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Author Topic: Interesting things about states and their roads  (Read 2893 times)

Mapmikey

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2019, 09:13:15 AM »


On the other side of North Carolina, Virginia seems to have two classes of State Secondary Routes. The most notable, are your black and white circles, which I remember an old crusade to have banned for other states back in the days when the internet first encountered roadgeeking, and routes of a lower class which only have street name signs.



Virginia definitely has just one system of secondary state route.  Not sure exactly what is meant by street name sign posting for secondary routes, but to my knowledge nowhere in Virginia are secondary routes routinely posted solely by references on green street blade signs.
I’ve seen “F” routes, presumably Frontage Roads, but they’re marked on the traditional circle route shield with F-XXX

F routes are technically in the primary system. T routes are in the same secondary system and indicate that an incorporated town’s roads are maintained by VDOT.
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fillup420

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2019, 07:28:33 AM »


In general, South Carolina is a very unique state when it comes to roads, SCDOT design has a very unique look to it.

I lived in SC for a bit, and this is very true. the material used for BGSs on interstates is quite odd looking compared to NC, and the state route shield on BGS doesn’t always match what is on the route itself. Although this is due to the change in state route shield design in like 2005.

also SC seems to have been a fan of directional intersections in the past. for example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2307707,-80.8872823,17z


Many have been reconfigured to a more standard approach over the years, but usually evidence of them can be seen. Some still remain and I always enjoy coming across one.
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D-Dey65

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2019, 10:06:02 AM »

Black and white circles are spelled out as the default route marker by the MUTCD. They were never in danger of getting "banned"—roadgeeks just don't like states using them because they're bland and uncreative.
Yes, but this crusade to do away with them still existed.

Probably the rectangular markers such as the one you can see here.


That's them.

also SC seems to have been a fan of directional intersections in the past. for example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2307707,-80.8872823,17z
I want to see that at US 301 and NC 48 in Pleasant Hill, NC, but with additional lanes for the post office there.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 10:12:22 AM by D-Dey65 »
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hbelkins

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2019, 07:44:17 PM »

Black and white circles are spelled out as the default route marker by the MUTCD. They were never in danger of getting "banned"—roadgeeks just don't like states using them because they're bland and uncreative.
Yes, but this crusade to do away with them still existed.

I remember no crusade to do away with them. I know most don't like them, but there was no official crusade to eliminate them.

i do, however, remember the Butterfly Crusade.  :bigass:
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thspfc

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2019, 08:08:29 PM »

Black and white circles are spelled out as the default route marker by the MUTCD. They were never in danger of getting "banned"—roadgeeks just don't like states using them because they're bland and uncreative.
Yes, but this crusade to do away with them still existed.

I remember no crusade to do away with them. I know most don't like them, but there was no official crusade to eliminate them.

i do, however, remember the Butterfly Crusade.  :bigass:
Oh shoot, not this again.
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vdeane

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2019, 08:27:53 PM »

We will never forget the horrors that were unleashed in the final days of the Caterpillar War.
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mapman1071

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2019, 10:53:15 PM »

Arizona:

-  There are several State Highways with dirt segments; AZ 88 and 288 come to mine most prominently.
-  The original run of State Highways were given numbers consecutive to the original run of US Route which is why there are so many in the 60-99 range. 
-  State Highways often have child Routes which are three digits akin to 3D Interstates. 
-   Arizona has two colored shield era; first in the 50s/60s with US Route/State Highway shields and later with the Phoenix Loop Highways.  Some signage on the Loop Highways remains in color.
-  Arizona probably is the most controlling western state with mountain speed limits.  Almost every mountain grade contains an absurd amount of speed limit signs and slow ones at that.
-  Arizona has no 3D Interstates. 
-  Arizona has no tolled State Highways. 
-  Arizona has a surprisingly large number of hanging ends such as; AZ 99, AZ 238 and AZ 96.
-  Arizona has numerous number duplications.  AZ 95 and US 95 actually meet in Quartzsite.
-  Both I-8 and I-10 borrowed from State Highways (AZ 84 and AZ 86) better alignments through the state over US 80.   
-  US Routes have State Highway family’s.  The family routes of US 66 still exist in AZ 266 and AZ 366, they were connected to US 66 by way of US 666. 
No AZ State Highways Numbered under 24
AZ 210 does not meet any other Numbered Highway (I, US, AZ)
AZ 95 has 2 disconnected signed segments
AZ 87 has 4 signed sections but all are connected (Mesa & Chandler Maintain The Route thru their cities)  (I-10 Eloy to Hunt Highway Chandler, 1/4 Mile N/S @ Loop 202 San Tan Freeway Chandler, 1/4 Mile N/S @ US 60 Superstition Freeway Mesa & Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway Mesa to AZ 264 Second Mesa, Hopi Nation)
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2019, 07:21:10 PM »

