

I wasn't doing 80 mph when this happened. More like about 50 mph. I have enough experience driving in the Detroit area to know that if you're doing under 80 mph on the freeways you're going to be getting tailgated. They drive crazy in Detroit and you have to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic otherwise you're going to find yourself getting ran off the road.

Or spinning out and running others off the road.

Doesn't matter what speed you were going - you were going too fast if you spun once.  Do it 3 times and you're clearly a reckless driver that shouldn't be on the road at all.

This was during a snowstorm I was not doing 80 mph during this snowstorm nobody was. You can talk to just about any Michigan resident and they will tell you that the normal speed on the Interstate highways in this state are around 80 mph. That is not too fast to be driving on an Interstate highway. Even the Michigan State Police don't think it's too fast as they rarely if ever pull anyone over for doing 80 mph. I pass the MSP all the time doing 80 and don't let up at all and they do nothing about it. I've even talked to a state cop years ago that said 80 is the speed you really want to travel on the highway we're not looking for those people we're looking for people doing 85 or above. There is no reason you can't travel 80 mph on I-75 in normal driving conditions. I have never once stated that I drive 80 mph when it is unsafe to do so.

[Flint1979]

On top of what I posted above, Michigan's speed limit on Interstate highways is 70 mph in urban areas, sometimes as low as 55 mph but is 75 mph in rural areas. So going 80 mph most of the time only means your going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone thinks going 80 mph on an Interstate highway is going too fast. Some Interstate's in the western part of the country have speed limits of 80 mph, is that too fast too? No way is going 80 mph too fast for an Interstate highway. There is a stretch of I-75 between 7 and 8 Mile Roads that is on a straight away where you can do over 80 mph but you'll need to slow down for the curve before 9 Mile Road going northbound, going southbound your fine until you get to the other side of the Davison where there is another curve going into Hamtramck.

[kphoger]

On top of what I posted above, Michigan's speed limit on Interstate highways is 70 mph in urban areas, sometimes as low as 55 mph but is 75 mph in rural areas. So going 80 mph most of the time only means your going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone thinks going 80 mph on an Interstate highway is going too fast. Some Interstate's in the western part of the country have speed limits of 80 mph, is that too fast too? No way is going 80 mph too fast for an Interstate highway. There is a stretch of I-75 between 7 and 8 Mile Roads that is on a straight away where you can do over 80 mph but you'll need to slow down for the curve before 9 Mile Road going northbound, going southbound your fine until you get to the other side of the Davison where there is another curve going into Hamtramck.

I drive 80 mph all the time.  Interstates around here are signed at 75 mph.  I've even driven the 85-mph stretch of TX-130.  But your posts in the past have shown that you're very reluctant to slow down from your normal cruising speed in winter weather, and that it annoys you when other drivers do.  I'm suggesting there's a correlation between that tendency and your having spun out multiple times on a winter trip.

There have been plenty of times I've been the one speeding by slow-poke drivers in winter weather.  But it's almost always been in the middle-latitude states (Kentucky, southern Missouri).  My experience is that the flow of traffic is pretty reasonable in the northern states during snowy and icy weather–such that, if you're driving much faster than they are, you're not driving safely.

[jeffandnicole]

I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. ... I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around ... then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway

For being so passionate about how people don't know how to drive in winter conditions, you sure did spin out a lot in that one trip...
Maybe going under 80 would help?

I only encountered one situation where I felt 80 mph might be a little too fast and that was in blizzard like conditions on I-96 between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

I wasn't doing 80 mph when this happened. More like about 50 mph. I have enough experience driving in the Detroit area to know that if you're doing under 80 mph on the freeways you're going to be getting tailgated. They drive crazy in Detroit and you have to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic otherwise you're going to find yourself getting ran off the road.

Or spinning out and running others off the road.

Doesn't matter what speed you were going - you were going too fast if you spun once.  Do it 3 times and you're clearly a reckless driver that shouldn't be on the road at all.

