Philadelphia

[ixnay]

There's room on that gantry (maybe) for a sign saying

      South and
      Southwest
     Philadelphia

USE EXITS 346B OR 347B

ixnay

i'd say that's incorrect - for South Philly, I'd be getting off at Broad or Packer (with Passyunk getting a maybe).

Probably depends on where in South Philly you need to get to.

ixnay

[jeffandnicole]

There's room on that gantry (maybe) for a sign saying

      South and
      Southwest
     Philadelphia

USE EXITS 346B OR 347B

ixnay

i'd say that's incorrect - for South Philly, I'd be getting off at Broad or Packer (with Passyunk getting a maybe).

Probably depends on where in South Philly you need to get to.

ixnay

Which is why vaguely defined neighborhoods usually aren't signed.

[ixnay]

There's room on that gantry (maybe) for a sign saying

      South and
      Southwest
     Philadelphia

USE EXITS 346B OR 347B

ixnay

i'd say that's incorrect - for South Philly, I'd be getting off at Broad or Packer (with Passyunk getting a maybe).

Probably depends on where in South Philly you need to get to.

ixnay

Which is why vaguely defined neighborhoods usually aren't signed.

Unless it's been replaced since 11/2017 with a more specifically worded sign, this looks like an exception...

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9935186,-75.1995851,3a,75y,52.63h,88.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7I0PD43ydBuFWMZmV9gq2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

which is the main reason for my suggested signage at sb exits 346B and 347B.

ixnay

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

There's room on that gantry (maybe) for a sign saying

      South and
      Southwest
     Philadelphia

USE EXITS 346B OR 347B

ixnay

i'd say that's incorrect - for South Philly, I'd be getting off at Broad or Packer (with Passyunk getting a maybe).

Probably depends on where in South Philly you need to get to.

ixnay

Which is why vaguely defined neighborhoods usually aren't signed.

Unless it's been replaced since 11/2017 with a more specifically worded sign, this looks like an exception...

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9935186,-75.1995851,3a,75y,52.63h,88.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7I0PD43ydBuFWMZmV9gq2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

which is the main reason for my suggested signage at sb exits 346B and 347B.

ixnay

Lets see. US 1/Roosevelt Blvd & NE Philly does make sense.
One exit, major throughfare to reach it.
South Philly can be reached by exits 346 A (South St), 347 B (Passyunk/Oregon), and 349 (Broad St)
The catch is there are exits in between that don't reach South Philly, so adding such signage would just confuse the general public.

[ixnay]

There's room on that gantry (maybe) for a sign saying

      South and
      Southwest
     Philadelphia

USE EXITS 346B OR 347B

ixnay

i'd say that's incorrect - for South Philly, I'd be getting off at Broad or Packer (with Passyunk getting a maybe).

Probably depends on where in South Philly you need to get to.

ixnay

Which is why vaguely defined neighborhoods usually aren't signed.

Unless it's been replaced since 11/2017 with a more specifically worded sign, this looks like an exception...

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9935186,-75.1995851,3a,75y,52.63h,88.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7I0PD43ydBuFWMZmV9gq2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

which is the main reason for my suggested signage at sb exits 346B and 347B.

ixnay

Lets see. US 1/Roosevelt Blvd & NE Philly does make sense.
One exit, major throughfare to reach it.
South Philly can be reached by exits 346 A (South St), 347 B (Passyunk/Oregon), and 349 (Broad St)
The catch is there are exits in between that don't reach South Philly, so adding such signage would just confuse the general public.

I assume you're referring to 28th St.

I stand by my suggestion though.  Agree to disagree.

ixnay

[jeffandnicole]

The only reason I would think they would even sign Northeast Philadelphia is due to there being an airport there. Otherwise it would just make sense to take I-95 instead.

[PHLBOS]

The only reason I would think they would even sign Northeast Philadelphia is due to there being an airport there.

Not necessarily.  Northeast Philadelphia Airport (PNE) is roughly some 8 miles from the I-76/US 1 North interchange (Exit 340 B) & such has been a general aviation airport (no scheduled commercial flights) for decades.

