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Author Topic: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?  (Read 1869 times)

hbelkins

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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 07:30:06 PM »

I don't care if they're numbered as even or odd 3DIs. As long as they're not labeled 2DIs like I-12 or I-97.

What should I-12 be?

I-10. The loop into NO should be I-6.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 09:43:17 PM »

I don't care if they're numbered as even or odd 3DIs. As long as they're not labeled 2DIs like I-12 or I-97.

What should I-12 be?  At 87 miles long it would fit into the typical realm of intra-state Interstate routes.
I-10N.

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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2019, 10:39:17 PM »

There is so much inconsistency and illogic to the way highways are numbered that I've given up on trying to believe that there is an intelligent set of guiding principles to their numbering.  Never mind the problems with US and state highway numbering; let's just look at the (mostly relevant) issues with Interstate highway numbering:

  • Personally, I would prefer 3DIs where both ends are at an Interstate to begin with an even number, even if it terminates at two different Interstates, except when all the even numbers are taken.  Examples of my preferred method are Interstates 276 and 476 in Pennsylvania, 255 and 270 in MO and IL, and 235 and 635 in KS (and MO in 635's case).
  • Examples of doing it the other way are Interstate 376 in Pennsylvania, I-170 in MO (yet people care that 370 doesn't start with an even number?), and 135 and 335 in KS.
  • Now what about all those 2DIs that follow an unnecessarily inefficient route?  I'm mostly looking at I-10 in New Orleans and I-90 in Albany.  At least Pennsylvania had the good sense not to route I-76 off of the Turnpike and through Pittsburgh.
  • What about every 2DI that's shorter than I-476 or I-135?
  • What about those pairs of 3DIs that effectively form a single route?  I'm talking about I-494 and 694 in Minnesota, and I-275 and 696 in Michigan.
  • What's the deal with I-41?  This could have easily been a northern extension of I-57, but it just had to have its own number!  And now they're proposing a southern extension of I-57?
  • Having different 2DI segments with the same number is understandable when we're talking about routes that are in vastly different geographic regions.  But then along came I-49, 69, 73, and 74 to mess that up!
  • Lettered suffixes were okay at first.  But then they weren't, unless they were in the Twin Cities or the DFW area.  And now they are again, because somehow I-69 is really important!
  • I-99 and I-238 should officially compete for a green sign reading "Dead Horse Memorial Highway."

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TheStranger

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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2019, 11:08:37 PM »

There is so much inconsistency and illogic to the way highways are numbered that I've given up on trying to believe that there is an intelligent set of guiding principles to their numbering.  Never mind the problems with US and state highway numbering; let's just look at the (mostly relevant) issues with Interstate highway numbering:

  • Personally, I would prefer 3DIs where both ends are at an Interstate to begin with an even number, even if it terminates at two different Interstates, except when all the even numbers are taken.  Examples of my preferred method are Interstates 276 and 476 in Pennsylvania, 255 and 270 in MO and IL, and 235 and 635 in KS (and MO in 635's case).
  • Examples of doing it the other way are Interstate 376 in Pennsylvania, I-170 in MO (yet people care that 370 doesn't start with an even number?), and 135 and 335 in KS.
  • Now what about all those 2DIs that follow an unnecessarily inefficient route?  I'm mostly looking at I-10 in New Orleans and I-90 in Albany.  At least Pennsylvania had the good sense not to route I-76 off of the Turnpike and through Pittsburgh.
  • What about every 2DI that's shorter than I-476 or I-135?
  • What about those pairs of 3DIs that effectively form a single route?  I'm talking about I-494 and 694 in Minnesota, and I-275 and 696 in Michigan.
  • What's the deal with I-41?  This could have easily been a northern extension of I-57, but it just had to have its own number!  And now they're proposing a southern extension of I-57?
  • Having different 2DI segments with the same number is understandable when we're talking about routes that are in vastly different geographic regions.  But then along came I-49, 69, 73, and 74 to mess that up!
  • Lettered suffixes were okay at first.  But then they weren't, unless they were in the Twin Cities or the DFW area.  And now they are again, because somehow I-69 is really important!
  • I-99 and I-238 should officially compete for a green sign reading "Dead Horse Memorial Highway."


- I-76 once did go into Pittsburgh if I'm not mistaken (though pretty much all of the former I-80S from Ohio east is now I-76).  If we are to go by "efficency" only, then should I-75 even go into Detroit instead of just simply following US 23 between Toledo and Flint?

- 275/696 aren't really one corridor at all, even though they share a common terminus at I-96.  494/694 has a bit of a rectangular/oval configuration not unlike I-280/680 in the San Francisco Bay Area so I can see why there are separate numbers for each half.

