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Author Topic: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend  (Read 5143 times)

royo6022

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #75 on: October 09, 2019, 12:03:24 AM »

There's likely something in state law that prevents anything with at-grade connections being posted above 60 mph. But I agree, 65 mph or even 70 mph is appropriate for both US-31, the US-231 stretch I mentioned, and other roads in the state.

Yes, see IC 9-21-5-2 on http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017/ic/titles/009#9-21-5.

I cannot speak for the stretch of US 231, but the rural 60 mph portions of US 41 certainly have widespread disobedience of the 60 mph limit.  I would estimate at least 75% is doing 70 or greater.

US 231 South of I 64 is marked as 60 mph, which is completely idiotic. Other than a couple well-marked county road turn-offs and one ground level State Road 70 turn-off, it's basically an Interstate. The speed limit there should be 70mph as well as US 41 should be from I 64 to Vincennes. As far as US 231 North of I 64, since it is mostly just a 2-lane at least as far as to I 69, the speed limit should be that of a typical two-lane state highway. US 231 from I 64 north is just a never-ending nightmare anyways, I'm surprised they just now are starting more extended studies on the Midstate Corridor... but that's for another thread :)
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sprjus4

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2019, 05:39:39 PM »

US 231 South of I 64 is marked as 60 mph, which is completely idiotic. Other than a couple well-marked county road turn-offs and one ground level State Road 70 turn-off, it's basically an Interstate. The speed limit there should be 70mph
It's more interesting the fact that the roadway was only built in the past decade as a relocation / upgrade of the 2-lane US-231. It's a limited-access roadway with private driveways prohibited, and a few intersections and an interchange. The rural segments should definitely be posted at minimum 65 mph, 70 mph ideal. Again though, that law is the only thing prohibiting it. I've complained about this numerous times - an artificial limit set on paper based solely on functional class (60 mph divided, 65 mph freeway, 70 mph interstate highway in Indiana's case) that defies reality and true design speed. I'd be willing to bet the true design speed for the roadway is at least 70 mph. Seeing this project was built around the time they built I-69 between Evansville and Bloomington, I'm surprised it wasn't built to full freeway standards. It's also would have given Owensboro direct freeway access to I-64 East.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 05:41:56 PM by sprjus4 »
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monty

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #77 on: October 09, 2019, 11:46:02 PM »

I suspect that US31 will be closer to interstate type standard from Indy to the new Kokomo segment after the interchange is built at Division Road and the NSRR is bridged. INDOT has acquired some twelve properties in Tipton County and a reliable source indicated that the current Northbound lanes will become an access road north of the RR. Just saw two properties on the west side of the highway that are empty - which will allow for new Southbound lanes to be built in this area. It makes sense that Bakers Corner interchange through Division Road interchange will be next to get the full conversion.
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monty

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2019, 05:46:59 PM »

I suspect that US31 will be closer to interstate type standard from Indy to the new Kokomo segment after the interchange is built at Division Road and the NSRR is bridged. INDOT has acquired some twelve properties in Tipton County and a reliable source indicated that the current Northbound lanes will become an access road north of the RR. Just saw two properties on the west side of the highway that are empty - which will allow for new Southbound lanes to be built in this area. It makes sense that Bakers Corner interchange through Division Road interchange will be next to get the full conversion.

Likely scenario:  INDOT will build out US 31 as a full freeway Indy-Kokomo -- then sit back and wait for reaction from the areas north of there to Plymouth, building out the enhanced divided facility they're currently planning.  If there's a lot of pissing and moaning regarding "they got a freeway; we have to put up with these damn J-turns" or something similar, then at least preliminary planning for freeway upgrades will occur (with any actual activity toward development TBD as regards a timeline).  A plan like that is probably all INDOT can "bite off" at this time. 
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monty

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2019, 10:15:26 PM »

I suspect that US31 will be closer to interstate type standard from Indy to the new Kokomo segment after the interchange is built at Division Road and the NSRR is bridged. INDOT has acquired some twelve properties in Tipton County and a reliable source indicated that the current Northbound lanes will become an access road north of the RR. Just saw two properties on the west side of the highway that are empty - which will allow for new Southbound lanes to be built in this area. It makes sense that Bakers Corner interchange through Division Road interchange will be next to get the full conversion.