Otherwise it would just make sense to take I-95 instead.

Given this location along with the fact that Northeast Philly extends beyond just the I-95 corridor (you already know such), using this US 1 North exit avoids going through Center City.

Finally got a chance to get decent pics of the new signed on I-76 EB:

Is it me or is there more blank space than there needs to be on the left & right sides of that Exit 346 B approach sign?  The message on that actual exit sign itself should have been shifted to the left more.  It looks a bit crowded with respect to the arrow.

As you can see the 1/4 mi advance signs for Exits 347A-B haven't been replaced as of yet. I do hope that they warn of the height restriction for 347A a lot sooner than the exit gore cause as of right now that's the first indication of a height restriction and having that exit as part of my commute home, I've seen many a semi get stuck under there.

Ugh... regarding the match-in-kind messages for that through-sign.  As previously mentioned, that TO text should be placed between the I-76 & I-95 shields.

As many have stated, that EXIT 347 A tab should have a LEFT tab above it.  As far as the EXIT 347 B tab is concerned: on one hand, I can see why such wasn't provided (aside from the match-in-kind reasoning) because the ramp is not along the far-left-lanes; however, on the other hand, the ramp is still technically located to the left of the mainline/through lanes.  Such reminds me of this scenario along I-84 westbound in Hartford, CT.

Observation: PennDOT has been retrofitting LEFT tabs on its older left-lane exit signage.  An example of such along I-95 southbound near Penn's Landing.  Similar could be done for at least the EXIT 347 A signage.

The "To I-76" may have something to do with the fact that IIRC, the rest of the Schuylkill Expressway up to the bridge is owned and maintained by the DRPA. (It has no SR 0076 designation.)

Given that every ramp & through sign along that stretch of I-76 lists such as 76 and not TO 76; that reasoning goes completely out the window. 

One has to wonder if the designer for the original through-eastbound signage still thought that the Schuylkill/Walt Whitman Expressways in this area were still I-676.  Had those old designations were stil the case; then the TO EAST 76 message would've still been correct.  Granted, that speculation would not explain the correct legends for the westbound through-signage... unless, of course, there were two separate designers for the eastbound & westbound signs and there was no back-checking/coordination between the two.

[ipeters61]

As many have stated, that EXIT 347 A tab should have a LEFT tab above it.  As far as the EXIT 347 B tab is concerned: on one hand, I can see why such wasn't provided (aside from the match-in-kind reasoning) because the ramp is not along the far-left-lanes; however, on the other hand, the ramp is still technically located to the left of the mainline/through lanes.  Such reminds me of this scenario along I-84 westbound in Hartford, CT.

Well, also I don't think ConnDOT signed "left exit" on "exit only" situations in signs of that generation (or previous generations, for that matter).  But of course that's now changing with the new MUTCD "left" tabs.

[PHLBOS]

As many have stated, that EXIT 347 A tab should have a LEFT tab above it.  As far as the EXIT 347 B tab is concerned: on one hand, I can see why such wasn't provided (aside from the match-in-kind reasoning) because the ramp is not along the far-left-lanes; however, on the other hand, the ramp is still technically located to the left of the mainline/through lanes.  Such reminds me of this scenario along I-84 westbound in Hartford, CT.

Well, also I don't think ConnDOT signed "left exit" on "exit only" situations in signs of that generation (or previous generations, for that matter).  But of course that's now changing with the new MUTCD "left" tabs.

I'm well aware that those CT signs are of an older generation that predate the current MUTCD standards.  I only posted such to show that a similar situation (two adjacent-left-hand-side exit ramps) exists elsewhere. 

The question here is, how would the CT example be signed if current standards were applied?  IMHO, such (both the CT & PA examples) would be a case for continued usage of diagrammatic signs (even if there's no shared-lane involved).  Such would better illustrate the scenario more clearly even if such practice is no longer being used/encouraged by MUTCD.

Maybe some of our sign designers on this board can play around with such schemes in the Redesign this! thread.

