NY - I-90 in Albany and the Berkshire Spur

[Dougtone]

Yes they would.  New York State adopted the Federal MUTCD, and as a state agency, the Thruway Authority would also have to comply.

The Thruway Authority is technically considered to be a public benefit authority, but since they do employ state workers, they do need to comply to the Federal MUTCD.

[akotchi]

Try that argument with the New Jersey Turnpike Authority . . .

[Alps]

Any agency that doesn't receive Federal funds doesn't have to comply with the MUTCD unless the state government forces them to.  The NJTA has enough political clout within NJ to avoid that situation.  Port Authority, being a bistate agency, is also exempt.

[mightyace]

Any agency that doesn't receive Federal funds doesn't have to comply with the MUTCD unless the state government forces them to.

Of course, the Feds could say to the state in question, "Unless you make the <insert highway here>, we'll pull your highway funds."  -  That's what they did for the National Speed Limit and the National Drinking age of 21.

[agentsteel53]

Suffixed routes are being ended slowly. Also, I-90N once applied to the alignment of current day 190 and will not happen again

really?  do you have a photo by any chance of a New York I-90N shield?

[Snappyjack]

Yes they would.  New York State adopted the Federal MUTCD, and as a state agency, the Thruway Authority would also have to comply.

The Thruway Authority is technically considered to be a public benefit authority, but since they do employ state workers, they do need to comply to the Federal MUTCD.

What I am wondering is, will the NYSTA be sneaky enough to do the exits by the mile of the actual Thruway mainline, not 87 and 90 separately. Hopefully they will do it the right way. 

[mightyace]

What I am wondering is, will the NYSTA be sneaky enough to do the exits by the mile of the actual Thruway mainline, not 87 and 90 separately. Hopefully they will do it the right way.  

Well, both the mainline Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70, I-76, I-276 and future I-95) and the Ohio Turnpike (I-76, I-80 and I-90) and, I think, the Kansas Turnpike all number their exits by turnpike mileage not that of the multiple interstates that go on the respective highways.

One reason that I think that they do that is because these turnpike use a ticket system and figuring out toll rates could be very confusing if the exit numbers changed when the highway number changed.

[sammack]

Fixed upcoming tag - SMA

This may have been asked before.  Does the NYSTA have to renumber the Thruway with mileage based exits as they are not a federally funded highway?

Actually, they are federally funded in the following areas:

Buffalo main line exits 50-55

Third lane widening from exits 24-25, in return the Thruway provides free tolls from 25A to 24 and from 25A to 26.  This was as a replacement for constructing I-88 thru Rotterdam to I-87.

Rockland Co exits 10-15A, formerly it was 10-14A, but with the construction of exits 15-15A (I-287) it was extended with toll free access for non-commercial vehicles.

Exits 1-6A in Westchester Co

The New England Thwy (I-95) in The Bronx from Pelham pkwy to the Westchester Co line

[Alps]

Suffixed routes are being ended slowly. Also, I-90N once applied to the alignment of current day 190 and will not happen again

really?

Yes, really.

[akotchi]

Any agency that doesn't receive Federal funds doesn't have to comply with the MUTCD unless the state government forces them to.

Of course, the Feds could say to the state in question, "Unless you make the <insert highway here>, we'll pull your highway funds."  -  That's what they did for the National Speed Limit and the National Drinking age of 21.

I'd be curious to see if the FHWA decides to enforce this.

[Michael]

I'd be happy to see it designated as I-187 (or whatever 3di number seems most appropriate), leaving the other designations alone.

Agreed.

[Strider]

Thread resurrected!


I think they should just multiplex I-90 with I-87 down to the Berkshire Spur. The free I-90 can be I-87 and I-687. Or they can leave the designs alone, just use the Spur between I-87 and I-90 and call it I-487 or something like this: I-487 EAST TO I-90 EAST, BOSTON.

[hotdogPi]

Thread resurrected!


I think they should just multiplex I-90 with I-87 down to the Berkshire Spur. The free I-90 can be I-87 and I-687. Or they can leave the designs alone, just use the Spur between I-87 and I-90 and call it I-487 or something like this: I-487 EAST TO I-90 EAST, BOSTON.

The unnumbered section should stay unnumbered. It's just a really long ramp.

[hbelkins]

The unnumbered section should stay unnumbered. It's just a really long ramp.

You mean like I-865 in Indiana?

[cl94]

Putting I-90 over that section has never been anything more than NYSTA wanting the extra toll revenue. It might save 5 minutes as opposed to going through Albany (can be less if Free 90 is moving at its usual speed), there are no services, and it costs an extra $1.65.

[PHLBOS]

FWIW, one of my old Rand McNally New York state maps from the mid-70s under its toll-road/bridge/tunnel listings had the Berkshire Section of the Thruway between I-87 & I-90 listed as I-190.

That said, I would just make the unnumbered portion of the Berkshire Section of the Thruway as either I-x87 (which ever number's available) or even designate it as NY 1090 and leave everything else in the area alone.

Well, both the mainline Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70, I-76, I-276 and future I-95) and the Ohio Turnpike (I-76, I-80 and I-90) and, I think, the Kansas Turnpike all number their exits by turnpike mileage not that of the multiple interstates that go on the respective highways.

With regards to the PA Turnpike, I did see some preliminary signing plans a few years ago for the I-95 connection.  The exit numbers & mile markers for the future I-95 section of the Turnpike will be changed to be a continuation of the I-95 mile markers (Exit 42+).  Should the conversion to AET not take place right away, the toll-ticket section of the PA Turnpike will also likely be truncated just west of the I-95 interchange.

