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Author Topic: Argentina  (Read 1980 times)

kphoger

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2019, 05:10:18 PM »

Such is quite rare east of the Mississippi ... You may remember our discussion several months ago

That discussion in which I said "it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area"?  Yep, I remember.  From 1999 to 2000, I attended a university in River Forest (from which suburb you can literally throw a rock into Chicago city limits);  there are uncontrolled four-way intersections a mere one block away from college campus there.  From about 2002 to 2006, I lived in a 6-flat apartment building in Wheaton (suburban Chicago) that is situated at the corner of an uncontrolled T intersection.  At the same time, my wife (who was not yet my wife) was a live-in nanny in Naperville (also suburban Chicago), and that family's house is situated on a cul-de-sac that had an uncontrolled intersection with the street it connected to.

Look, I'm not saying uncontrolled intersections aren't rare in the eastern USA.  I just couldn't stomach the assertion "No city in the US would ever have that" when, off the top of my head, I could name multiple uncontrolled intersections in the third-largest metro area in the US.  A city which, by the way, is decidedly east of the Mississippi.
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vdeane

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2019, 09:50:40 PM »

Heck, there are even a few in the Rochester suburbs that I never noticed because the intersections were so familiar that the abnormality never entered my mind.
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Alps

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2019, 08:36:28 AM »

Another interesting thing to note from some of these videos is the lack of stop/yield signs at many 4-way intersections.  It seems like, unless you are crossing a multi-lane street or you face a signalized intersection, every intersection is treated as an all-way yield.  First come, first served.
No city in the US would ever have that.  Even in rural areas, unless it is really secluded, you will see traffic control signs.
I live in the middle of a city whose population is nearly 400,000.  My house is between two uncontrolled intersections.

Such is quite rare east of the Mississippi, and especially in the Eastern time zone.
You may remember our discussion several months ago; I didn't even know such a thing existed until you posted some examples. I'll bet most people I know from this area and east would find it weird to have an uncontrolled intersection and wouldn't even know how it's supposed to function.
I'm from New Jersey and my parents' house is between uncontrolled intersections. It's treated as a "go unless you see someone".

Duke87

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2019, 08:52:10 PM »

Heck, there are even a few in the Rochester suburbs that I never noticed because the intersections were so familiar that the abnormality never entered my mind.

Indeed. The town in CT where I grew up has a good number of uncontrolled T-intersections where the street at the stem of the T is a dead end or cul-de-sac.

Not the sort of thing I really notice if I'm not explicitly looking for it since I don't in practice actually treat these intersections any differently than I would ones with a physical stop sign - in my mind the presence of one is implied by the intersection geometry even if there is not one explicitly there.

Now yes, legally speaking if the intersection is uncontrolled you do not need to come to a stop, you only need to yield to other vehicles if any are present. But let's be honest, this is no different from typical driver response to an actual stop sign.
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mrsman

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2019, 02:19:34 PM »

For a 4-way intersection, how is one supposed to know that it is uncontrolled on all sides?  In the places where I've lived, the general rule was that if there was no sign control on the street you were one, there were controls of some sort for the cross-street (stop or yield) to clearly define the right of way.

What makes it different in other places?  Is it the assumption that if you are driving 25 MPH or less that you can just basically stop if someone else is coming?  Is it the assumption that certain rural and suburban areas have so little traffic that it is simply unlikely that two cars will be crossing at the same time?

I can tell you that the video from Argentina that I watched upthread, that generated this discussion, seemed to be in a relatively busy area and the sudden stops that were apparent shows that a lot of close calls can happen without adequate control.  Perhaps they have different standards south of the border.
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Alps

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2019, 10:42:21 PM »

For a 4-way intersection, how is one supposed to know that it is uncontrolled on all sides?  In the places where I've lived, the general rule was that if there was no sign control on the street you were one, there were controls of some sort for the cross-street (stop or yield) to clearly define the right of way.