Likely scenario:  INDOT will build out US 31 as a full freeway Indy-Kokomo -- then sit back and wait for reaction from the areas north of there to Plymouth, building out the enhanced divided facility they're currently planning.  If there's a lot of pissing and moaning regarding "they got a freeway; we have to put up with these damn J-turns" or something similar, then at least preliminary planning for freeway upgrades will occur (with any actual activity toward development TBD as regards a timeline).  A plan like that is probably all INDOT can "bite off" at this time. 

I think you’re right. I counted ten homes that INDOT has purchased between Division Road and Tipton County 375 N On Both sides of the highway. The US 31 Coalition will continue to push for the entire INDY to South Bend route to be fully upgraded. J Turns are not a popular proposal. The governor is still working to keep his promise for a “no-stop” US 31. Lots of progress being made. 
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monty

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2019, 06:33:39 PM »

An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.

Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?

I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.

If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.

I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
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Terry Shea

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2019, 07:00:26 PM »

An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.

Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?

I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.

If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.

I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
The original idea was to send I-67 up I-196 to Grand Rapids, which makes perfect sense.
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sprjus4

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2019, 09:06:52 PM »

An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.

Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?

I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.

If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.

I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
The original idea was to send I-67 up I-196 to Grand Rapids, which makes perfect sense.
Ideally, from Grand Rapids, you could then continue it up the freeway portion of US-131 then construct a new location segment due east to meet I-75 near the US-127 junction.
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roadgeek

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2019, 09:37:18 PM »

I didn't consider that having I-67 ending at Grand Rapids. US-31 could just run concurrently for a while.

An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.

Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?

I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.

If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.

I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
The original idea was to send I-67 up I-196 to Grand Rapids, which makes perfect sense.
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silverback1065

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2019, 09:41:10 PM »

69 in indiana is completely funded, the ohio river bridge isn't.
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sparker

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2019, 11:12:47 PM »

69 in indiana is completely funded, the ohio river bridge isn't.

IIRC, KYDOT is taking the lead on the bridge project and will be contributing at least half the cost of design & construction.  Nevertheless, their share will be a substantial chunk of $$ for INDOT; it's likely that it'll be some time after the bridge project is let (and the remainder of I-69 within the state is completed) that the agency undertakes another major project of that magnitude, including the conversion of US 31 to full (Interstate or not) freeway north from Indy to Plymouth.  It'll be "baby steps", a few miles at a time, until the projects ahead of it in the queue are in the rear view mirror.   But even that won't happen without prompting from the areas traversed by US 31; they'll have to make some significant waves in Indy to achieve that goal.   
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X99

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AM »

I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
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sparker

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2019, 04:04:40 AM »

I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.

IIRC, the "future I-67" was to have utilized the Natcher Parkway, which just recently was designated and subsequently signed as I-165.   At this point, barring anything but a full-on political onslaught, I-165 is likely to retain its number for the foreseeable future.  There's no other location in KY in which a reasonably feasible I-67 could and would be appropriate. 
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SSR_317

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2019, 04:57:14 PM »

I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
What is Kentucky trying to do, become another North Carolina with nonsensical numbers pulled out of their rear ends?  :bigass:
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sparker

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2019, 03:44:07 AM »

I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
What is Kentucky trying to do, become another North Carolina with nonsensical numbers pulled out of their rear ends?  :bigass:

Most of that BS regarding new KY-based trunk Interstates came from Owensboro, with successive mayors and chambers of commerce pressing for a Natcher/US 231-based "I-67" to place their city on the I-system; those efforts created enough local "buzz" for KYDOT to at one point list the concept as a potential set of projects (hey, I-66 remains a semi-active concept within the state although largely dormant at this time).  Those efforts were eventually rebuffed -- but the I-165 Natcher designation seems to have settled the matter for the time being.   
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hbelkins

