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[roadman65]

The RCID is like some weird apocalyptic one-world government.  The District legally has to operate as an incoporated municipality but there's only a handful of private land plots and the owners of those plots just happen to be board of supervisors' members.  It's members are high-ranking Disney employees.  And while WDW is private property, the District, because it is a municipality, is not.  Which means the major roads that connect the parks together are public roads.

Except World Drive north of The Contemporary Resort is private.

[english si]

the city we all hoped to see

We hoped to see Walt Disney's idea of Tomorrowland utopia?

Trailer parks in swamps would be less hellish to live in!

[formulanone]

Understand that when Disney showed up, Orlando was a poor area of old people trailer parks and agriculture.  Disney knew this, and having bought up a huge amount of land in secret, told the state they could have what they wanted, or sell it back to the farmers and move on. 

That's another thing that bothered me about Disney World: how the land was obtained in the first place. Essentially Disney created a bunch of random sub-companies to buy up the land in secret, and even the real estate agents negotiating these purchases didn't know who they were working for. In fact, when word of these massive land purchases first got out, the general speculation was that NASA was behind them given Orlando's proximity to the KSC.

Who cares? It was mostly fallow, unpopulated swampland to begin with.

The previous owners of that land cared.

Would you care if someone came to buy your land, only to find out later the company may have been willing to pay 5 times as much?

Considering that there are many failed land deals in Florida's past and present - to the point of it being a bit of a continuing joke - I think they probably figured "well, there's one born every minute" to the prospective buyers, and gladly (and unwittingly) walked off.

Hindsight is always something-something.

[ErmineNotyours]

I've been to Walt Disney World once, and I went to see the One Man's Dream exhibit in Disney Hollywood Studios.  Walt's presentation of EPCOT on The Wonderful World of Disney was the last thing he filmed for the series, and the exhibit had the map he displayed on the show, or a reproduction of it.  Near the northwest corner of the map was a Disneyland copy "Theme Park" right where The Magic Kingdom was soon to be built.  It shows up in the show too, so it's not something they added for the exhibit.  Until then I thought construction of a Disneyland copy was a quick money-grab to do after Walt died, but here I saw that it was part of his original plans.

[jakeroot]

I've been a huge Disney fan most of my life. Not so much the movies (except Pixar, although they were separate entities the first eleven years of my life).

* I've been to Disney World five times: once in my mother's womb (1995), and then in 2002, 2009, 2018, and 2019.
* I've been to Disneyland at least 30 times, probably more (most recently last September, and again this December).

These visits were made easy for several reasons: I have access to standby tickets through Alaska Airlines (and have my entire life); the vast majority of my family elders (parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles) are all pretty hardcore Disney fans, and have been visiting with and without children since the early 70s (meaning the motivation to visit is strong); plus, my father and step-mother now have a ton of Disney Vacation Club points, so they visit Disney parks at least three times a year, sometimes more, as an obligation (which they are, obviously, happy to follow through with).

When I was younger, Disney was fascinating to me because of the thrill of the rides. It wasn't Magic Mountain, but it's very fun, and well-themed for children. I always had a blast, and many of my favorite memories as a child have taken place at Disney parks (usually Disneyland).

As I've grown older, my interest in the parks has drifted away from the thrill of the rides, and more into the intricacies of their operation: the aforementioned Haunted Mansion (stretching room, Hatbox Ghost, stretching door, etc); the Tower of Terror (very complex operation compared to other drop-tower rides); Space Mountain (cramming everything inside a building and then using two computers to somehow run a ridiculous number of trains at once); Expedition Everest (Disco Yeti!); I could go on for a long time (especially with the opening of Galaxy's Edge).

There's also the un-built side of Disney that I find fascinating: how Epcot is a shell of the original plan; how the German Epcot pavilion has room for a ride but one never opened; the dragon references at Animal Kingdom; etc.

Disney's Imagineers have really created some spectacular attractions; even if not from a thrilling point of view, their construction, operation, and attention to detail is unmatched by any other amusement park. I don't care how many roller coasters Cedar Point opens...they are fun, of course, but not "interesting" unless you're a roller coaster enthusiast; the rides eventually get boring and get replaced. Not so much at Disney parks. Many of their best attractions (Space Mountain, Matterhorn, Big Thunder) are fairly old by traditional measures. But they remain interesting because of the attention to detail that Disney pays. There are exceptions to this: the original California Adventure had many terrible rides, but those are generally exceptions, rather than the rule.