[ipeters61]

As many have stated, that EXIT 347 A tab should have a LEFT tab above it.  As far as the EXIT 347 B tab is concerned: on one hand, I can see why such wasn't provided (aside from the match-in-kind reasoning) because the ramp is not along the far-left-lanes; however, on the other hand, the ramp is still technically located to the left of the mainline/through lanes.  Such reminds me of this scenario along I-84 westbound in Hartford, CT.

Well, also I don't think ConnDOT signed "left exit" on "exit only" situations in signs of that generation (or previous generations, for that matter).  But of course that's now changing with the new MUTCD "left" tabs.

I'm well aware that those CT signs are of an older generation that predate the current MUTCD standards.  I only posted such to show that a similar situation (two adjacent-left-hand-side exit ramps) exists elsewhere. 

The question here is, how would the CT example be signed if current standards were applied?  IMHO, such (both the CT & PA examples) would be a case for continued usage of diagrammatic signs (even if there's no shared-lane involved).  Such would better illustrate the scenario more clearly even if such practice is no longer being used/encouraged by MUTCD.

Maybe some of our sign designers on this board can play around with such schemes in the Redesign this! thread.

Fair enough, you might be right about diagrammatics.  Personally, I would mark both the left exit (in the CT example, since I'm more familiar with it, Exit 55) and the "center exit" (Exit 54) both as "left exits" since they are still to the left of through traffic.

Another similar-ish situation I found quite confusing was this exit in NYC, although involving right exits: https://goo.gl/maps/WXBwoRZZggS2.  I couldn't tell if this was referring to the right through lane of I-678 (after the three lane exit 13A-C left) or the right lane of I-678 in that moment.  Maybe it's just me overanalyzing it, but I just don't like that setup.

[Beltway]

As you can see the 1/4 mi advance signs for Exits 347A-B haven't been replaced as of yet. I do hope that they warn of the height restriction for 347A a lot sooner than the exit gore cause as of right now that's the first indication of a height restriction and having that exit as part of my commute home, I've seen many a semi get stuck under there.

Ugh... regarding the match-in-kind messages for that through-sign.  As previously mentioned, that TO text should be placed between the I-76 & I-95 shields.

Ugh... the infamous "triple split" on the Surekill Expressway ... unchanged from when I lived in the area in the 1970s...

Or is that two simultaneous left-hand exits from the mainline?

[PHLBOS]

is that two simultaneous left-hand exits from the mainline?

Yes.  Such has been there since the Expressway was built.

[ekt8750]

I see it as two different freeways meeting at an at-grade intersection with ramps connecting the through movements.

[odditude]

Finally got a chance to get decent pics of the new signed on I-76 EB:

the periods after the abbreviations shouldn't be there per MUTCD.

i think the small-caps ordinal looks odd next to the normal "St" - they should've gone with normal "th" text there.

[Roadsguy]

The "To I-76" may have something to do with the fact that IIRC, the rest of the Schuylkill Expressway up to the bridge is owned and maintained by the DRPA. (It has no SR 0076 designation.)

Given that every ramp & through sign along that stretch of I-76 lists such as 76 and not TO 76; that reasoning goes completely out the window. 

I didn't mean it was standard method, I mean someone designing the original button copy signs might have been confused in that one case and no one noticed the error, even after replacing the signs.

[Beltway]

is that two simultaneous left-hand exits from the mainline?

Yes.  Such has been there since the Expressway was built.

Which I knew was the case.  I first drove it in 1972.

[Mergingtraffic]

These signs gone yet?

[Roadsguy]

These signs gone yet?

I don't believe so, though they definitely will be as the currently active first phase of the US 1 Improvement Project advances. Only early work has been done so far.

[Tonytone]

Is their a granite divider wall on Lincoln Drive in Philadelphia?

Also why is I-76 built like that? Was it the first highway in the area? Or a bunch or old roads put together to form a highway.

Which Bridge was built first? The Platt bridge or the Double decker bridge?

