I-515/I-11 Control City discussion

[djsekani]

Vertical is far better, but the slash can work if there are height issues in the sign.

It would be off-topic to mention that having Anaheim as the control here is extremely confusing as Anaheim exists both to the east and west of this point (the northern terminus of CA 55).  And most of Anaheim's destinations like the stadiums, downtown, and Disneyland are to the west.  IMO, Anaheim should be joined with LA on 91 west OR Anaheim replaced with Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda, or Corona which area all to the east.

I was pointing out the aesthetics. The control city is weird since the part of Anaheim that most people care about (the resort area) is actually in the opposite direction, but who cares about little details like that.

[Gnutella]

My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known.  This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix

Nexus 5X

I'm a big proponent of using two control cities if one of them is a small town at a major junction. The signs should say Kingman/Phoenix until Kingman. After that, Phoenix can stand alone. This approach would also be useful for long segments of Interstate without major cities, like I-70 in Kansas and I-80 in Pennsylvania. On I-70 eastbound in Kansas, the control cities can be Hays/Kansas City, Salina/Kansas City, Topeka/Kansas City, and then Kansas City alone. On I-80 eastbound in Pennsylvania, the control cities can be Clarion/New York, State College/New York, Williamsport/New York, Hazleton/New York, and then New York alone.

No love for Wickenburg?

Seriously, 2 controls is preferred, but I know there's a preference in mutcd for 1 control to limit message loading.  I personally never believed it to be as big of a problem as they do and I bemoan the fact that many  cities are being removed from exit signs as in California (Balboa Blvd Encino).



Nexus 5X

I figured that Wickenburg is basically an exurb of Phoenix at this point. Maybe I'm wrong, though. It's about the same distance from Phoenix as Casa Grande.

[Plutonic Panda]

Will there ever be enough demand to extend I-17 north to I-15 to connect Phoenix to SLC or will that traffic just use I-11 and go through Vegas?

[Verlanka]

Will there ever be enough demand to extend I-17 north to I-15 to connect Phoenix to SLC or will that traffic just use I-11 and go through Vegas?

Nope. The traffic counts on US 89 are too low.

[US 89]

Will there ever be enough demand to extend I-17 north to I-15 to connect Phoenix to SLC or will that traffic just use I-11 and go through Vegas?

Nope. The traffic counts on US 89 are too low.

And even if the traffic on it were to go up significantly, even four-laning that road would be quite an expensive engineering proposition, especially the part in Utah where you've got terrain to deal with. There's also quite a bit of protected land along the 89 corridor that could cause headaches, like the Grand Staircase National Monument. But the single biggest issue for any I-17 extension is probably the massive cost of a new Colorado River bridge crossing.

The current preferred route from Phoenix to Salt Lake is I-17 to US 89 to UT 20 to I-15 (though this may change as I-11 is gradually built). That route is largely fine as is, but I will say US 89 in Arizona should probably be 4-laned up to US 160.

[roadfro]

Don't forget Tonopah.

That sign is awful. It looks like you need to be in one lane for Reno and the other for Tonopah. It may be the angle, but I also think 'Reno' and 'Tonopah' aren't vertically aligned.

They could've done it better like this:

Note that the Tonopah control city has disappeared from most signage in the Las Vegas area. There is only one other pull-through sign on northbound US 95 (at Craig Road), and I'm pretty sure that sign dates to the mid-1990s (when the US 95 freeway ended just north of Craig Road).

Also note that the "slash" solution actually goes against MUTCD recommendations. Guidance in 2A.13 p05 (repeated at 2E.17 p03) states: "The solidus (slanted line or forward slash) is intended to be used for fractions only and should not be used to separate words on the same line of legend. Instead, a hyphen should be used for this purpose, such as "TRUCKS - BUSES." "

Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.

Question: does NDOT maintain the same sign height restrictions as Caltrans?  Including the pix of signs on I-515 and I-11, I don't recall seeing any particularly tall signs within NV.

The Tonopah/Reno sign being discussed dates to the late 1990s Spaghetti Bowl reconstruction project, so it is no newer than 1999 (which also helps explain its condition). NDOT used to follow maximum sign height policy similar to Caltrans in which the sign height was capped at the truss frame height. This sign was manufactured in that era.

