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Author Topic: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4  (Read 890 times)

MaxConcrete

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http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/ppd/0000003693/pre-rfq-presentation.pdf

Consultant solicitation
https://www.txdot.gov/business/consultants/architectural-engineering-surveying/meetings/120318.html

Note that schematics on the main page are the original, now obsolete design which was 2-2T-2T-2 (T=tolled). According to the presentation "Schematic re-development is underway with AECOM".

Brief history: Loop 1604 is currently in its original 2x2 configuration, and for a very long time plans have been discussed and developed to add four tolled lanes (and no new general-purpose lanes). But, lucky for San Antonio, the project was delayed so long that now the political climate has shifted, and according to presentation the four new lanes will be general-purpose non-tolled. The cross-section view also shows two "HOV/Special purpose lanes", one in each direction, for a 4-1H-1H-4 configuration.

The presentation says construction begins in 2021. San Antonio better hope they can actually get it done this time, because you never know, the pendulum might swing back in favor of toll lanes.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:32:16 PM by MaxConcrete »
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Chris

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 01:57:11 PM »

According to that presentation they have a funding gap of almost $ 500 million for this project.

I'm wondering, where are they going to get all that money to construct these large urban freeway projects without a toll component?

Bobby5280

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 05:51:24 PM »

Quote from: MaxConcrete
The presentation says construction begins in 2021. San Antonio better hope they can actually get it done this time, because you never know, the pendulum might swing back in favor of toll lanes.

Politics is one thing. But math is a harder, more truthful reality. How much will this project's costs rise between now and 2021? How much more of a financial gap will there be in available fuel tax-based funding versus how much the road costs at that time?

No one really likes toll roads at all. For some projects the notion of building it as a toll road will make the difference between it being built or not built at all.

I am glad they're re-designing the road as a 4-1H 1H 4 facility. I can't stand the 2-2T-2T-2 setups, like the north part of I-820 in Fort Worth for example. The road eats up a lot of extra real estate but has limited traffic capacity. A "free" road in the same space could have 6 or 7 lanes in each direction.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 06:51:04 AM »

Quote from: MaxConcrete
The presentation says construction begins in 2021. San Antonio better hope they can actually get it done this time, because you never know, the pendulum might swing back in favor of toll lanes.

Politics is one thing. But math is a harder, more truthful reality. How much will this project's costs rise between now and 2021? How much more of a financial gap will there be in available fuel tax-based funding versus how much the road costs at that time?

No one really likes toll roads at all. For some projects the notion of building it as a toll road will make the difference between it being built or not built at all.

I am glad they're re-designing the road as a 4-1H 1H 4 facility. I can't stand the 2-2T-2T-2 setups, like the north part of I-820 in Fort Worth for example. The road eats up a lot of extra real estate but has limited traffic capacity. A "free" road in the same space could have 6 or 7 lanes in each direction.
Or instead of going all out with concrete barriers they could have those flexible plastic barriers(I can’t remember what they’re called) that would save an tremendous amount of money and a lot of space. I’m with you on the 2T-2F setup anyways. Or you could just use paint to separate the lanes and ticket people that are caught cheating.
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froggie

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 09:51:43 AM »

Quote from: Bobby5280
A "free" road in the same space could have 6 or 7 lanes in each direction.

But would be a lot more inefficient once you get beyond 4-5 lanes on one carriageway.  Freeway lanes lose efficiency and capacity once you go beyond that threshold.

For a case-study on flexible bollards (basically what Plutonic Panda was referring to), look at the Virginia portion of the D.C. Beltway.
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In_Correct

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 11:44:38 PM »

I prefer at least two tolled lanes in each direction just as at least two free lanes in each direction and also continuous frontage roads with at least two lanes in each direction in addition to the slip ramps.

Quote from: Bobby5280
A "free" road in the same space could have 6 or 7 lanes in each direction.

But would be a lot more inefficient once you get beyond 4-5 lanes on one carriageway.  Freeway lanes lose efficiency and capacity once you go beyond that threshold.

For a case-study on flexible bollards (basically what Plutonic Panda was referring to), look at the Virginia portion of the D.C. Beltway.

Or to start out with perhaps those huge dome shaped bump things that are slightly larger than the button reflectors. I do not know the name of them but they are probably 6 inches in height and are meant to be dividers.

As for the maximum efficiency of carriageways, perhaps Barrier Transfer is useful. At that point, passenger rail should also be considered.

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rte66man

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2018, 12:23:59 PM »

 :bigass:
I prefer at least two tolled lanes in each direction just as at least two free lanes in each direction and also continuous frontage roads with at least two lanes in each direction in addition to the slip ramps.

Quote from: Bobby5280
A "free" road in the same space could have 6 or 7 lanes in each direction.

But would be a lot more inefficient once you get beyond 4-5 lanes on one carriageway.  Freeway lanes lose efficiency and capacity once you go beyond that threshold.

For a case-study on flexible bollards (basically what Plutonic Panda was referring to), look at the Virginia portion of the D.C. Beltway.

Or to start out with perhaps those huge dome shaped bump things that are slightly larger than the button reflectors. I do not know the name of them but they are probably 6 inches in height and are meant to be dividers.

Botts dots on steroids?  :bigass:
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In_Correct

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2018, 02:42:31 AM »

What ever those things are, they are much larger than Bott Dots. They are the same height as Parking Stops or Wheel Stops (which could also be used as barriers) but are dome shaped and are placed next to each other forming a line not meant to be driven over.

I have been searching for pictures. I have not found any but remember them. It is possible that they have been phased out a long time ago.
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wxfree

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2018, 08:17:20 PM »

I think you mean these.  TxDOT's Waco district seems to like them.  They use them at intersections to simulate curbs where curbs don't exist.  I don't know what they're called.  I looked through construction plans to see if there are any references to them, and didn't find any.  Either they're being phased out, or they're added without being in the official plans.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.0806312,-97.5510448,3a,60y,318.09h,86.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1Wyc8XxWC-wnzPvYhYM-4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
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djlynch

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 03:44:19 PM »

I thought of something like these that the City of Austin has started using to separate some bike lanes, pedestrian refuges, etc. from vehicular traffic. They're two or three inches high at the outside edge and another two or three inches higher at the center.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2018785,-97.7546605,3a,20.4y,188.81h,79.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stqopSZSncIZku4pcAIYXBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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In_Correct

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Re: San Antonio: North Loop 1604 expansion now planned to be 4-1H-IH-4
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2018, 10:25:04 AM »

I thought of something like these that the City of Austin has started using to separate some bike lanes, pedestrian refuges, etc. from vehicular traffic. They're two or three inches high at the outside edge and another two or three inches higher at the center.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2018785,-97.7546605,3a,20.4y,188.81h,79.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stqopSZSncIZku4pcAIYXBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That's It!  :bigass:

Those are what I have seen before. But I have also seen them forming a line not spaced out but touching each other.
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