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Author Topic: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes  (Read 15342 times)

ilpt4u

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #425 on: September 12, 2019, 06:31:34 PM »

If Tolls and/or PPPs are to be debated/discussed, perhaps a new thread is warranted

They can relate to adding lanes to existing 4 lane rural interstates, but are not the center of said topic
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Beltway

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #426 on: September 12, 2019, 06:53:07 PM »

My replies are almost always prompted by your postings of your position.
To elaborate, when I post my position on any said matter and you encounter it & disagree, you respond with an opposing view because you seem to have this rhetoric that my views are incorrect and yours are correct.
Pot, kettle, black (and I could write that 10 times)

For example, I made a posting this morning regarding waiting as opposed entering the intersection and going when clear, and all of a sudden you're the next post telling me why I'm wrong.
What makes you think my post was to YOU?  There are at least 4 other people that disagree with me.  I acknowledged that there is no legal obligation to stake out a left turn.  There has been an interesting exchange and I am learning more about both viewpoints.

I have agreed with your views in a number of topics, including the I-81 Syracuse thread that just again became active.

I am the one who is taking a middle ground position on this issue, and acknowledging that PPP is just one tool, and not meant to replace tax funding.  Some projects are appropriate for PPP, some are not.
You seem to have major support and some connection to the I-95, I-495, and I-395 HO/T lane system as
anytime someone disagrees with its operation, the P3 aspect, the HO/T concept, the fact I-95 needs more lanes, etc.
….
you come across with that same rhetoric that you're right, they're wrong.
Not to sound like a 'broken record', but …
Pot …. Kettle … Black!

Look, it is obvious that you are new to online group discussions.  You clearly don't yet very well understand the give and take of opinions.  Perhaps you should slow down and lurk more and post less, to learn more about how things work.
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sprjus4

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #427 on: September 12, 2019, 06:57:30 PM »

Look, it is obvious that you are new to online group discussions.  You clearly don't yet very well understand the give and take of opinions.  Perhaps you should slow down and lurk more and post less, to learn more about how things work.
I understand generally how they work. The constant back-and-forth is excessive. That's been said many times here.

How many pages have we argued over I-87, HO/T lanes, just to name a few? 50+ over the past year. That's excessive, especially when it's repetition.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 07:00:39 PM by sprjus4 »
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vdeane

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #428 on: September 12, 2019, 08:30:30 PM »

The Interstate Highway System was mostly built with taxes.  That model worked well and can again.  Toll-free facilities that do not cause economic inequality on our transportation system are better at serving the public at large than tolled facilities that cause only those that can afford them to be able to use them (or putting an unnecessary extra economic burden on those on the cusp of affording them).
Then why so many perpetual toll roads in your state (NY)?  Including the longest end-to-end turnpike, built in the 1950s, the vast majority of which has never been expanded (and a number of AARoads posters have cited congestion problems between Buffalo and Albany that warrant 6-lane widening), and the number of NYC bridges and tunnels that have not been expanded in over 50 years yet they have tolls as high as the peak period tolls on the HOT lanes that you complain about, and all for one or two miles of highway.
So many?  Even breaking out the New England Thruway from the rest of the Thruway system (I don't break out the Berkshire Spur because it's part of the ticket system), that's just two.  Note that I'm not including tolled bridges and tunnels, as those are much more expensive to build and maintain.

Most people I know want the tolls gone.  IMO the tolled interstates should have been required to remove the tolls upon the original bonds being paid off when they were grandfathered into the system, and the prohibitions on tolls should not have been relaxed (I'd also have indexed the gas tax to inflation, construction costs, and fuel efficiency, which would have avoided the funding problems we now have).
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webny99

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #429 on: September 13, 2019, 12:43:36 PM »

Could we get a full list of all six-laning projects currently in progress?

Adding a few more of my own, plus the segments others have noted, for an updated list:

-Alabama: I-20/59 near Tuscaloosa
-Ohio: I-75 south of Exit 157
-Ohio: portions of I-80/90 near Toledo
-Pennsylvania: I-70/I-79 multiplex near Washington, PA.
-Texas: I-45 north of Houston, near Ada and New Waverly.
-Wisconsin: I-90/39 from the Illinois line to Madison
-Illinois: I-57 has a five mile stretch being widened near Johnston City.
-Indiana: Part of I-65 near Seymour
-Virginia: 64   West of VA-199 Exit 234   West of VA-199 Exit 242


*I omitted the HO/T lanes being added in Virginia, not because they aren't legitimate widenings, but because they are likely being added to commuter routes located in urban or suburban (non-rural) areas.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #430 on: September 13, 2019, 04:50:24 PM »