[DTComposer]

As I've grown older, my interest in the parks has drifted away from the thrill of the rides, and more into the intricacies of their operation: ...
Space Mountain (cramming everything inside a building and then using two computers to somehow run a ridiculous number of trains at once);

Riding Space Mountain with all the lights on gives you a real appreciation for the design  - just how compact and how little clearance there is - much more thrilling/scary than the regular ride for me.

[Rothman]

I actually think innovation at Disney -- at least in the Magic Kingdom and Disneyland -- is stifled by tradition.  People go there and expect the same old rides, so Disney cannot innovate like Six Flags and Cedar Fair in some regards -- except, of course, they just build yet another park...

I loved Disney when I was a kid, but found it a little dull last time I was there.  And now, since they own a lot of "universes," I sympathize with the memes that compare Disney to Thanos, wielding such rights dictatorially.  My view of them has quite jaded over the years.

[jakeroot]

As I've grown older, my interest in the parks has drifted away from the thrill of the rides, and more into the intricacies of their operation: ...
Space Mountain (cramming everything inside a building and then using two computers to somehow run a ridiculous number of trains at once);

Riding Space Mountain with all the lights on gives you a real appreciation for the design  - just how compact and how little clearance there is - much more thrilling/scary than the regular ride for me.

I have lived for such a moment, but have yet to experience it! I'm guessing you've done it? To be honest, I'd like to see it with the lights on, while stopped (necessitating a breakdown), so I can truly appreciate how compact it truly is. Having seen the pictures with the lights on, and being able to see little bits of the track thanks to security lights, definitely adds another level of fear while riding, though!

I actually think innovation at Disney -- at least in the Magic Kingdom and Disneyland -- is stifled by tradition.  People go there and expect the same old rides, so Disney cannot innovate like Six Flags and Cedar Fair in some regards -- except, of course, they just build yet another park...

What kind of innovation at Six Flags or Cedar Fair are you thinking of? They both build more intense coasters every time I turn around, which sometimes replace another coaster that had been fairly unique when it itself was constructed, but if that's not your thing, both places are pretty boring, honestly. What makes Disney interesting, at least to me, is that it's not necessarily about thrill: it's about attention to detail; the theme; animatronics; story-telling. It's not even really comparable to Six Flags/Cedar Fair, now that I think about it. There are elements of those "super" theme parks (California Screamin', Expedition Everest), but Disney is less about throwing you around, and more about having fun with the family through various themes and elements that don't necessarily entail high g-forces.

I loved Disney when I was a kid, but found it a little dull last time I was there.  And now, since they own a lot of "universes," I sympathize with the memes that compare Disney to Thanos, wielding such rights dictatorially.  My view of them has quite jaded over the years.

I agree with at least the last half of your statement. They seem to be buying up just about every company. This lends well to the Disney Parks, which were struggling financially until lately (thanks to things like the 9/11 attacks, and the flops that were California Adventure and Euro Disney (at least initially)), although it makes Disney look like this crazed juggernaut that's out to either buy or destroy all competing mediums. Which they sort of are, at this point!

[Scott5114]

Don't forget, they own the entire ABC network too (including ABC News!).

[roadman65]

I actually think innovation at Disney -- at least in the Magic Kingdom and Disneyland -- is stifled by tradition.  People go there and expect the same old rides, so Disney cannot innovate like Six Flags and Cedar Fair in some regards -- except, of course, they just build yet another park...

I loved Disney when I was a kid, but found it a little dull last time I was there.  And now, since they own a lot of "universes," I sympathize with the memes that compare Disney to Thanos, wielding such rights dictatorially.  My view of them has quite jaded over the years.

Disney closed the Peoplemover in Disneyland in 1994 because Eisner thought the ride outlived its use.  Yes they build new parks, but they still trade off on new stuff like Six Flags does as well.   Remember Mr. Toad's Wild Ride in Orlando got taken out for a new adventure,  Journey Into Inner Space got traded out for Star Tours, and do not forget Cracker Country in Anaheim (a new themed land along with Star Wars Land)!

Disney does change out rides too and some popular as was Mr. Toad.