This was during a snowstorm I was not doing 80 mph during this snowstorm nobody was. You can talk to just about any Michigan resident and they will tell you that the normal speed on the Interstate highways in this state are around 80 mph. That is not too fast to be driving on an Interstate highway. Even the Michigan State Police don't think it's too fast as they rarely if ever pull anyone over for doing 80 mph. I pass the MSP all the time doing 80 and don't let up at all and they do nothing about it. I've even talked to a state cop years ago that said 80 is the speed you really want to travel on the highway we're not looking for those people we're looking for people doing 85 or above. There is no reason you can't travel 80 mph on I-75 in normal driving conditions. I have never once stated that I drive 80 mph when it is unsafe to do so.

Are you completely ignoring the fact that you spun out 3 times?  I didn't say once anything about doing 80.  I tried to tell you, which went completely over your head and almost into a light pole, that 50 mph was entirely too fast for conditions...or your driving ability.

[Flint1979]

I spun out and got my car stuck in the snow. ... I got a little north of Detroit and spun out but managed to keep my car on the highway and no other traffic was around ... then about 15 miles north I spun out again and this time came within a few feet of smashing into a pole on the highway

For being so passionate about how people don't know how to drive in winter conditions, you sure did spin out a lot in that one trip...
Maybe going under 80 would help?

I only encountered one situation where I felt 80 mph might be a little too fast and that was in blizzard like conditions on I-96 between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

I wasn't doing 80 mph when this happened. More like about 50 mph. I have enough experience driving in the Detroit area to know that if you're doing under 80 mph on the freeways you're going to be getting tailgated. They drive crazy in Detroit and you have to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic otherwise you're going to find yourself getting ran off the road.

Or spinning out and running others off the road.

Doesn't matter what speed you were going - you were going too fast if you spun once.  Do it 3 times and you're clearly a reckless driver that shouldn't be on the road at all.

This was during a snowstorm I was not doing 80 mph during this snowstorm nobody was. You can talk to just about any Michigan resident and they will tell you that the normal speed on the Interstate highways in this state are around 80 mph. That is not too fast to be driving on an Interstate highway. Even the Michigan State Police don't think it's too fast as they rarely if ever pull anyone over for doing 80 mph. I pass the MSP all the time doing 80 and don't let up at all and they do nothing about it. I've even talked to a state cop years ago that said 80 is the speed you really want to travel on the highway we're not looking for those people we're looking for people doing 85 or above. There is no reason you can't travel 80 mph on I-75 in normal driving conditions. I have never once stated that I drive 80 mph when it is unsafe to do so.

Are you completely ignoring the fact that you spun out 3 times?  I didn't say once anything about doing 80.  I tried to tell you, which went completely over your head and almost into a light pole, that 50 mph was entirely too fast for conditions...or your driving ability.

I only spun out twice. The other spin out was a totally different trip on a different day. 50 mph wasn't too fast I was following the flow of traffic and doing nothing wrong to begin with. And the pole I almost hit was a post on the side of the highway not a light pole. And my driving ability is well above the normal speeds. It was the tread on my tires that made me spin out and I got those tires replaced right after this happened.

[US 89]

The number-one rule for driving in snow is to never drive too fast for the conditions. It doesn't matter what the posted limit on the road is, or even what the flow of traffic is. If you're slipping at all, that is too fast. All those slide-offs you see whenever it snows? Those are people who went too fast and paid for it.

If you're on a snowy highway with the general traffic speed at 30 mph, and you're starting to lose traction at that speed, go slower! In addition, "driving ability" goes out the window when there's snow on the ground, because it does nothing to improve traction on the road. You might be able to handle a car better at higher speeds on dry roads, but your tires are no better than anyone else's.

[Rothman]

Wow.  So that's how reckless drivers think (Flint).

If you don't keep up, you get run off the road?  No, you don't.  If other idiots want to drive too fast for conditions, you stay to the right and they move around you.

All that spinning out must have done a number on your insurance premiums.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wow.  So that's how reckless drivers think (Flint).

If you don't keep up, you get run off the road?  No, you don't.  If other idiots want to drive too fast for conditions, you stay to the right and they move around you.

All that spinning out must have done a number on your insurance premiums.