- 49 and 69 are supposed to eventually have all their segments connected. 
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2019, 11:21:31 PM »

As for crossing the parent route twice but continuing beyond it to terminate at another destination...

Interstate 264 in Hampton Roads, Virginia stretches from I-64 at Bowers Hill in Chesapeake, through Downtown Norfolk where it meets I-464, then meets back up with I-64 east of Downtown. But then it keeps going east until terminating at the Virginia Beach Oceanfront.

Interstate 295 in the Richmond area is similar, where it branches off I-95 south of Petersburg, crosses I-64 east of Richmond, meets back with I-95 north of Richmond, but then continues west to finally terminate at I-64 west of Richmond.

As for branching off one interstate and linking up to another interstate...

Interstate 285 (even-numbered) connects Interstate 85 at Lexington, North Carolina to Interstate 40 in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. It branches off I-85 once, and never meets back, though connects to another interstate.

Interstate 274 (proposed, not official, so could change) (even-numbered) would connect Interstate 74 (currently under construction) north of Winston-Salem to Interstate 40 west of Winston-Salem.

The short-lived Interstate 495 (even-numbered) was planned to connect I-40 at Raleigh, North Carolina to I-95 at Rocky Mount, North Carolina. This designation, however, has been deleted and replaced with Interstate 87, which would extend the I-495 routing all the way to Hampton Roads, Virginia via Elizabeth City. But the point still stands... it was an even numbered designation planned to link two different interstates.

On the contrary, Interstate 795 (odd-numbered), when completed, will connect Interstate 95 at Wilson, North Carolina to Interstate 40 at Faison, North Carolina.

Interstate 587 connects Interstate 87 at Zebulon, North Carolina to Interstate 95 at Wilson, North Carolina, though does continue east until terminating at Greensville, North Carolina at a non-interstate.

The interstate 274 example should fall under the "beyond" category, it supposed to end at US-158
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2019, 06:32:16 PM »

  • What's the deal with I-41?  This could have easily been a northern extension of I-57, but it just had to have its own number!  And now they're proposing a southern extension of I-57?

IDOT wanted nothing to do with making I-41 a northern extension of I-57. The same thing was also proposed when I-43 was built, but again Illinois didn't go along with it. I agree that I-41 should've been called something else, but for that to happen Illinois would've had to agree with it in the first place. And if I-41 was called I-57, then I-43 would've been east of I-57 except for the part southwest of Milwaukee, which would mostly conflict with the interstate grid. I honestly think that I-43 should've ultimately been called I-57 (with I-41 being either I-53 or a northern extension of I-55), but you can't change history, so we had to make the best of it. For Wisconsin the numbers 39, 41, and 43 make sense, but if Illinois actually went along the grid wouldn't be fucked up here like it is now.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:57:01 PM by MantyMadTown »
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2019, 06:50:19 PM »

  • Now what about all those 2DIs that follow an unnecessarily inefficient route?  I'm mostly looking at I-10 in New Orleans and I-90 in Albany.  At least Pennsylvania had the good sense not to route I-76 off of the Turnpike and through Pittsburgh.
I think this is mostly for travelers to only have to follow one number to get to a big city. In New Orleans, they could've just put I-10 on I-12, and renumbered the I-10 section to I-6 or I-810. Same thing happens in Massachusetts, they could have easily terminated I-93 at I-95 in Reading, and numbered the Canton-Reading portion as I-695.

I-90 takes a pretty much straight forward route through Albany.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2019, 07:48:24 PM »

I-90 takes a pretty much straight forward route through Albany.

But unless you're going to Albany, it's more efficient to follow the New York State Thruway (unless you're adamant about shunpiking).
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vdeane

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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2019, 07:52:03 PM »

I-90 takes a pretty much straight forward route through Albany.

But unless you're going to Albany, it's more efficient to follow the New York State Thruway (unless you're adamant about shunpiking).
Mileage-wise it's about the same each way (actually about a mile shorter going through Albany rather than staying on the Thruway, doing a rough estimate in Google Maps).  You wouldn't even notice it if it weren't for the Thruway, the interchanges at either end of free 90, or the toll booths.  Certainly not in the same league as I-10 through New Orleans.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2019, 05:36:10 PM »

+1 here for even numbers.

IMO, odd numbers should be reserved for Interstates that basically end somewhere.

OTOH, I would also be in favor of eliminating any distinction between odd and even, and also eliminating parent- child-highway numering...


So in the case of I-135 or I-335 in Kansas or I-196 in Michigan, you would have them be an even number?

I think using an odd number for these kind of routes is perfectly fine because the are connecting to other urban areas. Wichita-Salina, Emporia-Topeka, Benton Harbor/St Joseph-Holland/Muskegon but are too short to use as a single or two digit number.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2019, 07:01:33 AM »


So in the case of I-135 or I-335 in Kansas or I-196 in Michigan, you would have them be an even number?