Note that the signs in that image are currently are raised above the horizontal members of the truss frame. This was a result of the signs being remounted higher up for better visibility when old fluorescent lighting fixtures were changed to high pressure sodium fixtures. (Sign structures installed after the lighting conversion mounted the catwalk lower than the bottom horizontal truss members, so the bottom of signs can align with the truss.) According to my recollection, it was shortly after NDOT made the lighting changes (which resulted in many existing signs peeking over the top of sign trusses across the Vegas area) that NDOT started allowing slightly taller signs.

Nowadays, NDOT does still maintain sign height standards. Whereas Caltrans I think will keep to 120 inches in most cases, NDOT's 2017 Standard Plans now include taller truss frame specifications to accommodate signs with a maximum height of 160 inches. However, NDOT is still similar to Caltrans in that all signs on a single sign bridge tend to be the same height.

The only particularly tall signs in Nevada are the few true arrow-per-lane signs the state has. This includes the four on I-80 approaching the Reno Spaghetti Bowl (which do not use NDOT's standard trusses), and the two new signs on northbound I-15 approaching I-515/US 95 installed as part of Project Neon (which are on NDOT standard trusses). There's also the two sets of signs on the southbound McCarran Airport Connector/SR 171 in Las Vegas with some very-tall-for-the-truss-used signs and are also a rare example of signs on a truss being different heights (street view) — the signs here were installed on the Clark County-administered SB connector>EB 215 flyover project, which might explain the signage peculiarity.


EDIT 4/2/19: Added underlined section (forgot about those signs).

[Sub-Urbanite]

Not-so-random musing: Can anyone find the contract # for the new signs? I can't track it down on the NDOT site but maybe someone else is more skilled than i.

[roadfro]

Not-so-random musing: Can anyone find the contract # for the new signs? I can't track it down on the NDOT site but maybe someone else is more skilled than i.

I was trying to find it myself, but had no luck. They might be doing it in-house.

[Sub-Urbanite]

Not-so-random musing: Can anyone find the contract # for the new signs? I can't track it down on the NDOT site but maybe someone else is more skilled than i.

I was trying to find it myself, but had no luck. They might be doing it in-house.

I thought so too, but per the NDOT press release:

North Las Vegas-based Highway Striping & Signs LLC is the general contractor. Work will occur nightly from 9 p.m. until 5 a.m., Sunday evening through Friday morning. The $160,000 contract calls for removing and replacing freeway signs over a 22-mile area due to age, damage, and new language with the Interstate 11 designation

[roadfro]

^ I spent some more time searching. This contract is conspicuously absent from NDOT's active/awarded contracts database

[SoCal Kid]

Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?

[Plutonic Panda]

Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?

I believe it will cross I-40 around Kingsman, AZ.

[SoCal Kid]

Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?

I believe it will cross I-40 around Kingsman, AZ.

Got it, so drivers will have to take I-40 east to get to I-17 to Phoenix

[Roadwarriors79]

Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?

I-11 will most likely be cosigned with I-40 in the area that is now shared by I-40 and US 93.

[SoCal Kid]

Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?

I-11 will most likely be cosigned with I-40 in the area that is now shared by I-40 and US 93.

Sounds reasonable as I-11 is supposed to be where US 93 is right now from AZ to Las Vegas

[Roadwarriors79]

Well, well, well, look what just showed up. Kingman!

For now, I suppose Kingman makes sense. If you go further south into Arizona, Kingman is the control city used on US 93 until you get into the Kingman city limits, just north of I-40.

It's funny that NDOT has decided to sign Kingman here, because knowing how ADOT typically signs interstates, if I-11 was a full freeway from the Nevada line to the Phoenix area, Kingman would probably be skipped as a control city. ADOT would use Phoenix southbound and Las Vegas northbound.

[Sub-Urbanite]

OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:

https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2

What's funny here is:

1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.

[roadfro]

OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:

https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2

What's funny here is:

1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.

If I had to guess, the original sign was likely placed here back when the freeway ended at this Boulder Highway interchange, so southbound traffic continuing on US 93/95 would have seen this sign.

That is a replace-in-kind, given the mixed case legend. Similar mileage signs statewide previously used all-caps until after the 2009 MUTCD came out.

To be fair, NDOT has been notoriously inconsistent with destinations on mileage signs like this though–and often tends to use closer controls. For example, despite Reno being used as the control city for northbound US 95 within the Las Vegas Valley, it'll be quite some time before Reno appears on a mileage sign–even after passing Tonopah, some distance signs will include Reno on the bottom while others will use Hawthorne or Fallon.