In fairness I can attest to the dickish driving that Flint is describing in Detroit having been born and raised there.  The City is largely devoid of life and employment with freeways built for triple the current population.  Enforcement is largely non-existent and you do have to drive fast to keep up with the lightning quick pace.  That said, if conditions were bad enough to have a large degree of sliding then there plenty of solid surface alternatives like Woodward, Grand River, Telegraph, and even Michigan to get you out of the city.  Either way, doesn't pay to have short tread in snow or even copious amounts of rain. 

Michigan in the Lower Peninsula gets for the most part mild winters.  The driving populace on the whole is way too confident in their abilities which often has disastrous results.  I-96 between Detroit and Lansing was infamous for people skidding off into the snow in the median or shoulders...Grand River was so useful as an alternate.  That said, the state trunkline system gets cleared reasonably quick.  The same can't be said for local level roadways.  I recall driving to school and work often with 2 inches plus on the road...good luck getting someone to call a weather delay. 

Speaking of tires, does anyone ever switch to snow tires?   I used to have a set that was essentially for snowy conditions that I would put on my car during winter trips on the Mogollon Rim or even just the Colorado Plateau.  Back in 2013 I went through all five National Parks in Utah plus Great Basin after a large snow storm.  The only park that gave me trouble was Arches where the snow was bad enough that I opted to turn around rather than put chains on.  The Island in the Sky Road in Canyonlands had snow the entire road but having the right tires made it passable with a reasonable pace which was well below the posted 35 MPH speed limit. 

But that said, tread depth or lack there of in my personal experience tends to be virtually non-existent on any tire once you get below 5mm.

[kphoger]

In addition, "driving ability" goes out the window when there's snow on the ground, because it does nothing to improve traction on the road. You might be able to handle a car better at higher speeds on dry roads, but your tires are no better than anyone else's.

While it's true that packed snow and ice make gravity and inertia take more of a role in one's driving, I don't think it's fair to say driving ability goes out the window.  There has been a time or two when I was sliding off toward the ditch while at a full stop, and it's at that point you realize there are other forces at work than just your own driving ability.  However, getting through or out of such situations does have a lot to do with driving ability.  Being able to feather the gas pedal, steer in advance of turns, avoid obstructions without coming to a full stop, determine which roads are likely to be less dangerous than others, come out of fishtail, evaluate escape routes–these are things I'd call "driving ability."

[Flint1979]

Wow.  So that's how reckless drivers think (Flint).

If you don't keep up, you get run off the road?  No, you don't.  If other idiots want to drive too fast for conditions, you stay to the right and they move around you.

All that spinning out must have done a number on your insurance premiums.

That doesn't happen in Michigan and this is driving in Detroit. Even if you stay to the right on a Detroit freeway you're still at risk to be tailgated and almost ran off the road. They tailgate like crazy in Detroit and drive like it's the Indy 500. And it did nothing to my insurance and btw I haven't spun out since and this was at least 15 years ago.

[Flint1979]

Wow.  So that's how reckless drivers think (Flint).

If you don't keep up, you get run off the road?  No, you don't.  If other idiots want to drive too fast for conditions, you stay to the right and they move around you.

All that spinning out must have done a number on your insurance premiums.

In fairness I can attest to the dickish driving that Flint is describing in Detroit having been born and raised there.  The City is largely devoid of life and employment with freeways built for triple the current population.  Enforcement is largely non-existent and you do have to drive fast to keep up with the lightning quick pace.  That said, if conditions were bad enough to have a large degree of sliding then there plenty of solid surface alternatives like Woodward, Grand River, Telegraph, and even Michigan to get you out of the city.  Either way, doesn't pay to have short tread in snow or even copious amounts of rain. 

Michigan in the Lower Peninsula gets for the most part mild winters.  The driving populace on the whole is way too confident in their abilities which often has disastrous results.  I-96 between Detroit and Lansing was infamous for people skidding off into the snow in the median or shoulders...Grand River was so useful as an alternate.  That said, the state trunkline system gets cleared reasonably quick.  The same can't be said for local level roadways.  I recall driving to school and work often with 2 inches plus on the road...good luck getting someone to call a weather delay. 