CT:
I-684 passes through Greenwich, is maintained by NYSDOT but is under CT's jurisdiction.

MA:  MASSDOT doesn't allow SR/US/Int. number duplicates, with one exception:  MA 295 in Berkshire County and I-295 outside Providence.
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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2019, 07:59:46 PM »

Black and white circles are spelled out as the default route marker by the MUTCD. They were never in danger of getting "banned"—roadgeeks just don't like states using them because they're bland and uncreative.

If given the choice between the square or the circle, I think I'd choose the latter; squares and rectangles are used for so many other signage purposes.

Quote
In addition to Virginia, MS, IA, KY, NJ, DE, and VT still use the circles in some capacity.

...as well as Puerto Rico's tertiary routes, and the Virgin Islands.

sparker

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2019, 04:43:00 AM »

TxDOT seems to have put more effort into their FM & associated "secondary" route field indicators than their decidedly bland square state highway shields.   IMO they're long overdue for a redesign -- maybe redo the state highway shields with the state outline but reverse the shading -- white numbers on a black state shape on a white background with "state" above the state outline and "highway" below.   Or possibly go "retro" and add some color to the mix. 
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StogieGuy7

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2019, 10:19:03 AM »

TxDOT seems to have put more effort into their FM & associated "secondary" route field indicators than their decidedly bland square state highway shields.   IMO they're long overdue for a redesign -- maybe redo the state highway shields with the state outline but reverse the shading -- white numbers on a black state shape on a white background with "state" above the state outline and "highway" below.   Or possibly go "retro" and add some color to the mix.

Yet the boring square with the state outline tossed in is not all that old. Prior to the rollout of those (was it in the 90's?), state highway shields in TN were the same upside down rounded triangle now used for secondary routes.  So the odds aren't good.  All that said, I do agree with you.  I'm no fan of square state highway shields and find them boring as hell.  If worse comes to worse, I even (much) prefer the circle shield to the square.  The square is a state DOT's version of mailing it in - and adding some do-dad design to it (which often fades) doesn't help much.

Speaking of which, how awful is the OK meat cleaver? Their signage looked so much better using the simple circle than with that ugly off-centered design.
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roadman

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2019, 10:25:45 AM »

MA:  MASSDOT doesn't allow SR/US/Int. number duplicates, with one exception:  MA 295 in Berkshire County and I-295 outside Providence.

US 3 and MA 3 would like to have a word with you.
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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2019, 10:46:52 AM »

Speaking of which, how awful is the OK meat cleaver? Their signage looked so much better using the simple circle than with that ugly off-centered design.

It's not Oklahoma's fault that their state has a very asymmetrical shape.  Any deviation from the boring circle is an improvement imo.
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vdeane

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2019, 12:39:09 PM »

MA:  MASSDOT doesn't allow SR/US/Int. number duplicates, with one exception:  MA 295 in Berkshire County and I-295 outside Providence.

US 3 and MA 3 would like to have a word with you.
That's an extension, not a duplicate.  MA doesn't even consider them to be separate roads.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2019, 04:50:24 PM »

MA:  MASSDOT doesn't allow SR/US/Int. number duplicates, with one exception:  MA 295 in Berkshire County and I-295 outside Providence.

US 3 and MA 3 would like to have a word with you.
MASSDOT internally considers both numbers to be MA 3.
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sparker

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2019, 01:40:22 PM »

MA:  MASSDOT doesn't allow SR/US/Int. number duplicates, with one exception:  MA 295 in Berkshire County and I-295 outside Providence.

US 3 and MA 3 would like to have a word with you.
MASSDOT internally considers both numbers to be MA 3.