[SP Cook]

IMHO, comparing Disney, particularly the Florida version, to your local regional amusement park is apples to oranges.  Your local park is probably very nice, particularly the ones run by the two big chains, Cedar Fair and Six Flags, but WDW is a national, actually continental, level draw.  It is another level of thing.

Disney is “stifled by tradition”, and that is a good thing.  Disney has never been about massive thril rides, and, while it has several, that is not the primary focus.

[1995hoo]

I never got to visit Disney World growing up, primarily because my parents didn't want to go there and wouldn't take us. I finally visited in 2011 (when I was 38). The rides were a lot more sedate than I think I had expected after growing up visiting Kings Dominion. I found the crowd control and the cleanliness to be really interesting, especially the crowd control compared with Kings Dominion. I enjoyed riding Splash Mountain because it's probably about the only way Disney acknowledges Song of the South these days. The Contemporary Resort was nice and it was interesting to see how well-designed the rooms were in terms of being large rooms (by today's standards) that utilized the space really well.

I think I found EPCOT more interesting than the Magic Kingdom even though the Test Track broke down right before I got to ride it (and then I didn't get back later that day because we needed to leave to drive up to Jacksonville), but I suppose to some degree that's probably what you'd expect for an adult versus a kid. If I'd been a kid, I'd have enjoyed the Magic Kingdom more, but no doubt part of it has to do with having grown up with more exciting rides than the Magic Kingdom offers.

[english si]

WDW is a national, actually continental, level draw

Global - most of my grade school class went there (Euro Disney was still a bit too new, and so didn't cut the mustard) as a big treat holiday - I remember having three years only having one week somewhere within 100 miles of home (rather than going to France for two weeks) in order to save up to go to WDW.

And my brother is currently there as a big treat 30th birthday present to himself (and while he wants to do Universal, Sea World and Busch Gardens, and would have got Cape Canaveral in if he could, it's specifically Disney he's gone to - though I know he'd enjoy the other stuff more). For some reason (despite it requiring mum to veto 7 year old him and 11 year old me refusing to go on the ride when we went there in '97), he's been on Its A Small World - that hellish dystopia celebrating diversity that only goes skin deep as they all parrot the same ideological line over and over in a really annoying way like they have no taste or personality or anything. Now my brother hates tradition and really hates tweeness, so he was probably inoculating himself for the day against further such stuff by giving himself a worst-case-scenario as it was the first thing he did.

I enjoyed riding Splash Mountain because it's probably about the only way Disney acknowledges Song of the South these days.

That's your takeaway from Splash Mountain - it was good because it references a non-PC film?

I enjoyed riding Splash Mountain as, other than Space Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, it's the only big ride in the Magic Kingdom - and it's a good one (struggling to remember back 22 years to other ones - IASW for its horror, and the one where they blow air at you and shake your seat in the dark like a vicious alien is in the room with you is all I remember).

The Song of the South theming adds little, other than critter animatronics to make the experience more annoying (which is the Magic Kingdom tradition!) and take about 11 minutes to do 2600'. Loggers' Leap (RIP) at Thorpe Park was a better log flume, even though it was far cheaper-looking, because it cared more about substance than style - 2' higher drop (though half the top speed due to putting an airtime bump on the big drop) and only taking about 3 minutes to do 1709' as it knows what a log flume is about is a big drop and getting you wet, not floating around for a long time.

I think I found EPCOT more interesting than the Magic Kingdom even though the Test Track broke down right before I got to ride it

EPCOT was the park I preferred. I think we did two full days there, which we didn't manage in the Magic Kingdom - I guess we could have ridden the better rides more than once, but really we got sick of the Magic Kingdom. Some stuff was great, other stuff was fine in small doses, but quite a lot was boring, and you couldn't get away with a small dose as the Disney is poured down your throat there.

Anyway, back to EPCOT - a bit too much walking, not a fan of the UK just being a 'pub', and a small garden with certain characters, and that's it. But the big disappointment was that they'd been advertising Test Track quite a bit on the TV while I was there and got me hyped and I couldn't go on it (it didn't have a soft opening until December '98, and I was there in the summer '97) - it looked better than it.

MGM Studios (now Disney's Hollywood Studios) was good - the shows were fun. Universal did it better I think (both LA and Orlando iterations), but MGM was more enjoyable than Magic Kingdom and the Tower of Terror was my favourite ride at Disney. Islands of Adventure (OK, I did that aged 17, not 11) is the Orlando area park I enjoyed the most though perhaps as it cared more about the rides than the theming.