& Lastly why is I-676 only 2 lanes in certain spots & not 3 all the way through. Whos the smart one that came up with those plans.


iPhone

[Mergingtraffic]

Speaking of signs:
Are these still there?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9746312,-75.1218551,3a,75y,204.38h,86.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFCQnDY6NjOUOHnnFLqGoOw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Tonytone]

Speaking of signs:
Are these still there?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9746312,-75.1218551,3a,75y,204.38h,86.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFCQnDY6NjOUOHnnFLqGoOw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That area looks nothing like that now. They are doing heavy construction over there.

I can take a picture for you when Or if I go over there today.


iPhone

[PHLBOS]

Is their there a granite divider wall on Lincoln Drive in Philadelphia?

FTFY.  I'm assuming that you're referring to the median.  Depending on location (GSV is one's friend) the median ranges from a Jersey barrier or a simple concrete island.

Also why is I-76 built like that?

Built like what?

Was it the first highway in the area?

In terms of expressways in the city, yes.

Which Bridge was built first? The Platt bridge or the Double decker bridge?

If by Double-decker, you're referring to the Girard Point Bridge which carries I-95; the Platt Bridge (originally known as the Penrose (Ave.) Bridge) that carries PA 291 is older by at least two decades.

Lastly why is I-676 only 2 lanes in certain spots & not 3 all the way through. Who's the smart one that came up with those plans?

The Vine (Street) Expressway was built in two segments in two different decades.  The western portion, between PA 611/Broad St. & I-76, was built during the late 1950s.  The eastern leg, from PA 611 to I-95, was built during the late 80s/early 90s & opened in late 1991.  The reason way the newer stretch was built decades later and was scaled down was due to both cost and NIMBY opposition to the highway in general.  The current set-up was built as a compromise between having a full-blown 6-laner built (which would've included direct ramps to/from the Ben Franklin Bridge) vs. not having an expressway at all.

Suggestion: you might want to do some independent research on the history regarding the above or any other roadway either by reading other threads and/or doing a Google Search.  The answers to most if not all of your questions would be right at your fingertips.

[Tonytone]

Is their there a granite divider wall on Lincoln Drive in Philadelphia?

FTFY.  I'm assuming that you're referring to the median.  Depending on location (GSV is one's friend) the median ranges from a Jersey barrier or a simple concrete island.

Also why is I-76 built like that?

Built like what?

Was it the first highway in the area?

In terms of expressways in the city, yes.

Which Bridge was built first? The Platt bridge or the Double decker bridge?

If by Double-decker, you're referring to the Girard Point Bridge which carries I-95; the Platt Bridge (originally known as the Penrose (Ave.) Bridge) that carries PA 291 is older by at least two decades.

Lastly why is I-676 only 2 lanes in certain spots & not 3 all the way through. Who's the smart one that came up with those plans?

The Vine (Street) Expressway was built in two segments in two different decades.  The western portion, between PA 611/Broad St. & I-76, was built during the late 1950s.  The eastern leg, from PA 611 to I-95, was built during the late 80s/early 90s & opened in late 1991.  The reason way the newer stretch was built decades later and was scaled down was due to both cost and NIMBY opposition to the highway in general.  The current set-up was built as a compromise between having a full-blown 6-laner built (which would've included direct ramps to/from the Ben Franklin Bridge) vs. not having an expressway at all.

Suggestion: you might want to do some independent research on the history regarding the above or any other roadway either by reading other threads and/or doing a Google Search.  The answers to most if not all of your questions would be right at your fingertips.

Yes I was referring to that Jersey Barrier, thank you. Is that a granite Jersey Barrier? Or is it just colored differently, I do think its Granite like the city curbs.

I-76 is built as if it was just upgraded & not really planned. From the turn onto or off off the 76 by the Platt Bridge should at least have some minor ramps for the highway. I assume they are upgrading 76 past the University Ave when it goes past the 30th st station, but my god they really squeezed that whole highway there, its more like a road then a highway. Did the 76 flow better when it was first built? Or was it always like that? Its just a bizarre highway.

So all the traffic had to go over that narrow 4 lane bridge in order to enter or leave philly. Sheessh. I-95 was probably a big relief when they built it.

