AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules for political content in signatures and user profiles. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead  (Read 13116 times)

Scott5114

  • *
  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 9334
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Norman, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 01:40:14 PM
    • Denexa 100% Plastic Playing Cards
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #175 on: May 27, 2019, 04:56:51 AM »

And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
Logged

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3594
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 01:13:48 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #176 on: May 27, 2019, 06:11:35 AM »

And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.
Victims lawyers were shopping for compensation payers- state is legally immune as far as I understand; company has no assets worth suing, owner is a slick guy with FBI behind him, and getting him from Pakistan  is a challenge. So they aimed at county as a source of compensation....
Logged

jeffandnicole

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 11323
  • Age: 45
  • Location: South Jersey
  • Last Login: Today at 10:05:17 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #177 on: May 27, 2019, 08:25:28 AM »

And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.
Victims lawyers were shopping for compensation payers- state is legally immune as far as I understand; company has no assets worth suing, owner is a slick guy with FBI behind him, and getting him from Pakistan  is a challenge. So they aimed at county as a source of compensation....

So next would be...the auto manufacturer or the company that built the limo?
Logged

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3594
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 01:13:48 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #178 on: May 27, 2019, 10:09:29 AM »

And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.
Victims lawyers were shopping for compensation payers- state is legally immune as far as I understand; company has no assets worth suing, owner is a slick guy with FBI behind him, and getting him from Pakistan  is a challenge. So they aimed at county as a source of compensation....

So next would be...the auto manufacturer or the company that built the limo?
Manufacturer will have a strong case that they didn't approve modification. Modification was done by a company which coldn't be located, likely non-existent.
If I  remember correctly, modification was done in 2001, and even statues of limitations may be in issue.
Logged

J N Winkler

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6815
  • Location: Wichita, Kansas/Oxford, Great Britain
  • Last Login: Today at 11:57:11 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #179 on: May 27, 2019, 10:34:57 AM »

One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.

Why would the county have tort liability?  As I understand it, the crash happened entirely on the state highway system.  (Does New York allow counties to claim qualified immunity?)

The statement about "catastrophic brake failure" also does not address lack of engine braking as a possible contributing factor, which we have inferred from previous reporting is a focus of the NTSB investigation.

Given that the State Police is an arm of the state government, as is NYSDOT, I am skeptical of the independence and impartiality of the investigation.  The general rule of thumb these days is that sovereign immunity does not exist anymore, although the manner in which a state can be sued for damages is still stringently restricted by statute (I do not know where specifically New York is in this particular facet of tort reform, which occurred in the 1970's in most states).
Logged
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3594
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 01:13:48 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #180 on: May 27, 2019, 10:50:15 AM »

One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.

Why would the county have tort liability?  As I understand it, the crash happened entirely on the state highway system.  (Does New York allow counties to claim qualified immunity?)

The statement about "catastrophic brake failure" also does not address lack of engine braking as a possible contributing factor, which we have inferred from previous reporting is a focus of the NTSB investigation.

Given that the State Police is an arm of the state government, as is NYSDOT, I am skeptical of the independence and impartiality of the investigation.  The general rule of thumb these days is that sovereign immunity does not exist anymore, although the manner in which a state can be sued for damages is still stringently restricted by statute (I do not know where specifically New York is in this particular facet of tort reform, which occurred in the 1970's in most states).
I don't remember details, but the county was mentioned as a possible entity to be sued for sure.  The problem for lawyers is that there is no rich entity to milk in this case.
Lack of engine braking is the most obvious question. Navigation to a difficult road is another. Driver, who according to latest articles "had enough tickets to get license suspended; the suspension was not filed due to clerical error"  is another nice detail.
To make things worse, NTSB is effectively kicked out of the case - they still didn't get their hands on a wreck. I would expect many things are no longer traceable.
Logged

Rothman

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6101
  • Last Login: Today at 01:10:48 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #181 on: May 27, 2019, 11:18:21 AM »

One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.

Why would the county have tort liability?  As I understand it, the crash happened entirely on the state highway system.  (Does New York allow counties to claim qualified immunity?)

The statement about "catastrophic brake failure" also does not address lack of engine braking as a possible contributing factor, which we have inferred from previous reporting is a focus of the NTSB investigation.

Given that the State Police is an arm of the state government, as is NYSDOT, I am skeptical of the independence and impartiality of the investigation.  The general rule of thumb these days is that sovereign immunity does not exist anymore, although the manner in which a state can be sued for damages is still stringently restricted by statute (I do not know where specifically New York is in this particular facet of tort reform, which occurred in the 1970's in most states).

Just so happens that my capstone project was on the issue of transportation issues and sovereign immunity; did the work for FHWA.

Although total sovereign immunity does not exist, NY is one of the stricter states in terms of defining when someone can sue in regards to transportation agency negligence or other misbehavior.  In this particular case, I really doubt that the investigation deliberately warped facts to protect the State from any sort of lawsuit.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14805
  • It is well, it is well, with my soul.

  • Age: 58
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: September 28, 2020, 09:20:28 PM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #182 on: May 27, 2019, 02:51:31 PM »

Not sure why the state would bear any fault whatsoever here. Everything I've seen indicates that the hill and the stop condition at the bottom of it are very clearly signed. Besides, intersections like that are a dime a dozen in this part of the country (eastern Kentucky, West Virginia, southwestern Virginia, western North Carolina, east Tennessee). The grade and curvature looks mild compared to a lot of intersections I'm familiar with.
Logged

webny99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4732
  • Roadgeek Forever!