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2019, 05:11:12 PM »

I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
What is Kentucky trying to do, become another North Carolina with nonsensical numbers pulled out of their rear ends?  :bigass:

Most of that BS regarding new KY-based trunk Interstates came from Owensboro, with successive mayors and chambers of commerce pressing for a Natcher/US 231-based "I-67" to place their city on the I-system; those efforts created enough local "buzz" for KYDOT to at one point list the concept as a potential set of projects (hey, I-66 remains a semi-active concept within the state although largely dormant at this time).  Those efforts were eventually rebuffed -- but the I-165 Natcher designation seems to have settled the matter for the time being.   

Long before there were any thoughts of putting an interstate on the Natcher Parkway, there were "Future I-69 Spur" signs on the Audubon Parkway. Those signs have been gone for years now, and I've never been able to get a good answer as to why.

Right now, I-69 ends at the former KY 425/current US 41 (Henderson bypass) interchange. Seems like it would be fairly easy to extend the designation to the Audubon, and then put a three-digit "child" of I-69 on the Audubon. (Similar to how I-72 ended and I-172 began in Illinois for years before I-72 was extended across the river into Missouri.)
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theline

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2019, 02:52:22 AM »

this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm

there will be an exit at division rd

My takeaways from this:

1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.

The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County.  It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange".  How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection?  They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?

Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.

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Life in Paradise

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2019, 11:00:43 AM »

this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm

there will be an exit at division rd

My takeaways from this:

1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.

The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County.  It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange".  How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection?  They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?

Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.


Do you really think that they want those trucks taking those J-turns?  That would seem to me to be just as bad, if not worse.
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silverback1065

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2019, 11:02:54 AM »

this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm

there will be an exit at division rd

My takeaways from this:

1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.

The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County.  It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange".  How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection?  They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?

Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.


Do you really think that they want those trucks taking those J-turns?  That would seem to me to be just as bad, if not worse.
If they're building them I would say yes. Not sure why people hate J-Turns they don't seem that bad. Especially in rural areas.
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2trailertrucker

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2019, 11:31:29 AM »

A J-turn that close to a truck stop is something that needs to be studied closely.

Trucks are very slow coming from a dead stop. So can a truck make a right from the truck stop, get to the left lane to get to the J-turn, make the turn, again coming from a dead stop, without 65 mph traffic hitting the truck?

That is the $64 million question.
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silverback1065

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2019, 11:33:06 AM »

A J-turn that close to a truck stop is something that needs to be studied closely.

Trucks are very slow coming from a dead stop. So can a truck make a right from the truck stop, get to the left lane to get to the J-turn, make the turn, again coming from a dead stop, without 65 mph traffic hitting the truck?

That is the $64 million question.
Didn't think about that. Maybe the distances are longer to accommodate that. No idea. This has to be a temporary fix though. I don't see this being permanent.
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X99

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2019, 01:17:37 PM »

this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm

there will be an exit at division rd

My takeaways from this:

1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.

The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County.  It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange".  How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection?  They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?

Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.


I feel like that would do better as a split diamond between CR 100 and the road you marked in red.
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hbelkins

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2019, 03:20:17 PM »

Kentucky just installed a J-turn/RCUT at US 68/KY 80 and KY 73 west of Bowling Green as a safety project, because of a number of grain trucks using that intersection to reach a grain mill. Apparently the slow-moving trucks negotiating the turns wasn't an issue.
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sprjus4

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2019, 12:20:10 AM »

A bit on the fictional side, but here's a conceptualization I made of a full build out for the CR-100 / US-31 intersection.



Thoughts?
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X99

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Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2019, 12:28:28 AM »

I didn't see those ramps on the south side. I guess my split diamond idea wouldn't have worked.
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