I-515/I-11 Control City discussion

[US 89]

^^^^^^^^
My reply above was purely sarcastic.  I apologize if it sounded like it was based in extensive research (thought the presence of the emoji would give it away!).   

Well, that's the problem--it's not easy to read sarcasm off the internet.  (emoji for clarification )

[Kniwt]

Well, well, well, look what just showed up. Kingman!

[Plutonic Panda]

Nice! Will Phoenix show up here when the interstate is built there?

[nexus73]

Here's the video about when we get to Phoenix...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vflqJOp_0Wk

Rick

[mrsman]

Don't understand what is going on in NV.  Did they forget that Phoenix is signed at the I 15 interchange?  It's fine to use local controls ( it's not my preference), but once you use a long distance control, it needs to be signed until you reach Phoenix.

Nexus 5X

[sparker]

Don't understand what is going on in NV.  Did they forget that Phoenix is signed at the I 15 interchange?  It's fine to use local controls ( it's not my preference), but once you use a long distance control, it needs to be signed until you reach Phoenix.

Nexus 5X

Since the "Spaghetti Bowl" interchange is undergoing its latest round of modifications, it's entirely possible that since Kingman has emerged as a control city on later signage down the road, it might just be repeated once new interchange signage is erected.  If anyone over in NV can access NDOT signage plans for that interchange that might shed some light on the subject. 

[kdk]

I saw the new signs too with the Kingman as the control city.  I thought it seemed odd as well, and there's more than one of them up.

Only reasoning I could think if is that the interstate takes precedent over the US routes, I-11 will reach Kingman in the somewhat near future where as it won't reach Phoenix for probably 15 years.  In reality though I don't agree but that seems to make sense.

Also for the first time the signs along the 215 east approaching the 515/11 now reference I-11 but have Boulder City as the control city.

[skluth]

Kingman makes sense as it's the next city where the highway meets an interstate highway. A lot of traffic leaving Las Vegas is going to Kingman, then heading east on I-40. It may not be a large city like Phoenix, but you find this a lot in the Midwest and East Coast where cities like Effingham and Hagerstown are used as control cities because they're the next interstate junction even though very little of the traffic is completing their journey there.

[Mark68]

Another reason Kingman makes sense is that some of the traffic coming from Vegas would be headed points east on I-40: Flagstaff, the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, Albuquerque, etc.

[Sub-Urbanite]

As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:

Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman

Not great.

[ilpt4u]

As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:

Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman

Not great.

That needs brought down to 2, south of Downtown. I would use Boulder City (Local) and Phoenix (Major City/Long Distance).

Leaving Boulder City, Kingman can become the Southbound "Local"  Control. (I am slightly leaning on the non-Chicagoland IDOT Control City theory...Major Cities at Interstate Interchanges, and Local Controls at the regular interchanges ie I-55 Chicago and St Louis/Majors and Springfield, Lincoln, Bloomington, and Joliet/Locals or I-57 Chicago and Memphis/Majors and Sikeston, Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign, and Kankakee/Locals)

North of Downtown, Downtown LV is fine for Southbound

Also, just go ahead and decomission I-515 in favor of I-11. It's probably coming anyway...just do it

[nexus73]

As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:

Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman

Not great.

That needs brought down to 2, south of Downtown. I would use Boulder City (Local) and Phoenix (Major City/Long Distance).

Leaving Boulder City, Kingman can become the Southbound “Local” Control. (I am slightly leaning on the non-Chicagoland IDOT Control City theory...Major Cities at Interstate Interchanges, and Local Controls at the regular interchanges ie I-55 Chicago and St Louis/Majors and Springfield, Lincoln, Bloomington, and Joliet/Locals or I-57 Chicago and Memphis/Majors and Sikeston, Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign, and Kankakee/Locals)

North of Downtown, Downtown LV is fine for Southbound

Also, just go ahead and decomission I-515 in favor of I-11. It’s probably coming anyway...just do it

Bingo.  Your solution is spot on. 

Rick

[roadfro]

As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:

Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman

Not great.

That needs brought down to 2, south of Downtown. I would use Boulder City (Local) and Phoenix (Major City/Long Distance).

Leaving Boulder City, Kingman can become the Southbound "Local"  Control. (I am slightly leaning on the non-Chicagoland IDOT Control City theory...Major Cities at Interstate Interchanges, and Local Controls at the regular interchanges ie I-55 Chicago and St Louis/Majors and Springfield, Lincoln, Bloomington, and Joliet/Locals or I-57 Chicago and Memphis/Majors and Sikeston, Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign, and Kankakee/Locals)

North of Downtown, Downtown LV is fine for Southbound

Also, just go ahead and decomission I-515 in favor of I-11. It's probably coming anyway...just do it

Note that there's only a couple pull through signs on I-515/I-11 itself, with controls as follows: Downtown LV (actually on US 95 before I-515 begins); Phoenix (on 515 in downtown); Kingman (new I-11 signs as mentioned/shown above). All others are signs on intersecting roads/routes–and I'm pretty sure Needles is only older signs on side roads.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the sentiment here... I think some standardization would be in order.