I-196 originally was a spur - it was the portion of I-96 that goes from Grand Rapids to Muskegon.

But since what is now I-196 didn't get built for a number of years, they decided to flip the route numbers so 96 wouldn't randomly turn into 196 on the east side of GR.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2019, 08:23:21 AM »

I think using an odd number for these kind of routes is perfectly fine because the are connecting to other urban areas. Wichita-Salina, Emporia-Topeka, Benton Harbor/St Joseph-Holland/Muskegon but are too short to use as a single or two digit number.
If that's the case, then I-476 should be renumbered I-776 or I-976 (I-576 is already taken).
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2019, 08:25:41 AM »

I think using an odd number for these kind of routes is perfectly fine because the are connecting to other urban areas. Wichita-Salina, Emporia-Topeka, Benton Harbor/St Joseph-Holland/Muskegon but are too short to use as a single or two digit number.
If that's the case, then I-476 should be renumbered I-776 or I-976 (I-576 is already taken).

I would actually prefer 181.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2019, 08:56:18 AM »

CA's 3di's are odd ducks indeed; only 3 (215, 405, 805) intersect their parent twice, 1 even 2di (605) intersects its parent in the middle.  The remainder, whether odd or even prefix, are a mix of parental single intersects or even branches of other 3di's (105, 380, 980).  And to top it off, we've got one (580) that multiplexes with its parent for a bit.  And, of course, the Voldemort of Interstates -- the number that shall not be repeated  -- hint -- it's an orphan (parentless) and is the other Interstate (besides 980) connecting 580 and 880; the only reason for its existence is as a truck-route alternative to I-580, which forbids them (east of downtown) in Oakland.   Blame topology, bodies of water, and, of course, politics for these configurations.     
I-238




I-280 is another interstate that does not touch its parent interstate though given that its only 1/4 mile from the Bay Bridge and was originally going to connect with CA-480 though but that was cancelled though. 
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2019, 08:59:46 AM »

I-280 is another interstate that does not touch its parent interstate though given that its only 1/4 mile from the Bay Bridge and was originally going to connect with CA-480 though but that was cancelled though.

If it doesn't touch any 2dis at all, nothing can be done to fix it.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2019, 11:51:50 AM »

I think using an odd number for these kind of routes is perfectly fine because the are connecting to other urban areas. Wichita-Salina, Emporia-Topeka, Benton Harbor/St Joseph-Holland/Muskegon but are too short to use as a single or two digit number.
If that's the case, then I-476 should be renumbered I-776 or I-976 (I-576 is already taken).
I would just swap the 376 and 476 designations in PA
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2019, 01:25:15 PM »

+1 here for even numbers.

IMO, odd numbers should be reserved for Interstates that basically end somewhere.

OTOH, I would also be in favor of eliminating any distinction between odd and even, and also eliminating parent- child-highway numering...


So in the case of I-135 or I-335 in Kansas or I-196 in Michigan, you would have them be an even number?

I-135 shouldn't exist at all.  It should just be US-81.

I-335 should be an even 3di because it is basically serves as part of an alternate route between KS and Wichita.  Let's call it I-835.

You might have me convinced with I-196, but I could still easily go with I-896 instead.

However, as I mentioned, my actual preference (except that what I said about I-135 is still absolutely true) would be to eliminate any distinction between even and odd 3dis:  just use whatever number is available and don't worry about whether it's a loop or a spur.  And I also hate parent-child numbering.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2019, 02:57:57 PM »

I-135 shouldn't exist at all.  It should just be US-81.

It should actually be part of an I-35 which runs from Laredo, TX to Pembina, ND, but that's a different subject.  :-P
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2019, 03:45:59 PM »

Loops/beltways should be even even if only one end is at the parent (e.g. both I-291s, I-290 MA as it forms two "legs", I-495 MA), while anything taking nearly a straight line that goes into a large city instead of around should be odd (e.g. I-195 MA/RI, I-395 MA/CT).

I-290 was originally supposed to continue past I-495 and reconnect with I-90 in Framingham.  I-495 originally ended at I-95 in Mansfield and was later extended to I-195 in Wareham.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2019, 03:36:28 PM »

- I-76 once did go into Pittsburgh if I'm not mistaken (though pretty much all of the former I-80S from Ohio east is now I-76).
Correct, I-76 went into Pittsburgh until 1972 when it shifted onto its current routing (replacing I-80S).  The old I-76 west of the PA Turnpike's Exit 57 (Pittsburgh interchange) became the current I-376.
_____________________________________
The issue with the current odd/even 3dis and their intended assignments/designations is that there are more odd 3di numbers (1XX, 3XX, 5XX, 7XX & 9XX) available then even 3di numbers (2XX, 4XX, 6XX & 8XX); but there are more bypasses/beltways/through-city routes (typical candidates for even 3dis) out there than there are spur routes (typical odd 3dis).