[roadman]

Went to Disneyland once, when I was in LA in 1984.  Had a fun time, but view it as a "Been there, done that" type experience.  And I have no desire to go to WDW/Epcot in Florida.

[ErmineNotyours]

WDW is a national, actually continental,  For some reason (despite it requiring mum to veto 7 year old him and 11 year old me refusing to go on the ride when we went there in '97), he's been on Its A Small World - that hellish dystopia celebrating diversity that only goes skin deep as they all parrot the same ideological line over and over in a really annoying way like they have no taste or personality or anything. Now my brother hates tradition and really hates tweeness, so he was probably inoculating himself for the day against further such stuff by giving himself a worst-case-scenario as it was the first thing he did.

It's worse than that.  It was developed for the 1964 New York World's Fair, for their theme of "Peace Through Understanding."  So during the run-up to the Vietnam War, this was what was supposed to create world harmony.  Eh.  And yet I've fallen under its spell.  It might be better appreciated as vintage Disney rather than any real attempt at creating world peace.

[roadman65]

I heard that the Carousel Of Progress and Its A Small World were attractions at the 64 Fair where Flushing Meadows Park is now located near Citi Field in NY.

I remember that carousel in Anaheim as it was a theatre that had five auditoriums and after each show the theatre would move around the stage from one show to the other.  At the end the last auditorium would have a speedramp where the stage is and take people up one level to a model of Disney's planned Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow.  Now since it got moved to Disney World it has five shows as the speedwalk to the second level is not present there like it was in California.

Also to note Disney is the only place to not use moving stairs as the speedwalk is a conveyor type of lift that never really took off.  I did here though the original Erie PATH Station in Jersey City, NJ used one to take people from the subway to the above ground station that Erie abandoned once they merged with Delaware Lackawana to form Erie-Lackawana Railway and made Hoboken their main terminal.  However that I think was concurrent with Disneyland in the late 50's and early 60's so that was Goodyear's only other known use for the Speedwalk that I know of.   Too bad it is a great escalator as you can take a wheelchair and stroller on no problem.

[ErmineNotyours]

I heard that the Carousel Of Progress and Its A Small World were attractions at the 64 Fair where Flushing Meadows Park is now located near Citi Field in NY.

I remember that carousel in Anaheim as it was a theatre that had five auditoriums and after each show the theatre would move around the stage from one show to the other.  At the end the last auditorium would have a speedramp where the stage is and take people up one level to a model of Disney's planned Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow.  Now since it got moved to Disney World it has five shows as the speedwalk to the second level is not present there like it was in California.

The Epcot model is still in the upper level of a structure in Disney World's Magic Kingdom, maybe above Carousel of Progress, but it can only be seen very briefly from the Tomorowland Transit Authority Peoplemover.  They really should move the model to One Man's Journey so you can see it longer.

Also to note Disney is the only place to not use moving stairs as the speedwalk is a conveyor type of lift that never really took off.  I did here though the original Erie PATH Station in Jersey City, NJ used one to take people from the subway to the above ground station that Erie abandoned once they merged with Delaware Lackawana to form Erie-Lackawana Railway and made Hoboken their main terminal.  However that I think was concurrent with Disneyland in the late 50's and early 60's so that was Goodyear's only other known use for the Speedwalk that I know of.   Too bad it is a great escalator as you can take a wheelchair and stroller on no problem.

There were also Speedways in Downtown Tacoma (Escalades) and the Washington State Ferry Terminal in Seattle.  The fact that they persist at Disney is perfect for the "future that never was" theming they tried to use to avoid the future always catching up with them.

Flat moving sidewalks persist at airports.  Just the other day I saw a Speedway at the Metrotown Real Canadian Super Store near Vancouver, for moving shopping carts down to the parking garage.  When the customer places the cart on the ramp, the wheels lock so it won't roll down the ramp.

[Big John]

Just the other day I saw a Speedway at the Metrotown Real Canadian Super Store near Vancouver, for moving shopping carts down to the parking garage.  When the customer places the cart on the ramp, the wheels lock so it won't roll down the ramp.

IKEA stores also have such escalators.