As to I-515/US 95 becoming I-11, there has been evidence discussed previously that implies NDOT is leaning in that direction, but nothing official yet.

[mrsman]

My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known.  This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix

Nexus 5X

[Gnutella]

My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known.  This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix

Nexus 5X

I'm a big proponent of using two control cities if one of them is a small town at a major junction. The signs should say Kingman/Phoenix until Kingman. After that, Phoenix can stand alone. This approach would also be useful for long segments of Interstate without major cities, like I-70 in Kansas and I-80 in Pennsylvania. On I-70 eastbound in Kansas, the control cities can be Hays/Kansas City, Salina/Kansas City, Topeka/Kansas City, and then Kansas City alone. On I-80 eastbound in Pennsylvania, the control cities can be Clarion/New York, State College/New York, Williamsport/New York, Hazleton/New York, and then New York alone.

[mrsman]

My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known.  This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix

Nexus 5X

I'm a big proponent of using two control cities if one of them is a small town at a major junction. The signs should say Kingman/Phoenix until Kingman. After that, Phoenix can stand alone. This approach would also be useful for long segments of Interstate without major cities, like I-70 in Kansas and I-80 in Pennsylvania. On I-70 eastbound in Kansas, the control cities can be Hays/Kansas City, Salina/Kansas City, Topeka/Kansas City, and then Kansas City alone. On I-80 eastbound in Pennsylvania, the control cities can be Clarion/New York, State College/New York, Williamsport/New York, Hazleton/New York, and then New York alone.

No love for Wickenburg?

Seriously, 2 controls is preferred, but I know there's a preference in mutcd for 1 control to limit message loading.  I personally never believed it to be as big of a problem as they do and I bemoan the fact that many  cities are being removed from exit signs as in California (Balboa Blvd Encino).



Nexus 5X

[Occidental Tourist]

No love for Wickenburg?

I have love for Wickenburg. In fact, I prefer to be out Wickenburg Way when going to the Valley from SoCal if my destination allows it.

That being said, if the ultimate routing of I-11 skirts Wickenburg, I'd prefer that Wickenburg remain anonymous as a control city.

[kwellada]

No love for Wickenburg?

As someone who graduated high school in Wickenburg, your commment cracked me up!

[mrsman]

No love for Wickenburg?

As someone who graduated high school in Wickenburg, your commment cracked me up!

The comment was part joke and part seriousness.  As you well know, Wickenburg is the southern terminus of US 93, so it is also an important junction.  Continue following the diagonal along US 60 to reach Phoenix.

Heck, this sign here guides people from I-40 to both Wickenburg and Phoenix, in an ideal way.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1594489,-113.7005541,3a,75y,131.59h,87.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssiErJmDIobCCUvn3MA3ejQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The controls at the LV Spaghetti Bowl are perfect.  Big cities familiar to anyone in the Western US, very clearly identifying where you're headed:  Salt Lake City (and by extension all of Utah), Los Angeles (and by extension all of So Cal); Reno (and by extension northern Cal and northern Nevada), and Phoenix (and by extension most of Arizona*).  What's also interesting (especially to those folks who feel that a highway should reach its control city) is that in 3 out of 4 of those cases, the highways do not reach their control directly.  Of course, when leaving LV and you want to reach Reno, LA, or Phoenix you will start on those highways (US 95 north, I-15 south, and US 93 south) and then continue on by transferring (to U 50 and I-80, I-10, and US 60).  Aren't these controls far better than restricting yourself to cities that are on the highway like Fallon, Ontario, and Wickenburg?

So to sum up:  I'm all for having two controls local and long-distance, so long as the long-distance control is well-known.  But if there is only room on the sign for one control, the long-distance control should take precedence.



* Yes i-15 north hits the corner of AZ, but almost all of what people know about AZ would be in the direction of I-11 south including the Grand Canyon, and all major AZ cities and continuations towards NM and TX.

[Kniwt]

The controls at the LV Spaghetti Bowl are perfect.

Don't forget Tonopah.

[skluth]

The controls at the LV Spaghetti Bowl are perfect.

Don't forget Tonopah.

That sign is awful. It looks like you need to be in one lane for Reno and the other for Tonopah. It may be the angle, but I also think 'Reno' and 'Tonopah' aren't vertically aligned.

[djsekani]

Don't forget Tonopah.

That sign is awful. It looks like you need to be in one lane for Reno and the other for Tonopah. It may be the angle, but I also think 'Reno' and 'Tonopah' aren't vertically aligned.

They could've done it better like this:

[MNHighwayMan]

Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.

[sparker]

Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.

Question: does NDOT maintain the same sign height restrictions as Caltrans?  Including the pix of signs on I-515 and I-11, I don't recall seeing any particularly tall signs within NV.

[mrsman]

Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.

Vertical is far better, but the slash can work if there are height issues in the sign.

It would be off-topic to mention that having Anaheim as the control here is extremely confusing as Anaheim exists both to the east and west of this point (the northern terminus of CA 55).  And most of Anaheim's destinations like the stadiums, downtown, and Disneyland are to the west.  IMO, Anaheim should be joined with LA on 91 west OR Anaheim replaced with Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda, or Corona which area all to the east.