That explains why the Benjamin bridge is not connected, that really confused me on the map, I always thought it was connected, Pa has a thing with not connecting bridges & Highways (Ex:476 & Commodore berry Bridge) you reap what you sew, they will end up paging more money to fix 676 Aka Vine street expressway. I can see it took alot of money to build roads & parks & buildings on top of a highway but when you're already halfway there you might as well keep it going. 3 full lanes & traffic probably wouldn't be backing up till the 95 exit which backs up during rush hour.

I do research this stuff up, but its different having someone who was around during that time tell you about it & with more detail. Also I forget what I was gonna look up and/or post on here sometimes so theres that. I also appreciate the answers yall give. Its great that we can all collectively bring history & knowledge that we know to one platform.


iPhone

[PHLBOS]

Yes I was referring to that Jersey Barrier, thank you. Is that a granite Jersey Barrier? Or is it just colored differently, I do think its Granite like the city curbs.

Such looks like a run-of-the-mill concrete barrier to me.  IMHO, it's colored that way just due to age.

I-76 is built as if it was just upgraded & not really planned. From the turn onto or off off the 76 by the Platt Bridge should at least have some minor ramps for the highway. I assume they are upgrading 76 past the University Ave when it goes past the 30th st station, but my god they really squeezed that whole highway there, its more like a road then a highway. Did the 76 flow better when it was first built? Or was it always like that? Its just a bizarre highway.

One way to get a better gist of how roads/highways evolved would be to use this site and view the various vintage aerial photographs.

Looking at the 1953 photograph, the latest available on the site prior to I-76 being built; it appears the much of the I-76 alignment was built parallel to (mostly) freight rail lines.  Such allowed for it to be built quicker & minimized (but didn't eliminate) land/home takings.

So all the traffic had to go over that narrow 4 lane bridge in order to enter or leave philly. Sheessh. I-95 was probably a big relief when they built it.

When the bridge first opened, the traffic was not as big of an issue because the more remote suburbs weren't developed yet and the bus & trolley transit network (both pre & post the creation of SEPTA) connecting the older & closer suburbs was more extensive, frequent and affordable.

To be sure, by the late 60s & early 70s, the traffic on that bridge was likely unbearable until I-95 opened.  I'm sure the 4-lane Passyunk Ave. drawbridge saw more traffic prior to I-95 opening as well.

PA has a thing with not connecting bridges & Highways (Ex:476 & Commodore Barry Bridge) you reap what you sow

FTFY.  In that particular case (& I believe you had a thread on such already); such was a case involving two different agencies (PennDOT & DRPA) with two different missions.  The bridge, which replaced a ferry, was built & open to traffic well over a decade earlier.  Additionally, there was already an existing feeder highway (US 322) in the NJ side for the ferry then later the bridge.  Such was one reason why the bridge wasn't built further east.  Another reason would be the proximity to the airport's (PHL) runway take-off/approach paths.

The likely reasoning why the I-476 alignment didn't shift westward towards the bridge was the belief, at the time the Blue route corridor was chosen decades prior to it being built, was that particular location would've not served the eastern (& then more-developed)  suburbs. 

they will end up paging more money to fix 676 Aka Vine street expressway. I can see it took alot of money to build roads & parks & buildings on top of a highway but when you're already halfway there you might as well keep it going. 3 full lanes & traffic probably wouldn't be backing up till the 95 exit which backs up during rush hour.

As far as I know, there are no plans to widen the eastern portion of the Vine Expressway.  There has been back-on-forth talk about building direct ramps between the expressway and the Ben Franklin Bridge over the years but no serious plans to do such has yet materialized.  The older, western section recently underwent a rehab/overhaul.

[jemacedo9]

Yes I was referring to that Jersey Barrier, thank you. Is that a granite Jersey Barrier? Or is it just colored differently, I do think its Granite like the city curbs.

Such looks like a run-of-the-mill concrete barrier to me.  IMHO, it's colored that way just due to age.

It is an old barrier and darkened due to age, but at the top of the barrier, there is a section "lined" with a small stone treatment, as a scenic / aesthetic touch. It's not granite, but it is slightly more than just a regular concrete barrier. If you zoom in and travel up or down the road just a little, Streetview shows it a little better.