Essentially the same thing in CA:  e.g. I-110/CA 110, I-15/CA 15, I-210/CA 210 (our own WTF dilemma!), etc.  Sometimes the CA state numbers are simply placeholders (ostensibly 15 & 210); CA 110 simply denotes a portion of that particular corridor that is not and will never be Interstate standard.
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crispy93

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2019, 03:29:20 PM »

Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but in New York, I don't think any part of US 1's speed limit is controlled by NYSDOT. In NYC, even while concurrent with I-95, the limit is controlled by NYCDOT. In Westchester, US 1 goes through the villages or cities of Pelham Manor, New Rochelle, Mamaroneck, Rye, and Port Chester. In NYS, villages and cities set the speed limit on all surface roads within its borders. The only town is the town of Mamaroneck (not to be confused with the village) which is legally suburban and can set its own limits.
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KeithE4Phx

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2019, 04:33:19 PM »

Arizona:

-  There are several State Highways with dirt segments; AZ 88 and 288 come to mine most prominently.

AZ 83 was partially dirt (or gravel?) at one time, but I believe it's all paved now.  ADOT tried to pave AZ 88 east of Tortilla Flat a couple decades ago, but public opinion killed it.

Quote
-  The original run of State Highways were given numbers consecutive to the original run of US Route which is why there are so many in the 60-99 range. 

US 60 didn't enter Arizona until the early 1930s, but there was no AZ 60 before that, either.

Quote
-   Arizona has two colored shield era; first in the 50s/60s with US Route/State Highway shields and later with the Phoenix Loop Highways.  Some signage on the Loop Highways remains in color.

I think 90% of the Loop signs have been replaced now.  The problem with them was fading colors due to the sun and heat.  I thought the Feds made ADOT get rid of the colors in the late '60s, same as in Florida years later.

Quote
-  Arizona has no 3D Interstates. 

Not since the mid/late 1960s, when the original section of what is now I-10 between I-17 and Sky Harbor Airport was called I-410 for a couple years, then briefly I-510.

Quote
-  Arizona has no tolled State Highways. 

And we'd like to keep it that way!  :)

Quote
-  Arizona has a surprisingly large number of hanging ends such as; AZ 99, AZ 238 and AZ 96.

AZ 96 originally didn't connect to the rest of the state highway network at all.  Before AZ 97 was built to connect it to AZ (now US) 93 which was built after the war, it was a standalone road between Bagdad and Hillside.  AZ 210 (Aviation Pkwy) in Tucson is another standalone highway, at least right now.

Those "hanging ends" actually continue as county roads (96, 238) or National Forest roads (99, 288).  AZ 83 ends at the entrance to Parker Canyon Lake.

Quote
-  Arizona has numerous number duplications.  AZ 95 and US 95 actually meet in Quartzsite.

AFAIK, 95 is the only duplicated number that still exists.  AZ 93 was replaced by US 93 between I-40 and Wickenburg, and discontinued in the rest of the state.  Both AZ and US 93 existed before that.

Arizona also has several highways that they maintain but don't sign: 

The Sky Harbor spur from the Loop 202 is on the books as AZ 202S. 
Main St. in the unincorporated parts of east Mesa is US 60X. 
Fain Rd. in Prescott Valley is unsigned AZ 89S (once proposed as AZ 48 but that was never adopted).
Tangerine Rd. in Tucson has a bridge that is still ADOT maintained as AZ 989, but is not signed.

There is one glaring gap that ADOT used to maintain and sign, but they no longer do: 

AZ 87, Country Club Dr. in Mesa/Arizona Ave. in Chandler, between McKellips Rd in Mesa and the Chandler/Gila River Indian Community border where AZ 87 and 587 split.  Other than at the overpass/ramps over US 60 that have one overhead sign in each direction, these sections of 87 were turned over to those cities years ago.  The signs for Arizona Ave. on the Loop 202 Santan Fwy show AZ 87, but once you get off the freeway, no indication of a state highway exists as it's within the city limits of Chandler.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 06:17:09 PM by KeithE4Phx »
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Scott5114

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2019, 07:23:38 PM »

Speaking of which, how awful is the OK meat cleaver? Their signage looked so much better using the simple circle than with that ugly off-centered design.