Speaking of tires, does anyone ever switch to snow tires?   I used to have a set that was essentially for snowy conditions that I would put on my car during winter trips on the Mogollon Rim or even just the Colorado Plateau.  Back in 2013 I went through all five National Parks in Utah plus Great Basin after a large snow storm.  The only park that gave me trouble was Arches where the snow was bad enough that I opted to turn around rather than put chains on.  The Island in the Sky Road in Canyonlands had snow the entire road but having the right tires made it passable with a reasonable pace which was well below the posted 35 MPH speed limit. 

But that said, tread depth or lack there of in my personal experience tends to be virtually non-existent on any tire once you get below 5mm.

I think this all goes back to me mentioning that I drive 80 mph on Interstate highways within the state of Michigan. I drive closer to the speed limit in other states simply because I'm not familiar with a lot of other states. I'm use to driving in Detroit and as a matter of fact I'll be driving down there later today since I have to go to Wyandotte. But anyway, what you mentioned is spot on and Detroit drivers really drive like they don't have a care in the world. Only other city that I found equally as bad as Detroit driving wise was Boston possibly even worse with the narrow streets and traffic in Boston.

As far as my tires go, I wasn't aware that the tires on my car were as bad as they were. I figured out that they were bad on the second spin out which was just south of the Palace of Auburn Hills before that curve going north. The first spin out happened in Troy between 14 Mile and Rochester Road.

[adwerkema]

Michigan in the Lower Peninsula gets for the most part mild winters.

As a whole, the Lower Peninsula does get mild winters. However, west of M-66, I'd consider winters on the more extreme side. Lake Michigan's lake effect snow doubles - and in some areas triples - the annual snowfall. Muskegon, for example, gets an annual average of 87 inches of snow. Detroit averages 32 inches of snow.

The same can probably be said about other states downwind from a Great Lake.

The driving populace on the whole is way too confident in their abilities which often has disastrous results. 

I agree wholeheartedly. This explains the countless pileups on I-94 every winter. I recall 4 distinct 30+ vehicle pileups last winter. Not to mention the 193 vehicle pileup of 2015. It always seems to be I-94 that gets pileups...

[Flint1979]

January and February Michigan gets temps that are in the single digits and below zero but other than that really the temps are more mild.

Like Muskegon gets an average of 93.7 inches of snow a year with the worst months being December and January and with February being slightly better but still a lot of snow that month too. You can get snow anywhere between November and April.

Grand Rapids gets 74.9 inches of snow on average a year. Grand Rapids is about 40 miles inland of course.

Lansing gets 51.1 inches a year. Detroit gets 42.5 inches a year. Flint gets 47.4 inches a year. Saginaw gets 41.5 inches a year.

So basically Detroit, Flint and Saginaw all get roughly half the snow that Muskegon does. That is indeed due to the lake effect snow coming off Lake Michigan.

Now for the cake, Marquette gets 117.2 inches a year with January alone getting almost as much as Detroit and Saginaw do in a year. Houghton gets 100 inches more than Marquette does, 217.9 inches for Houghton. So this is proof that the U.P. just gets flat out hammered by winter weather. Sault Ste. Marie gets around the same as Marquette. But Escanaba gets 49.5 inches more on par with the cities I mentioned in the Lower Peninsula. All the cities I mentioned that are over 100 inches are on Lake Superior and Escanaba is in the southern part of the U.P.

[Max Rockatansky]

Michigan in the Lower Peninsula gets for the most part mild winters.

As a whole, the Lower Peninsula does get mild winters. However, west of M-66, I'd consider winters on the more extreme side. Lake Michigan's lake effect snow doubles - and in some areas triples - the annual snowfall. Muskegon, for example, gets an annual average of 87 inches of snow. Detroit averages 32 inches of snow.

The same can probably be said about other states downwind from a Great Lake.

The driving populace on the whole is way too confident in their abilities which often has disastrous results. 

I agree wholeheartedly. This explains the countless pileups on I-94 every winter. I recall 4 distinct 30+ vehicle pileups last winter. Not to mention the 193 vehicle pileup of 2015. It always seems to be I-94 that gets pileups...