[JustDrive]

OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:

https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2

What's funny here is:

1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.

If I had to guess, the original sign was likely placed here back when the freeway ended at this Boulder Highway interchange, so southbound traffic continuing on US 93/95 would have seen this sign.

That is a replace-in-kind, given the mixed case legend. Similar mileage signs statewide previously used all-caps until after the 2009 MUTCD came out.

To be fair, NDOT has been notoriously inconsistent with destinations on mileage signs like this though–and often tends to use closer controls. For example, despite Reno being used as the control city for northbound US 95 within the Las Vegas Valley, it'll be quite some time before Reno appears on a mileage sign–even after passing Tonopah, some distance signs will include Reno on the bottom while others will use Hawthorne or Fallon.

Or like when Needles is signed on SB US 95 once it enters Clark County

[Sub-Urbanite]

OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:

https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2

What's funny here is:

1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.

If I had to guess, the original sign was likely placed here back when the freeway ended at this Boulder Highway interchange, so southbound traffic continuing on US 93/95 would have seen this sign.

That is a replace-in-kind, given the mixed case legend. Similar mileage signs statewide previously used all-caps until after the 2009 MUTCD came out.

To be fair, NDOT has been notoriously inconsistent with destinations on mileage signs like this though–and often tends to use closer controls. For example, despite Reno being used as the control city for northbound US 95 within the Las Vegas Valley, it'll be quite some time before Reno appears on a mileage sign–even after passing Tonopah, some distance signs will include Reno on the bottom while others will use Hawthorne or Fallon.

Or like when Needles is signed on SB US 95 once it enters Clark County

I only know of extant Needles sign. https://goo.gl/maps/fR6j8hXx1588v7Qx9

[ClassicHasClass]

Needles turns up on distance signage past the US 93 split south. It appears fairly regularly; see, among others, http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/95/u4/#img_4

[mrsman]

Needles turns up on distance signage past the US 93 split south. It appears fairly regularly; see, among others, http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/95/u4/#img_4

If one had the need of putting in the controls for both 93 and 95 then it is appropriate to have Ely/Reno NB and Phoenix/Needles SB on the joint 93/95 just east of I-15.  But since so much of the traffic is headed on 95 north or 93 south, IMO Reno and Phoenix are the only ones really needed here.

In a similar vein, I-15 and US 93 multiplex for a little while on the north side of Las Vegas.  IIRC, this is usually signed as only Salt Lake City, not Ely/Salt Lake City.

I'm sure there are many examples of this along freeway multiplexes across the country.  Another one that comes to mind is along the old US 99/US 6 as the Golden State Fwy in the LA area was being built.  The northern control was only Bakersfield not Palmdale/Bakersfield.  US 6 never went to Bakersfield.

[roadfro]

Or like when Needles is signed on SB US 95 once it enters Clark County

You'll only see Needles on two southbound US 95 mileage signs that far north: one right past Indian Springs, and another just after SR 156–both mark distance to Las Vegas, Henderson & Needles. Note that I'm fairly sure these are the only long-distance mileage signs between the Nye/Clark County Line and the northern edge of Las Vegas.

I only know of extant Needles sign. https://goo.gl/maps/fR6j8hXx1588v7Qx9

You forgot it's counterpart on the other side of the interchange: https://goo.gl/maps/2rNZXKq9cEghzdUP6

When I was younger, this SB I-515/US 93/US 95 pull-through sign in downtown Las Vegas used Phoenix & Needles.

Needles turns up on distance signage past the US 93 split south. It appears fairly regularly; see, among others, http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/95/u4/#img_4

At that point, Needles makes perfect sense. Once US 95 leaves US 93 in Boulder City, the only real places of interest are Searchlight, Cal-Nev-Ari (only after Searchlight), Laughlin and Needles. So Needles makes sense as the long-distance control city in that southern stretch.

What is interesting to me is that the US 95 south exit from US 93 used to be signed "Searchlight, Needles" and it is now (after I-11 construction) just signed "Searchlight". That's in line with recent trends reducing to a single control city though. (I'd think they'd want to sign this for Laughlin--probably more traffic going there than either Searchlight or Needles.)