As much beef as I have with tolls HO/T lanes are most certainly a widening of the freeway. Would we not count a toll road being widened as a widening?
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sprjus4

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #431 on: September 13, 2019, 04:56:44 PM »

North Carolina:

I-95 between Fayetteville and I-40 - 25 miles - Widening from 4 to 8 lanes - Completion 2024.
I-40 between NC-42 and I-87 - 10 miles - Widening from 4 to 8 lanes - Completion 2022.
I-85 between NC-73 and US-29 - 14 miles - Widening from 4 to 8 lanes - Completion 2019 - 2020.
I-40 between US-501 and I-85 - 12 miles - Widening from 4 to 6 lanes - Completion ~2025.
I-85 between NC-273 and US-321 - 10 miles - Widening from 6 to 8 lanes - Completion 2024.

Another project could be US-1 between I-540 and NC-1931 which would be completed around 2025 - 2026. The road is currently a four-lane non-limited-access urban arterial with numerous traffic signals and heavy congestion issues though would be expanded into a 6-lane freeway apart of this project, roughly 10 miles.

Did not include 26 miles of HO/T lanes on I-77 and 17 miles of HO/T lanes on I-485.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 05:23:03 PM by sprjus4 »
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ilpt4u

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #432 on: September 13, 2019, 05:21:50 PM »

Another in Illinois, coming soon:

I-80 around/thru Joliet/Will County...was a key piece of the Infrastructure bill that required the doubling of the fuel tax this past summer
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tdindy88

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #433 on: September 13, 2019, 08:22:08 PM »

Another widening for Indiana: I-69 from Miles 218 to 226 around Anderson. When this is done the first 26 miles of I-69 northeast of Indianapolis will be all six lanes. When I went to school in Muncie back around 2010, only the first five miles was six lanes.
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ftballfan

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #434 on: September 13, 2019, 11:52:09 PM »

Could we get a full list of all six-laning projects currently in progress?

Adding a few more of my own, plus the segments others have noted, for an updated list:

-Alabama: I-20/59 near Tuscaloosa
-Ohio: I-75 south of Exit 157
-Ohio: portions of I-80/90 near Toledo
-Pennsylvania: I-70/I-79 multiplex near Washington, PA.
-Texas: I-45 north of Houston, near Ada and New Waverly.
-Wisconsin: I-90/39 from the Illinois line to Madison
-Illinois: I-57 has a five mile stretch being widened near Johnston City.
-Indiana: Part of I-65 near Seymour
-Virginia: 64   West of VA-199 Exit 234   West of VA-199 Exit 242


*I omitted the HO/T lanes being added in Virginia, not because they aren't legitimate widenings, but because they are likely being added to commuter routes located in urban or suburban (non-rural) areas.


I-80/I-90 is now six lanes to exit 59. I think it used to end at exit 64 a few years ago. Really no need for six-laning west of exit 59 IMHO
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Revive 755

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #435 on: September 14, 2019, 12:04:11 AM »

Another in Illinois, coming soon:

I-80 around/thru Joliet/Will County...was a key piece of the Infrastructure bill that required the doubling of the fuel tax this past summer

Not really rural, and based on the exhibits from "Public Meeting #3," it's mostly a couple of auxiliary lanes, with only IL 7 to Briggs really getting a third through lane.
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DJStephens

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #436 on: September 15, 2019, 12:58:39 PM »

The Interstate Highway System was mostly built with taxes.  That model worked well and can again.  Toll-free facilities that do not cause economic inequality on our transportation system are better at serving the public at large than tolled facilities that cause only those that can afford them to be able to use them (or putting an unnecessary extra economic burden on those on the cusp of affording them).
Then why so many perpetual toll roads in your state (NY)?  Including the longest end-to-end turnpike, built in the 1950s, the vast majority of which has never been expanded (and a number of AARoads posters have cited congestion problems between Buffalo and Albany that warrant 6-lane widening), and the number of NYC bridges and tunnels that have not been expanded in over 50 years yet they have tolls as high as the peak period tolls on the HOT lanes that you complain about, and all for one or two miles of highway.
So many?  Even breaking out the New England Thruway from the rest of the Thruway system (I don't break out the Berkshire Spur because it's part of the ticket system), that's just two.  Note that I'm not including tolled bridges and tunnels, as those are much more expensive to build and maintain.

Most people I know want the tolls gone.  IMO the tolled interstates should have been required to remove the tolls upon the original bonds being paid off when they were grandfathered into the system, and the prohibitions on tolls should not have been relaxed (I'd also have indexed the gas tax to inflation, construction costs, and fuel efficiency, which would have avoided the funding problems we now have).