What makes it different in other places?  Is it the assumption that if you are driving 25 MPH or less that you can just basically stop if someone else is coming?  Is it the assumption that certain rural and suburban areas have so little traffic that it is simply unlikely that two cars will be crossing at the same time?

I can tell you that the video from Argentina that I watched upthread, that generated this discussion, seemed to be in a relatively busy area and the sudden stops that were apparent shows that a lot of close calls can happen without adequate control.  Perhaps they have different standards south of the border.
In low-speed neighborhoods, you should be keeping a careful enough eye on your surroundings to see a street coming up. Also, T's lend themselves better than +'s to uncontrol.

bing101

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2019, 07:11:30 AM »

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Beltway

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2019, 07:28:26 AM »

Another interesting thing to note from some of these videos is the lack of stop/yield signs at many 4-way intersections.  It seems like, unless you are crossing a multi-lane street or you face a signalized intersection, every intersection is treated as an all-way yield.  First come, first served.
No city in the US would ever have that.  Even in rural areas, unless it is really secluded, you will see traffic control signs.
I live in the middle of a city whose population is nearly 400,000.  My house is between two uncontrolled intersections.
I was dating someone in the Ocean View area of Norfolk in 1983, and the 4-way intersection down her street was uncontrolled.  Not sure about now as I don't remember the name of the street.

Seemed dangerous to me, as at first I didn't know that there were no stop or yield signs, and that I couldn't assume that the lack of such on my street means that the other street has one.
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Re: Argentina
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2019, 10:30:35 AM »

Another interesting thing to note from some of these videos is the lack of stop/yield signs at many 4-way intersections.  It seems like, unless you are crossing a multi-lane street or you face a signalized intersection, every intersection is treated as an all-way yield.  First come, first served.
No city in the US would ever have that.  Even in rural areas, unless it is really secluded, you will see traffic control signs.
I live in the middle of a city whose population is nearly 400,000.  My house is between two uncontrolled intersections.

Such is quite rare east of the Mississippi, and especially in the Eastern time zone.
You may remember our discussion several months ago; I didn't even know such a thing existed until you posted some examples. I'll bet most people I know from this area and east would find it weird to have an uncontrolled intersection and wouldn't even know how it's supposed to function.

My internship involves checking every intersection in Massachusetts where at least one road is non-residential and filling in data. (I'm not the only one doing it, so I don't have to do the whole state). 4-way uncontrolled intersections are somewhat common.
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bing101

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2019, 08:01:29 PM »

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Chris

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2019, 01:32:16 PM »

What about priority to the right. Is it a thing in Argentina?

In Europe it is common to varying degrees, while 4-way / all-way STOP signs are virtually non-existent. What you guys describe as 'uncontrolled' (i.e. no priority or STOP signs) would be priority to the right in most of Europe. Maybe it's the same in Argentina, although they are not a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic.

mrsman

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2019, 12:10:25 PM »

What about priority to the right. Is it a thing in Argentina?

In Europe it is common to varying degrees, while 4-way / all-way STOP signs are virtually non-existent. What you guys describe as 'uncontrolled' (i.e. no priority or STOP signs) would be priority to the right in most of Europe. Maybe it's the same in Argentina, although they are not a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic.

Perhaps you can explain a little how this works in Europe.  Is the basic assumption that any intersection without signage one that must give priority to the right?  Are the exceptions then signed with a yellow diamond, indicating that you indeed have right of way (despite who enters the intersection first) and that cross street traffic faces a stop or a yield?

I guess the basic question is whether it is clear who indeed has the right of way.  In the areas where I have lived, admittedly within the boundaries of the largest cities (and suburbs) in the US, the assumption was that if you don't see a stop or a yield, you have the right of way.  4-way stops are common and a form of priority on right exists to handle the situation if two cars approach on cross streets at the same time. 