Note: not an intended plug, mind you; but given the above, I created Odd-Even 3DI Swap thread in the Fictional Section over a year ago as a what if? exercise.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 03:48:02 PM by PHLBOS »
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2019, 03:48:28 PM »

The issue with the current odd/even 3dis and their intended assignments/designations is that there are more odd 3di numbers (1XX, 3XX, 5XX, 7XX & 9XX) available then even 3di numbers (2XX, 4XX, 6XX & 8XX);

Very few 9XX numbers are in use.

but there are more bypasses/beltways/through-city routes (typical candidates for even 3dis) out there than there are spur routes (typical odd 3dis).

The method that I mentioned before gives more odd numbers than even numbers. Let's take Connecticut's freeway system as an example. CT 8 is pretty clearly odd, and it would be odd even (no pun intended) if it went to the Mass Pike. (If it went to MA 57, possibly not.) CT 2 and CT 9 would be odd, as they connect the Hartford metro area to another smaller metro area by a near-straight line. I-384, CT 11, CT 40, CT 25, CT 2A, US 6 bypass near RI, both freeway segments of US 7, and the airport connector are spurs, and therefore get odd numbers. I-684 should be odd as a route out of the NYC area, although it's only in CT for about a mile.

This leaves the existing 2dis, CT 15 (functions more as a 2di if you ignore the truck restrictions), I-291 (correctly even), I-691 (could go either way; it's both a Hartford bypass and a straight line), CT 72 (half spur half bypass), the Milford Connector (doesn't need a number), CT/RI 78 (even), US 6 bypass of Willimantic (nowhere near an Interstate), CT 3 (even), and CT 2 near Foxwoods (CT 2 is sufficient). Of those, I listed 3 even and 2 that could go either way, while I listed many odd ones above.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2019, 04:13:36 PM »

I don't care if they're numbered as even or odd 3DIs. As long as they're not labeled 2DIs like I-12 or I-97.

What should I-12 be?

I-10. The loop into NO should be I-6.

I agree I-12 should be I-10. However, I'd extend I-55 and I-59 into New Orleans rather than ending them in LaPlace and Slidell. The stretch between Baton Rouge and LaPlace would be a 3DI of either I-10 or I-55. If the I-10 section along Claiborne Avenue is removed (which is more probable than you might think), have I-55 end at the Mississippi River and I-59 end at I-55 west of City Park.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2019, 06:16:08 PM »

Wikipedia

That's your first mistake right there.  :bigass:
?

Wikipedia articles on roads are pretty accurate. There are no issues with POV pushing or living person biographies, and vandalism is relatively rare compared to more popular and more controversial articles.
Isn't some of the Wikipedia articles written by NE2?  That might explain why they are accurate cause he is pretty good about roads and history about them.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2019, 06:25:51 PM »

- I-76 once did go into Pittsburgh if I'm not mistaken (though pretty much all of the former I-80S from Ohio east is now I-76).
Correct, I-76 went into Pittsburgh until 1972 when it shifted onto its current routing (replacing I-80S).  The old I-76 west of the PA Turnpike's Exit 57 (Pittsburgh interchange) became the current I-376.
_____________________________________
The issue with the current odd/even 3dis and their intended assignments/designations is that there are more odd 3di numbers (1XX, 3XX, 5XX, 7XX & 9XX) available then even 3di numbers (2XX, 4XX, 6XX & 8XX); but there are more bypasses/beltways/through-city routes (typical candidates for even 3dis) out there than there are spur routes (typical odd 3dis).

Note: not an intended plug, mind you; but given the above, I created Odd-Even 3DI Swap thread in the Fictional Section over a year ago as a what if? exercise.
  Also when I-76 ended in Pittsburgh, I-79 used the planned I-279 (as that freeway was not yet constructed north of the Allegeny River and the current I-79 from I-376 to I-279 was to be I-279. 

Just like in Philly with I-76 and I-676 PennDOT flipped the route numbers with I-79.

Of course I-70 also was planned to be through Pittsburgh as well, and that got shifted onto what it is now including the non interstate standard freeway from Washington to New Stanton.
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Re: Should auxiliary Interstates be numbered like spurs or like bypasses?
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2019, 08:54:47 PM »

If that's the case, then I-476 should be renumbered I-776 or I-976 (I-576 is already taken).
I would just swap the 376 and 476 designations in PA

I always favored an I-x95 for the western bypass of Philadelphia.  So the Mid-County Expressway would be I-695 and the Turnpike between Plymouth Meeting and I-95 at Bristol would be I-695.

The Turnpike between Valley Forge and Plymouth Meeting could still be I-276.
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