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Rochester, NY
  • Last Login: September 28, 2020, 11:09:33 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #183 on: May 27, 2019, 10:45:08 PM »

And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?
Mike
Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.

Nicely done  :D
Logged
Left Lane is For Passing, Not Camping!

steviep24

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 249
  • Location: Rochester, NY
  • Last Login: September 26, 2020, 07:01:09 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #184 on: May 31, 2019, 08:29:57 PM »

Braking news (pun intended):
According to the expert hired by State Police, the sole cause of the accident [..] is "catastrophic brake failure"
I have a hard time interpreting that statement...
Rusted out brake lines are a common problem here in NY with vehicles that have some age on them. They can give out without warning. Perhaps that's what may have caused this limo crash.
Logged

J N Winkler

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6815
  • Location: Wichita, Kansas/Oxford, Great Britain
  • Last Login: Today at 11:57:11 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #185 on: May 31, 2019, 10:11:48 PM »

Rusted out brake lines are a common problem here in NY with vehicles that have some age on them. They can give out without warning. Perhaps that's what may have caused this limo crash.

It may very well have done.  The problem with having "catastrophic brake failure" as the totality of the explanation is that the investigation really needs to look at why the limo was out of control as it was going down a clearly signed long downgrade.  If engine braking was available and had been used, then the limo would have been moving much more slowly at the bottom of the hill and the crash would likely have been much more survivable even if it could still not be avoided altogether.
Logged
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10065
  • Mad man with a camera

  • Age: 60
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: Today at 12:23:29 PM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #186 on: October 09, 2019, 02:37:32 PM »

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mavis-manager-Invoices-falsified-brake-work-not-14503357.php

A former manager of a Mavis Discount Tire outlet told investigators last month that the auto shop had falsified invoices and failed to perform critical brake work on the stretch limousine that crashed in New York last year, killing 20 people.
Logged
Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Rothman

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6101
  • Last Login: Today at 01:10:48 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #187 on: October 09, 2019, 03:14:45 PM »

My word.  I don't even know how to make sense of that insanity.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

cl94

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5961
  • Trust me, I'm a transportation engineer

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Albany, New York
  • Last Login: Today at 01:22:52 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #188 on: October 09, 2019, 03:27:58 PM »

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mavis-manager-Invoices-falsified-brake-work-not-14503357.php

A former manager of a Mavis Discount Tire outlet told investigators last month that the auto shop had falsified invoices and failed to perform critical brake work on the stretch limousine that crashed in New York last year, killing 20 people.

And that would be why I don't let Mavis do anything to my car other than tires. I saw the story this morning and was not happy.
Logged
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3594
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 01:13:48 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #189 on: October 09, 2019, 03:36:56 PM »

My word.  I don't even know how to make sense of that insanity.
If you read the letter, it is less cut and dry. Mavis allegedly billed for certain services while actually performing some other work for that money. While a shady practice, I would expect it was agreed with limo owner. If not... 
Dates are also important; limo was quoted by state for safety issues AFTER Mavis service date. So while a big deal, this (even if everything is actually true and not FBI informant protection action) doesn't get operator off the hook.
Logged

J N Winkler

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6815
  • Location: Wichita, Kansas/Oxford, Great Britain
  • Last Login: Today at 11:57:11 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #190 on: October 09, 2019, 03:47:18 PM »

And that would be why I don't let Mavis do anything to my car other than tires. I saw the story this morning and was not happy.

I am not sure I would let them do even that.  The contact patch is where it all happens . . .
Logged
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Rothman

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6101
  • Last Login: Today at 01:10:48 AM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #191 on: October 09, 2019, 04:00:25 PM »

I wonder if Mavis will sue the guy.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

empirestate

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4233
  • Last Login: September 28, 2020, 01:18:22 AM
    • Empire State Roads
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #192 on: October 10, 2019, 11:28:15 AM »

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mavis-manager-Invoices-falsified-brake-work-not-14503357.php

A former manager of a Mavis Discount Tire outlet told investigators last month that the auto shop had falsified invoices and failed to perform critical brake work on the stretch limousine that crashed in New York last year, killing 20 people.

And that would be why I don't let Mavis do anything to my car other than tires. I saw the story this morning and was not happy.

Wait, you already knew that Mavis was doing this? Or do you mean you won't use them anymore after reading this?
Logged

US71

  • Road Scholar , Master of Snark
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10065
  • Mad man with a camera

  • Age: 60
  • Location: On the road again
  • Last Login: Today at 12:23:29 PM
    • The Road Less Taken
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #193 on: October 10, 2019, 12:26:53 PM »

I wonder if Mavis will sue the guy.

Mavis should have his @ss sued, as should the limo company (oh wait! Didn't the limo owner move back to his homeland?)
Logged
Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

kalvado

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3594
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 01:13:48 PM
Re: Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead
« Reply #194 on: October 10, 2019, 12:45:40 PM »

I wonder if Mavis will sue the guy.

Mavis should have his @ss sued, as should the limo company (oh wait! Didn't the limo owner move back to his homeland?)
Limo company owner moved after heart surgery, well before most of crash-related events, so he probably played little role in crash - and FBI should cover his back anyway. His son (who was running the business) is in hot water, though.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.