Toll roads, and the turnpike authorities that birthed them, are manifestations of machine politics.  Usually found in Democratic majority states - New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Illinois are the main examples.  Florida and Oklahoma are the strange exceptions. 
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sprjus4

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #437 on: September 15, 2019, 01:18:29 PM »

The Interstate Highway System was mostly built with taxes.  That model worked well and can again.  Toll-free facilities that do not cause economic inequality on our transportation system are better at serving the public at large than tolled facilities that cause only those that can afford them to be able to use them (or putting an unnecessary extra economic burden on those on the cusp of affording them).
Then why so many perpetual toll roads in your state (NY)?  Including the longest end-to-end turnpike, built in the 1950s, the vast majority of which has never been expanded (and a number of AARoads posters have cited congestion problems between Buffalo and Albany that warrant 6-lane widening), and the number of NYC bridges and tunnels that have not been expanded in over 50 years yet they have tolls as high as the peak period tolls on the HOT lanes that you complain about, and all for one or two miles of highway.
So many?  Even breaking out the New England Thruway from the rest of the Thruway system (I don't break out the Berkshire Spur because it's part of the ticket system), that's just two.  Note that I'm not including tolled bridges and tunnels, as those are much more expensive to build and maintain.

Most people I know want the tolls gone.  IMO the tolled interstates should have been required to remove the tolls upon the original bonds being paid off when they were grandfathered into the system, and the prohibitions on tolls should not have been relaxed (I'd also have indexed the gas tax to inflation, construction costs, and fuel efficiency, which would have avoided the funding problems we now have).

Toll roads, and the turnpike authorities that birthed them, are manifestations of machine politics.  Usually found in Democratic majority states - New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Illinois are the main examples.  Florida and Oklahoma are the strange exceptions.
There’s also California and somewhat Virginia, though less so. Texas had a “toll road era” where toll road construction spiked, especially in urban areas such as Austin, Dallas, and Houston, and a few other remote exceptions, though as of late, toll road construction is now a thing of the past. Previously planned roads like the Grand Pkwy, and other roads under construction are still going to be tolled, but future projects are being done without tolls, and HO/T lanes are no longer going to be constructed, but rather HOV lanes.

It’s nice to see the state finally veer away from tolls and towards traditional construction. Of course, the toll roads that exist will stay for decades to come, but no more or very few will be built.

San Antonio remains a major metro in Texas without any toll roads, and new highways and expansion projects are continuing to be built, such as US-281, Loop 1604, I-10, and others with toll-free general purpose lanes and HOV managed lanes in select areas. No HO/T lanes, no tolls. They both were proposed once, but traditional funding methods got them done toll-free, HO/T free.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:20:39 PM by sprjus4 »
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US 89

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #438 on: September 15, 2019, 03:31:36 PM »

There’s also California and somewhat Virginia, though less so. Texas had a “toll road era” where toll road construction spiked, especially in urban areas such as Austin, Dallas, and Houston, and a few other remote exceptions, though as of late, toll road construction is now a thing of the past. Previously planned roads like the Grand Pkwy, and other roads under construction are still going to be tolled, but future projects are being done without tolls, and HO/T lanes are no longer going to be constructed, but rather HOV lanes.

It’s nice to see the state finally veer away from tolls and towards traditional construction. Of course, the toll roads that exist will stay for decades to come, but no more or very few will be built.

San Antonio remains a major metro in Texas without any toll roads, and new highways and expansion projects are continuing to be built, such as US-281, Loop 1604, I-10, and others with toll-free general purpose lanes and HOV managed lanes in select areas. No HO/T lanes, no tolls. They both were proposed once, but traditional funding methods got them done toll-free, HO/T free.

But the toll roads in those three states are largely for transportation within metro areas. The big toll roads in the other states listed above are intended to be long-distance corridors. (I'd also add Kansas to the list of long-distance tolling states, which would join Oklahoma as an exception to the trend mentioned.)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 03:33:46 PM by US 89 »
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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #439 on: September 15, 2019, 03:37:42 PM »

Most of those older tollroads  were built because plans for the Interstate system kept getting delayed until Ike got the job done and the nation's major population centers needed connecting in the booming post war economy. The Illinois system was built in the then Republican suburbs not the machine controlled city.
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sprjus4

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #440 on: September 15, 2019, 03:56:27 PM »

There’s also California and somewhat Virginia, though less so. Texas had a “toll road era” where toll road construction spiked, especially in urban areas such as Austin, Dallas, and Houston, and a few other remote exceptions, though as of late, toll road construction is now a thing of the past. Previously planned roads like the Grand Pkwy, and other roads under construction are still going to be tolled, but future projects are being done without tolls, and HO/T lanes are no longer going to be constructed, but rather HOV lanes.

It’s nice to see the state finally veer away from tolls and towards traditional construction. Of course, the toll roads that exist will stay for decades to come, but no more or very few will be built.