Yet, there are other areas in the country (based on comments upthread) where this is not the case.  There are plenty of completely uncontrolled intersections where both sets of cross streets have equal right of way (like a 4-way stop without stopping) and a priority on right system exists.  These typically occur in rural areas and also in some suburban areas, generally on streets with low traffic volume and/or low traffic speed.  Nothing anywhere as busy as the streets in Argentina shown on these videos.

The main question is how is a driver supposed to know the difference.  How do you know whether or not you are on a road with priority over cross streets or on a road with equal priority to cross streets?  It is surprising that in the US, there is no clear answer.
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Chris

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2019, 01:40:17 PM »

I'd say most intersections in Europe have some kind of priority indicated, usually for the main road. In the Netherlands nearly everything in residential areas is priority to the right, this is seen as a tool for 'traffic calming'. However in Spain, Germany, Italy or France almost every intersection has a priority and yield situation, except on very low speed roads (like parking lots).

I don't recall having ever entered an intersection that works on a first come, first go basis, like the all-way stops in North America.

For example, this sign means you have priority.


This sign means you have to yield to all conflicting traffic (left and right).


And of course the stop sign, usually on locations where stopping is needed to get a clear view and safe passage (and you have to yield to all traffic until the road is clear).


mrsman

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2019, 04:19:13 PM »

I'd say most intersections in Europe have some kind of priority indicated, usually for the main road. In the Netherlands nearly everything in residential areas is priority to the right, this is seen as a tool for 'traffic calming'. However in Spain, Germany, Italy or France almost every intersection has a priority and yield situation, except on very low speed roads (like parking lots).

I don't recall having ever entered an intersection that works on a first come, first go basis, like the all-way stops in North America.


IMO, this is far better than what exists in the USA.  It would be so much better if every intersection had one direction with a clear priority.  The only time that priority should change would be at a traffic signal.

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bing101

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2019, 09:06:11 AM »


Here is a new freeway video by Fed Sher in Argentina.

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Kniwt

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2019, 11:25:23 AM »

Here is a new freeway video by Fed Sher in Argentina.

What does the "diamond-E" painted on (usually) the #2 lane mean? It's obviously not related to parking, but I'm otherwise stumped.
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mrsman

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2019, 12:05:47 PM »

Like the use of signals on the near side of mast arms along many of the major streets.

Not liking the sudden loss of a left lane to accommodate a left turn lane in the reverse direction in several places.  See 12:49 where the driver runs the red light for one example.
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Alps

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2019, 01:42:31 PM »

Here is a new freeway video by Fed Sher in Argentina.

What does the "diamond-E" painted on (usually) the #2 lane mean? It's obviously not related to parking, but I'm otherwise stumped.
I had asked about this and I think it was related to emergency vehicles - if you see sirens, clear that lane for them.

mrsman

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2019, 03:05:55 PM »

Here is a new freeway video by Fed Sher in Argentina.

What does the "diamond-E" painted on (usually) the #2 lane mean? It's obviously not related to parking, but I'm otherwise stumped.
I had asked about this and I think it was related to emergency vehicles - if you see sirens, clear that lane for them.
This makes sense.  It is somewhat similar to the fire Lanes in New York City.  how many of the avenues and certain wider streets it isn't the left lane that is reserved for emergency vehicles or rather one of the central lanes.  Perhaps, just like in America, the normal rule is to clear the left lane for emergency vehicles but there are certain exceptions where the second lane is preferred.

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Kniwt

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Re: Argentina
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2019, 02:22:33 AM »

What does the "diamond-E" painted on (usually) the #2 lane mean? It's obviously not related to parking, but I'm otherwise stumped.
I had asked about this and I think it was related to emergency vehicles - if you see sirens, clear that lane for them.

Sure enough, that's it. Knowing the answer, I was able to do a better search, and I found it in the Buenos Aires drivers' manual:
https://www.buenosaires.gob.ar/sites/gcaba/files/manual_del_conductor_22_de_julio-comprimido_4.pdf

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