[MikeSantNY78]

I would just make the unnumbered portion of the Berkshire Section of the Thruway as either I-x87 (which ever number's available) or even designate it as NY 1090 and leave everything else in the area alone.

The country's first mainland 4di!!!

[hotdogPi]

I would just make the unnumbered portion of the Berkshire Section of the Thruway as either I-x87 (which ever number's available) or even designate it as NY 1090 and leave everything else in the area alone.

The country's first mainland 4di!!!

Kentucky has 4-digit routes.

[english si]

Not a 4di though!

That said, we've had I-180N and there's some suffixed spur routes of 3dis...

[agentsteel53]

I-180N

I thought that was just signed as I-180, or am I misremembering?

[Brandon]

Suffixed routes are being ended slowly. Also, I-90N once applied to the alignment of current day 190 and will not happen again

really?

Yes, really.

Now, looking back, it seems funny.  The various I-69s now say "Hi!".

I-180N

I thought that was just signed as I-180, or am I misremembering?

IIRC, I-180 PA was just I-180; I-180 ID was I-180N.  It is unknown if I-184 was signed as I-180N.

[agentsteel53]

I-180 ID was I-180N.  It is unknown if I-184 was signed as I-180N.

I can't parse this.  I would imagine the Idaho route was signed 180N before the renumbering, and 184 after.  what else are you intending?

[cl94]

The thing is that there is no reason to give the short unnumbered section of the Berkshire Spur an interstate designation except for a money grab. Being a toll road, it would get no federal funding and it isn't significant enough to get a designation. There are no exits or rest areas along that 6.58-mile stretch. Currently, it is signed as "To I-87/90", a designation that works for the purpose, and it already carries the unsigned NY 912M, which is referenced nowhere but NYSDOT documents because NYSTA doesn't post reference markers.

If they wanted to, it could be posted as NY 487. NY 1090 would not work because New York does not have 4-digit state routes except for unsigned reference routes and a couple of short suffixed routes. However, BGSes at Exit 1 would still be for I-90 East and Exit B1 would be for I-87. Nothing would change, but they'd have to replace all of the signage at great cost.

[xcellntbuy]

The section of the Berkshire Spur of the New York State Thruway between Exits 21A and B1 has been a lonely, quiet, underused stretch of highway for a long, long time.  The two service areas were closed years ago.  After they were closed, the service areas were used as a huge parking area for new state police cars and highway maintenance equipment.

There is very little traffic and surrounding local roads in that part of southwestern Rensselaer County are sparsely populated with little development.  Because there is no exit between US 9/Interstate 90 (Exit B1) to the mainline Interstate 87 (Exit 21A), crossing the Hudson River with such limited access is not attractive to traffic.  NY 9J would be the only possible state highway for a potential exit, but the uphill climb from NY 9J to the Berkshire Spur would be impossible without a long, long elevated ramp system.  A railroad bridge would also block access.

One of the other interesting facets of the 8-mile stretch of the Thruway is not just the Castleton Bridge, but one of the widest medians in the system, immediately east of the Bridge.  It is also one of the last sections of the Thruway to be repaved after becoming rutted and degraded asphalt.

The rest area built on Interstate 90 between Exits 12 and 11 was heavily used for years, then as New York periodically ran out money, the rest area was reduced, used a mobile weigh station from time-to-time, then occasionally closed and now, gated off completely.  They don't even mow the lawn anymore.

[cl94]

The section of the Berkshire Spur of the New York State Thruway between Exits 21A and B1 has been a lonely, quiet, underused stretch of highway for a long, long time.  The two service areas were closed years ago.  After they were closed, the service areas were used as a huge parking area for new state police cars and highway maintenance equipment.

There is very little traffic and surrounding local roads in that part of southwestern Rensselaer County are sparsely populated with little development.  Because there is no exit between US 9/Interstate 90 (Exit B1) to the mainline Interstate 87 (Exit 21A), crossing the Hudson River with such limited access is not attractive to traffic.  NY 9J would be the only possible state highway for a potential exit, but the uphill climb from NY 9J to the Berkshire Spur would be impossible without a long, long elevated ramp system.  A railroad bridge would also block access.

One of the other interesting facets of the 8-mile stretch of the Thruway is not just the Castleton Bridge, but one of the widest medians in the system, immediately east of the Bridge.  It is also one of the last sections of the Thruway to be repaved after becoming rutted and degraded asphalt.

The rest area built on Interstate 90 between Exits 12 and 11 was heavily used for years, then as New York periodically ran out money, the rest area was reduced, used a mobile weigh station from time-to-time, then occasionally closed and now, gated off completely.  They don't even mow the lawn anymore.

To give people an idea, that stretch of highway had an AADT of 12,700 in 2011. The stretches of I-87 immediately north and south of Exit 21A are around 40,000 (+/- 3,000) and Free 90 just west of B1 is around 15,000. Heck, the section of I-90 on the Berkshire Spur is only 23,900, dropping under 22,000 at the Taconic. The only section of the mainline (that I know of) with numbers that low is in Chautauqua and southern Erie Counties. Most of the Thruway system is between 30,000 and 50,000. There is nothing there. It runs through the middle of nowhere and there aren't enough people going to Boston from Upstate New York and Southern Ontario. It's one of the most remote parts of the state that isn't in Adirondack or Catskill Parks. I can't say it's overbuilt because it's the only east-west limited access highway north of I-84 in that part of the country, but part of me says to make the Berkshire Spur west of B1 a super two to save money as there isn't enough traffic to warrant much more.