San Antonio remains a major metro in Texas without any toll roads, and new highways and expansion projects are continuing to be built, such as US-281, Loop 1604, I-10, and others with toll-free general purpose lanes and HOV managed lanes in select areas. No HO/T lanes, no tolls. They both were proposed once, but traditional funding methods got them done toll-free, HO/T free.

But the toll roads in those three states are largely for transportation within metro areas. The big toll roads in the other states listed above are intended to be long-distance corridors. (I'd also add Kansas to the list of long-distance tolling states, which would join Oklahoma as an exception to the trend mentioned.)
There's also TX-130 which is meant as a long-distance bypass of I-35 avoiding Austin and San Antonio. Was constructed in the early 2000s and completed in 2012. About 90 miles long.

Virginia had considered tolling on I-95 and I-81 at one point for long-distance traffic, though those plans were scrapped, and rightfully so. They also nearly constructed a ~53 mile toll road paralleling US-460 between US-58 in Suffolk and I-295 in Petersburg. It would've acted as a long-distance bypass of I-64 avoiding the tunnels, Newport News & Hampton, and traffic congestion thruout the entire corridor. There's also the VA-168 Chesapeake Expressway in southern Chesapeake is technically within Hampton Roads, but mostly oriented towards long-distance travelers to the Outer Banks, which is why the toll rates spike to $8 for the 6-mile toll road during peak weekends. Lastly, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, also for long-distance traffic, tolls up to $18 during peak weekends.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 04:03:20 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #441 on: September 15, 2019, 04:47:14 PM »

There’s also California and somewhat Virginia, though less so. Texas had a “toll road era” where toll road construction spiked, especially in urban areas such as Austin, Dallas, and Houston, and a few other remote exceptions, though as of late, toll road construction is now a thing of the past. Previously planned roads like the Grand Pkwy, and other roads under construction are still going to be tolled, but future projects are being done without tolls, and HO/T lanes are no longer going to be constructed, but rather HOV lanes.

It’s nice to see the state finally veer away from tolls and towards traditional construction. Of course, the toll roads that exist will stay for decades to come, but no more or very few will be built.

San Antonio remains a major metro in Texas without any toll roads, and new highways and expansion projects are continuing to be built, such as US-281, Loop 1604, I-10, and others with toll-free general purpose lanes and HOV managed lanes in select areas. No HO/T lanes, no tolls. They both were proposed once, but traditional funding methods got them done toll-free, HO/T free.

But the toll roads in those three states are largely for transportation within metro areas. The big toll roads in the other states listed above are intended to be long-distance corridors. (I'd also add Kansas to the list of long-distance tolling states, which would join Oklahoma as an exception to the trend mentioned.)

Kansas isn't an exception — Kansas voted with the Northeast and Midwest (Republican) in the 1950s.
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sprjus4

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #442 on: September 15, 2019, 05:36:15 PM »

There’s also California and somewhat Virginia, though less so. Texas had a “toll road era” where toll road construction spiked, especially in urban areas such as Austin, Dallas, and Houston, and a few other remote exceptions, though as of late, toll road construction is now a thing of the past. Previously planned roads like the Grand Pkwy, and other roads under construction are still going to be tolled, but future projects are being done without tolls, and HO/T lanes are no longer going to be constructed, but rather HOV lanes.

It’s nice to see the state finally veer away from tolls and towards traditional construction. Of course, the toll roads that exist will stay for decades to come, but no more or very few will be built.

San Antonio remains a major metro in Texas without any toll roads, and new highways and expansion projects are continuing to be built, such as US-281, Loop 1604, I-10, and others with toll-free general purpose lanes and HOV managed lanes in select areas. No HO/T lanes, no tolls. They both were proposed once, but traditional funding methods got them done toll-free, HO/T free.

But the toll roads in those three states are largely for transportation within metro areas. The big toll roads in the other states listed above are intended to be long-distance corridors. (I'd also add Kansas to the list of long-distance tolling states, which would join Oklahoma as an exception to the trend mentioned.)

Kansas isn't an exception — Kansas voted with the Northeast and Midwest (Republican) in the 1950s.
It’s an exception to the fact that today most of those states are democratic.
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mgk920

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Re: Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes
« Reply #443 on: September 16, 2019, 10:44:20 PM »

Most of those older tollroads  were built because plans for the Interstate system kept getting delayed until Ike got the job done and the nation's major population centers needed connecting in the booming post war economy. The Illinois system was built in the then Republican suburbs not the machine controlled city.

Of the entire ISTHA system, fully a one half block long (measured the narrow way) section of the Tri-State Tollway (I-294) just east of ORD is actually inside of Chicago's city limits.

Mike
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