It actually looked worse beforehand, because replacing every state highway shield in the state gave ODOT a chance to more or less standardize the appearance of the shield (though there are a few variants). Before that, shields varied greatly throughout the state in terms of width of digits used, size of letter suffix on secondary routes, and even whether a true oval or a flat-sided capsule shape was used on wide shields.

It's not Oklahoma's fault that their state has a very asymmetrical shape.  Any deviation from the boring circle is an improvement imo.

This is something that is uniquely true for Oklahoma—Indian Territory was basically what was left over when all of the surrounding states were formed. The panhandle, in particular, was land that Texas didn't want for its own panhandle because it was north of the Missouri Compromise line.
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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2019, 11:56:10 PM »

Arizona:

-  There are several State Highways with dirt segments; AZ 88 and 288 come to mine most prominently.

AZ 83 was partially dirt (or gravel?) at one time, but I believe it's all paved now.  ADOT tried to pave AZ 88 east of Tortilla Flat a couple decades ago, but public opinion killed it.

Quote
-  The original run of State Highways were given numbers consecutive to the original run of US Route which is why there are so many in the 60-99 range. 

US 60 didn't enter Arizona until the early 1930s, but there was no AZ 60 before that, either.

Quote
-   Arizona has two colored shield era; first in the 50s/60s with US Route/State Highway shields and later with the Phoenix Loop Highways.  Some signage on the Loop Highways remains in color.

I think 90% of the Loop signs have been replaced now.  The problem with them was fading colors due to the sun and heat.  I thought the Feds made ADOT get rid of the colors in the late '60s, same as in Florida years later.

Quote
-  Arizona has no 3D Interstates. 

Not since the mid/late 1960s, when the original section of what is now I-10 between I-17 and Sky Harbor Airport was called I-410 for a couple years, then briefly I-510.

Quote
-  Arizona has no tolled State Highways. 

And we'd like to keep it that way!  :)

Quote
-  Arizona has a surprisingly large number of hanging ends such as; AZ 99, AZ 238 and AZ 96.

AZ 96 originally didn't connect to the rest of the state highway network at all.  Before AZ 97 was built to connect it to AZ (now US) 93 which was built after the war, it was a standalone road between Bagdad and Hillside.  AZ 210 (Aviation Pkwy) in Tucson is another standalone highway, at least right now.

Those "hanging ends" actually continue as county roads (96, 238) or National Forest roads (99, 288).  AZ 83 ends at the entrance to Parker Canyon Lake.

Quote
-  Arizona has numerous number duplications.  AZ 95 and US 95 actually meet in Quartzsite.

AFAIK, 95 is the only duplicated number that still exists.  AZ 93 was replaced by US 93 between I-40 and Wickenburg, and discontinued in the rest of the state.  Both AZ and US 93 existed before that.

Arizona also has several highways that they maintain but don't sign: 

The Sky Harbor spur from the Loop 202 is on the books as AZ 202S. 
Main St. in the unincorporated parts of east Mesa is US 60X. 
Fain Rd. in Prescott Valley is unsigned AZ 89S (once proposed as AZ 48 but that was never adopted).
Tangerine Rd. in Tucson has a bridge that is still ADOT maintained as AZ 989, but is not signed.

There is one glaring gap that ADOT used to maintain and sign, but they no longer do: 

AZ 87, Country Club Dr. in Mesa/Arizona Ave. in Chandler, between McKellips Rd in Mesa and the Chandler/Gila River Indian Community border where AZ 87 and 587 split.  Other than at the overpass/ramps over US 60 that have one overhead sign in each direction, these sections of 87 were turned over to those cities years ago.  The signs for Arizona Ave. on the Loop 202 Santan Fwy show AZ 87, but once you get off the freeway, no indication of a state highway exists as it's within the city limits of Chandler.

I want to say that AZ 366 had an unpaved portion near it's western terminus before it becomes a Forest Service Road.  Similarly I believe the south terminus of AZ 473 at Hawley Lake was also dirt.  I believe you are correct that AZ 83 had a segment of badly eroded asphalt was top layered in gravel.

Regarding US 60, the original intended route was what became US 66.  Interestingly AZ 88 was initially planned AZ 66 but got switched when US 66 came to be. 

