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Author Topic: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway  (Read 2545 times)

theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2020, 01:59:31 AM »

On an unrelated note, anyone notice on the 241, just north of Oso Parkway, how there's something that looks like provisions for a future interchange (one with a SB exit and NB entrance?)
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stevashe

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2020, 11:13:14 AM »

I have noticed the extra pavement there before, though it didn't occur to me that it could be for a future exit; that's a good point. And actually if you look a bit south there's more stubs for a NB exit and SB entrance as well, I do wonder what it was planned to connect to though...
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2020, 03:13:45 PM »

I have noticed the extra pavement there before, though it didn't occur to me that it could be for a future exit; that's a good point. And actually if you look a bit south there's more stubs for a NB exit and SB entrance as well, I do wonder what it was planned to connect to though...
Oh yeah, I did notice. The only thing I saw in that area is what looks like some access road off Antonio Pkwy. There may be future development planned, but what do I know, anyways?
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2020, 04:45:00 PM »

I have noticed the extra pavement there before, though it didn't occur to me that it could be for a future exit; that's a good point. And actually if you look a bit south there's more stubs for a NB exit and SB entrance as well, I do wonder what it was planned to connect to though...
Oh yeah, I did notice. The only thing I saw in that area is what looks like some access road off Antonio Pkwy. There may be future development planned, but what do I know, anyways?
I have noticed the extra pavement there before, though it didn't occur to me that it could be for a future exit; that's a good point. And actually if you look a bit south there's more stubs for a NB exit and SB entrance as well, I do wonder what it was planned to connect to though...
Oh yeah, I did notice. The only thing I saw in that area is what looks like some access road off Antonio Pkwy. There may be future development planned, but what do I know, anyways?

Even with the rapid growth of housing in the area, it's unlikely that an additional local-service interchange on CA 241 was planned so close to the existing Oso interchange, particularly since OTR machines would have to be installed on those ramps, raising the expense to do so.  And looking at the area -- the only clear path from that "ghost ramp" area down to I-5 would involve snaking a multilane facility down Antonio Creek, intersecting I-5 at about the Mission Viejo/San Juan Capistrano city line (about a mile south of the CA 73 merge).   And unless every environmental group in SoCal would be looking the other way, riparian areas such as that canyon are effectively off-limits.   Trying to fashion a facililty over to I-5 without encountering such opposition -- or simply lack of a place to put much of anything -- doesn't appear to be happening now or in the foreseeable future.   
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Mark68

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2020, 06:33:51 PM »

There may be a way to have Los Patrones built due south of Cow Camp toward La Pata, following La Pata from about Stallion Ridge (just SE of San Juan Hills HS) to Camino del Rio, then south again to Pico (somewhere between Camino Vera Cruz & Calle Frontera), and then can parallel Pico to I-5.


I haven't been down that way, so I'm not sure how steep the hills are, but eyeball-wise, it looks possible on Google Maps.
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2020, 05:09:18 PM »

There may be a way to have Los Patrones built due south of Cow Camp toward La Pata, following La Pata from about Stallion Ridge (just SE of San Juan Hills HS) to Camino del Rio, then south again to Pico (somewhere between Camino Vera Cruz & Calle Frontera), and then can parallel Pico to I-5.


I haven't been down that way, so I'm not sure how steep the hills are, but eyeball-wise, it looks possible on Google Maps.

The problem is that once you get down to San Clemente's more developed areas flanking I-5, the opposition, whether from an environmental or simply NIMBY standpoint would likely be deafeningly loud, blunting any momentum toward completion of the basic 241 corridor concept, regardless of actual specific format.   That's part & parcel of the reason the corridor was truncated in the first place; "joisting" it off parallel to an existing uphill arterial probably won't fare any better than the original plan.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2020, 05:51:38 PM »

This is why we need laws to stop these lawsuit happy NIMBYs. There are valid concerns and residents should absolutely have a voice. We just have to moved too far to the extreme allowing these projects to be delayed or even halted. I wonder what the chance of 241 ever reaching the 5 really is.

I see projects like extending the 55 freeway to PCH and Irvine Corona Tunnel on OCTA website and both of those are sorely needed yet don't stand a chance in today's political climate. Hopefully that changes towards the end of this decade.
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X99

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2020, 11:25:22 PM »

There may be a way to have Los Patrones built due south of Cow Camp toward La Pata, following La Pata from about Stallion Ridge (just SE of San Juan Hills HS) to Camino del Rio, then south again to Pico (somewhere between Camino Vera Cruz & Calle Frontera), and then can parallel Pico to I-5.


I haven't been down that way, so I'm not sure how steep the hills are, but eyeball-wise, it looks possible on Google Maps.

The problem is that once you get down to San Clemente's more developed areas flanking I-5, the opposition, whether from an environmental or simply NIMBY standpoint would likely be deafeningly loud, blunting any momentum toward completion of the basic 241 corridor concept, regardless of actual specific format.   That's part & parcel of the reason the corridor was truncated in the first place; "joisting" it off parallel to an existing uphill arterial probably won't fare any better than the original plan.
In that case, Mark's plan looks like it would work just fine until it got to Pico. Here's my solution- continue the route across Pico just north of the Calle del Cerro intersecion and run it between the neighborhoods to Cristianitos Road, then parallel that road to the east until it reaches I-5.
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SeriesE

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2020, 03:27:10 AM »

I wonder how much of the opposition is "I don't want a tolled freeway" vs. "I don't want a freeway period."
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2020, 05:24:10 AM »

I wonder how much of the opposition is "I don't want a tolled freeway" vs. "I don't want a freeway period."