The problem with I-94 is that it is the primary route between Detroit and Chicago, it definitely doesn't help it dips towards Lake Michigan.  Those I-94 wrecks are old news, I've seen a story or two a year on them the entirety I've been alive. 

To your point the closer you are to Lake Michigan the more snow you'll get from Lake Effect.  My family has a cabin up on M-22 just north of Traverse City.  December and January are infamously bad with close to 20 inches annually for those two months.  That said the bulk of the populace in Michigan is situated in the southeast part of the Lower Peninsula right in that sweet spot for a mild winter.

Interestingly enough chain controls only have a narrow legal use in Michigan and studded tires are outright prohibited on roadways:

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-52374-205115--F,00.html

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9632_12967_52374-205116--,00.html

[Brandon]

Now for the cake, Marquette gets 117.2 inches a year with January alone getting almost as much as Detroit and Saginaw do in a year. Houghton gets 100 inches more than Marquette does, 217.9 inches for Houghton. So this is proof that the U.P. just gets flat out hammered by winter weather. Sault Ste. Marie gets around the same as Marquette. But Escanaba gets 49.5 inches more on par with the cities I mentioned in the Lower Peninsula. All the cities I mentioned that are over 100 inches are on Lake Superior and Escanaba is in the southern part of the U.P.

And I can verify that Yoopers do not drive any slower than their Troll cousins.  70 is quite common on the two-lanes during the summer months.  And places such as Houghton do not plow to pavement, yet drivers still manage to get up to the speed limit (or better) anyway.

[US 89]

In addition, "driving ability" goes out the window when there's snow on the ground, because it does nothing to improve traction on the road. You might be able to handle a car better at higher speeds on dry roads, but your tires are no better than anyone else's.

While it's true that packed snow and ice make gravity and inertia take more of a role in one's driving, I don't think it's fair to say driving ability goes out the window.  There has been a time or two when I was sliding off toward the ditch while at a full stop, and it's at that point you realize there are other forces at work than just your own driving ability.  However, getting through or out of such situations does have a lot to do with driving ability.  Being able to feather the gas pedal, steer in advance of turns, avoid obstructions without coming to a full stop, determine which roads are likely to be less dangerous than others, come out of fishtail, evaluate escape routes–these are things I'd call "driving ability."

But see, that's a totally different form of driving ability, and I don't think that was what Flint meant when he said that the first time. While that does count as driving ability, it's really more of a "drive safe and smart".

Also, you've just hit on the number-two rule in snowy weather, which is to never come to a complete stop, especially on an uphill. Even if your car has 4WD, if you stop for whatever reason, you're unlikely to get going forward again.

[Max Rockatansky]

In addition, "driving ability" goes out the window when there's snow on the ground, because it does nothing to improve traction on the road. You might be able to handle a car better at higher speeds on dry roads, but your tires are no better than anyone else's.

While it's true that packed snow and ice make gravity and inertia take more of a role in one's driving, I don't think it's fair to say driving ability goes out the window.  There has been a time or two when I was sliding off toward the ditch while at a full stop, and it's at that point you realize there are other forces at work than just your own driving ability.  However, getting through or out of such situations does have a lot to do with driving ability.  Being able to feather the gas pedal, steer in advance of turns, avoid obstructions without coming to a full stop, determine which roads are likely to be less dangerous than others, come out of fishtail, evaluate escape routes–these are things I'd call "driving ability."

But see, that's a totally different form of driving ability, and I don't think that was what Flint meant when he said that the first time. While that does count as driving ability, it's really more of a "drive safe and smart".

Also, you've just hit on the number-two rule in snowy weather, which is to never come to a complete stop, especially on an uphill. Even if your car has 4WD, if you stop for whatever reason, you're unlikely to get going forward again.

That's what I was getting at with Utah a couple posts up thread in Arches National Park.  The Park Road north of the turn off for the Windows was basically a conpacted sheet of ice.  There is a large descent down toward the Delicate Arch trailhead which I never would have gotten back up on even if I put my chains on.  Cities like Montreal that have lots of snow and hilly grades see issues like that every winter with down hill slide, frontwards and backwards.