Arizona seems to have always been doing their own thing with the Loop Freeways and under cut the Feds from the process completely.  I've often heard rumors the snubs for early 3D Interstates played a large part why the Loop Freeways never were submitted to be part of the system.

AZ 89, AZ 89A and US 89 are all duplicated route numbers...I believe there was once a AZ 89L in Page?  US 180 and AZ 180A technically kind of sort of duplicate as well.  US 64 and AZ 64 also exist within Arizona.

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2019, 09:19:24 AM »

Wisconsin:

* as noted above - every Interstate except one comes into close proximity or crosses the Illinois state line
* The only state to have triple concurrencies of Interstate routes. 2 to be exact.
* In fact, WI will often have quadruple concurrencies and all be prominent routes - Take the Madison Beltline - 4 US Routes, and Milwaukee having 3 Interstates and 1 US Route on a single freeway - one of which is redundant (I-894)
* One of two states to have a duplication of two route classes on the same road.  It also has duplication in different areas - this is thanks to federal legislation.
* no state highways exist under 11 (10 is a US route as are 2 and 8)
* speaking of 8, WI has the dominating mileage of that route, with only small amounts in MN and MI.
* County routes, or rather legally county trunk highways are lettered.  some letter patterns reference people or places.  (no, this isn't intentionally with HHH).
* Most everyone in WI will call a number route "Highway #(#(#))" and before being replaced with shields on signs - the distance signs used "HWY". (HWY 94, HWY 11, HWY 8, HWY X, etc)
* Why 894 and 794? They must have an agreement with IL and MN.
* WI's two only 3d US routes start and end with a "1"
* WI uses a single sign board for it's "sign salads" - it's not unusual to see giant boards with more than six sets on them.
* WI is not a fan of 36x24 shaped shields outside Interstates (though it eased up for BGSs).  All state and US routes use squares.  The unusual ones are WI-794 (the Hoan Bridge southern approach) and US-151 (on CTH-PD in Fitchburg)
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Beltway

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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2019, 09:33:19 AM »

It's not Oklahoma's fault that their state has a very asymmetrical shape.  Any deviation from the boring circle is an improvement imo.
This is something that is uniquely true for Oklahoma—Indian Territory was basically what was left over when all of the surrounding states were formed. The panhandle, in particular, was land that Texas didn't want for its own panhandle because it was north of the Missouri Compromise line.
Most states do have an asymmetrical shape.   What is Maryland's excuse, for example?  Can't imagine anything more asymmetrical!   :-|
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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2019, 11:59:26 PM »

It's not Oklahoma's fault that their state has a very asymmetrical shape.  Any deviation from the boring circle is an improvement imo.
This is something that is uniquely true for Oklahoma—Indian Territory was basically what was left over when all of the surrounding states were formed. The panhandle, in particular, was land that Texas didn't want for its own panhandle because it was north of the Missouri Compromise line.
Most states do have an asymmetrical shape.   What is Maryland's excuse, for example?  Can't imagine anything more asymmetrical!   :-|

Maryland definitely is, although I tend to consider West Virginia as one of the most asymmetrical.

Edit:  On further reflection, I think "oddly-shaped" may be a better description than asymmetrical in this case.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:09:26 AM by dlsterner »
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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2019, 07:16:35 AM »


Most states do have an asymmetrical shape.   What is Maryland's excuse, for example?  Can't imagine anything more asymmetrical!   :-|

Maryland definitely is, although I tend to consider West Virginia as one of the most asymmetrical.

Edit:  On further reflection, I think "oddly-shaped" may be a better description than asymmetrical in this case.

WV is pretty close to symmetrical; the dividing line goes SW-NE.
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Re: Interesting things about states and their roads
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2019, 01:53:28 PM »


Most states do have an asymmetrical shape.   What is Maryland's excuse, for example?  Can't imagine anything more asymmetrical!   :-|

Maryland definitely is, although I tend to consider West Virginia as one of the most asymmetrical.

Edit:  On further reflection, I think "oddly-shaped" may be a better description than asymmetrical in this case.

WV is pretty close to symmetrical; the dividing line goes SW-NE.

Indeed, hence my edit about "oddly-shaped".
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