Pretty much the latter; although OC's political history would indicate otherwise, it (or at least its official public transportation body, OCTA) readily signed on to the tolled network in the late '80's after it was clear that (a) a limited-access network along the eastern hills wouldn't be financially feasible without tolls, and (b) without said network, the potential for developing the uphill areas like Rancho Santa Margarita and Coto de Caza was effectively nil.  So, like most OC activity, the developers drove the concept, eventually overcoming the "we're getting taxed twice" (i.e. gas tax + tolls) opposition.   The whole network was built out by 1998 -- except 241 south of Mission Viejo.  That was effectively nixed by a combination of environmental activists (the southern end connecting to I-5 was routed right down a riparian creek bed, which incited much of the opposition from that quarter) as well as NIMBY's from the San Clemente area.   That opposition would have emerged -- and prevailed -- regardless of whether the facility was tolled or not.     
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kendancy66

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2020, 08:27:04 PM »

On an unrelated note, anyone notice on the 241, just north of Oso Parkway, how there's something that looks like provisions for a future interchange (one with a SB exit and NB entrance?)
There has been a small stub where Crown Valley ends at Antonio Pkwy for a long time.  That would be perpendicular to CA-241 toll road.  But that would be south of Oso Pkwy not north
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kendancy66

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2020, 08:28:45 PM »

There may be a way to have Los Patrones built due south of Cow Camp toward La Pata, following La Pata from about Stallion Ridge (just SE of San Juan Hills HS) to Camino del Rio, then south again to Pico (somewhere between Camino Vera Cruz & Calle Frontera), and then can parallel Pico to I-5.


I haven't been down that way, so I'm not sure how steep the hills are, but eyeball-wise, it looks possible on Google Maps.

I agree with that, or it could also end at Ortega Hwy
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2020, 04:23:22 AM »

On an unrelated note, anyone notice on the 241, just north of Oso Parkway, how there's something that looks like provisions for a future interchange (one with a SB exit and NB entrance?)
There has been a small stub where Crown Valley ends at Antonio Pkwy for a long time.  That would be perpendicular to CA-241 toll road.  But that would be south of Oso Pkwy not north

There may have been a plan to build it to the 241 as Exit 12 or 13, near where they would have had the toll plaza.
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djsekani

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2020, 07:38:07 PM »

There may be a way to have Los Patrones built due south of Cow Camp toward La Pata, following La Pata from about Stallion Ridge (just SE of San Juan Hills HS) to Camino del Rio, then south again to Pico (somewhere between Camino Vera Cruz & Calle Frontera), and then can parallel Pico to I-5.


I haven't been down that way, so I'm not sure how steep the hills are, but eyeball-wise, it looks possible on Google Maps.

Technically possible, sure, but these are all highly developed areas (both commercially and residentially) and residents will scream bloody murder at any attempt to route through there.

Honestly unless you want to either route 241 through/around Camp Pendleton in some way the odds of a full freeway connection to I-5 are about 0.0002%.
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2020, 08:04:25 PM »

There may be a way to have Los Patrones built due south of Cow Camp toward La Pata, following La Pata from about Stallion Ridge (just SE of San Juan Hills HS) to Camino del Rio, then south again to Pico (somewhere between Camino Vera Cruz & Calle Frontera), and then can parallel Pico to I-5.


I haven't been down that way, so I'm not sure how steep the hills are, but eyeball-wise, it looks possible on Google Maps.

Technically possible, sure, but these are all highly developed areas (both commercially and residentially) and residents will scream bloody murder at any attempt to route through there.

Honestly unless you want to either route 241 through/around Camp Pendleton in some way the odds of a full freeway connection to I-5 are about 0.0002%.

Since Pendleton extends all the way to the Santa Ana Mountains ridgeline in its northernmost reaches, and the Fallbrook city limits south of there, any extension of CA 241 would have to surmount the range and snake around behind the Marine base to get to a terminus ostensibly along CA 76.  Alternately, running it east around the north end of Fallbrook to I-15 would entail just about the same mileage and effort.  But the route would be out of Orange County by then; the original routing only passed through a mile or two of SD County en route to its merge with I-5 -- which was by design, so OCTA would have functional full control of the facility (the short SD County segment would have been paid for by OCTA, with the first toll-collection facility/device within OC).  But it's doubtful that SD County would readily contribute to 15-20 miles of new-terrain construction in exceptionally difficult topology for a facility that wouldn't really provide much benefit to itself -- even if toll revenue were to be proportioned to provide a revenue/maintenance stream for both jurisdictions.  And running through an active USMC base, particularly one with regularly active ordinance training/testing facilities, is a non-starter as long as the base remains open.  Bottom line -- 241 and its short locally-maintained extension simply peter out where they are, or connect directly with CA 74 if that facility is expanded and/or upgraded (but almost certainly not to limited-access standards).
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