[Rothman]

Just the other day I saw a Speedway at the Metrotown Real Canadian Super Store near Vancouver, for moving shopping carts down to the parking garage.  When the customer places the cart on the ramp, the wheels lock so it won't roll down the ramp.

IKEA stores also have such escalators.

And the Walmart in Crossgates Commons near Albany, NY.

[jakeroot]

There were also Speedways in Downtown Tacoma (Escalades) and the Washington State Ferry Terminal in Seattle.

There's very little evidence of these left, apart from a few boarded up sections of stairs (which I believe replaced the moving walkways). There's also this article by local historic Michael Sullivan. Wish I could find more info about these, but they seem to have been taken out about as quickly as they went in, thanks to poor maintenance and a persistent smell of piss (apparently).

[english si]

Just the other day I saw a Speedway at the Metrotown Real Canadian Super Store near Vancouver, for moving shopping carts down to the parking garage.  When the customer places the cart on the ramp, the wheels lock so it won't roll down the ramp.

IKEA stores also have such escalators.

All two floor supermarkets in the UK that I've been to do (though there's not that many).

Oddly, not all multi-floor IKEAs in the UK do. Wembley is an older design, and you don't get the carts until you get down to the lower floor.

IKEA Southampton has around 10, having a crampt site which means many floors.

[jakeroot]

Oddly, not all multi-floor IKEAs in the UK do. Wembley is an older design, and you don't get the carts until you get down to the lower floor.

The new IKEA here in Seattle has the carts/trolleys on the lower floor as well (with regular escalators to go up, stairs to come down). Would you normally attribute this to an older design standard? Not sure how new IKEAs in the UK are configured.

[1995hoo]

The Target near us at Springfield Mall has a special escalator for the carts located between the regular escalators for people. (There's also an elevator nearby for people who can't use escalators, such as wheelchair users.) I've never seen one of the sort shown in ErmineNotyours's photo. The one at Target has a steeper slope than that one appears to have. You push your cart through a little gate and the thing has what are sort of like metal teeth to hold the cart in place on the way down. It also holds the cart basket level.

There used to be a two-level Harris Teeter in Fairfax City in which the pharmacy was upstairs. That store simply had an elevator for taking the carts upstairs. I believe the one in Arlington near Ballston has/had the same general layout (not sure if it's still the case as I haven't been there in a long time).

Either design is better than what I regularly see on the Metro—people taking strollers on the regular escalators and bending over to hold them steady. A year or two ago a wheelchair user attempted to ride up an escalator using his arms to hold the wheelchair in place. He lost his grip near the top, the wheelchair flipped over backwards and crashed down the escalator, and he died. Apparently he had pressed the button for the elevator but got mad that it didn't come within ten seconds.

[oscar]

There used to be a two-level Harris Teeter in Fairfax City in which the pharmacy was upstairs. That store simply had an elevator for taking the carts upstairs. I believe the one in Arlington near Ballston has/had the same general layout (not sure if it's still the case as I haven't been there in a long time).

I shop at both of Arlington's bi-level Harris Teeters (another, near Crystal City, is one-level). The general layout is the same, with a big elevator with room for two or three shopping carts plus shoppers.

The Wal-Mart in Tysons Corner at least used to have a shopping cart escalator like Target's, this one to bring shopping carts to parking on the upper level. I say "used to have" because it's been out of service for many weeks, though I did use it once a long time ago. Elevators are also available.

[english si]

The new IKEA here in Seattle has the carts/trolleys on the lower floor as well (with regular escalators to go up, stairs to come down). Would you normally attribute this to an older design standard? Not sure how new IKEAs in the UK are configured.

Maybe it's not an old design standard (in the sense of outdated), but an old one in the sense of how they always used to do things.

eg Southampton is an urban layout (though not quite as vertical as 7-floor Coventry. 'Urban' IKEAs with a smaller footprint are only found in the UK and Hong Kong, AFAICS. Though I'm sure there's more countries that have urban locations that are merely 'planning studio' or 'order and collection point' rather than a full store) and so everything is on its own floor! There's no initial interior escalator up as the entrance is on floor 4 and exit on floor 2 - with moving ramps on the outside (under cover) between car park structure and store structure to move both people and trolleys.

*or 'show off the big stuff', 'little stuff', 'big stuff in boxes' if you don't know their terms.