Brands you feel you have an attachment to

[vdeane]

Spending time with family is possible if they live nearby.  If not, then (1) that's a lifestyle choice and (2) hitchhiking is free.  Take it from someone who used to do plenty of hitchhiking back before (and also after) I got married.

These days, one usually moves to where they can get a job offer, especially at entry level (and it's getting harder to find jobs outside of big cities, especially for professional work).  If you want more choice about where to live, you generally have to be willing to move further away so that your job search will encompass more metro areas.  No doubt one of the reasons it was harder for me to find a job after college was because I'm not willing to move outside upstate NY.

The post I replied to said nothing about taxes.  Why did you assume $20k was before taxes?  I didn't.

I hardly spend any money on clothes.  One pair of pants a year, tops.  Hardly ever shirts or socks.  One pair of shoes every few years.  Not a factor.

At least around here, job salaries are always quoted as the rate before taxes are taken out.

Regarding clothes, there are gender differences as well.  Men's clothes tend to be cheaper, fit better, last longer, are warmer (thicker, longer sleeves, etc.) and fewer things are needed (no bras, for example, plus the need to layer clothes).  I probably spend about $300/year and still fill like I'm perpetually behind regarding filling out my wardrobe and replacing things that wear out.  Not to mention, that the more business-like you need to dress for work, the more expensive things will be and the less you can let it wear out before it needs to be replaced.

Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.

In the year 1970, the United States minimum wage was $1.60.

That's $10.66 after adjusting for inflation.  Meanwhile, federal minimum wage is still $7.25.

[Beltway]

In the year 1970, the United States minimum wage was $1.60.

That's $10.66 after adjusting for inflation.  Meanwhile, federal minimum wage is still $7.25.

It still wasn't enough to support one person living independently assuming a 40 hour week.

Minimum wage never has been designed for that. 

[Max Rockatansky]

In the year 1970, the United States minimum wage was $1.60.

That's $10.66 after adjusting for inflation.  Meanwhile, federal minimum wage is still $7.25.

It still wasn't enough to support one person living independently assuming a 40 hour week.

Minimum wage never has been designed for that.

Besides most states with a high cost of living already exceed that $10.66 figure and current $7.25 Federal Minimum via state laws.  Minimum wage in California moved to $13 an hour for businesses over 26 employees and $12 for those under.   The minimum will be $15 across the board come 2023.   $13-$15 won't be enough for a person trying to live alone in the bigger cities but in rural areas or small cities like Fresno/Bakersfield it probably can be done bare bones factoring the high state income tax.  Either way the pay scale increases at least here were meant to reflect entry level working wages in urban areas, those jobs aren't exactly meant to be long lasting. 

[kphoger]

Men's clothes tend to ... last longer, are warmer ...

Oh, heck yeah!  It boggles the mind how much thinner women's shirts are, for example.  Holes and runners develop in such short order, it's pathetic.  OTOH, they tend to stretch better, so maybe the two are related.  And God help you find a good underwire bra that (1) doesn't end up having the wire poking out after a year and (2) still fits your body shape after two years.

In the year 1970, the United States minimum wage was $1.60.

That's $10.66 after adjusting for inflation.  Meanwhile, federal minimum wage is still $7.25.

It still wasn't enough to support one person living independently assuming a 40 hour week.

Minimum wage never has been designed for that. 

Correct.  A 'living wage' is that which allows one to meet his or her needs without further assistance.  A 'minimum wage' assumes that those on the bottom may still require assistance to meet their needs.

[kphoger]

for a person trying to live alone

I just don't think people who make the minimum should expect to be able to necessarily afford living on their own.

[Max Rockatansky]

for a person trying to live alone

I just don't think people who make the minimum should expect to be able to necessarily afford living on their own.

Nor do I, those pay scales usually are oriented towards people living with roommates or family.  The indirect consequence of the wage hikes here locally is that someone probably "could live alone"  in a low cost areas on a full time minimum wage job if they were crafty with their budget.  But then again if someone making minimum wage is fantastic with money management they aren't likely to be making minimum wage for long. 

On a personal level I was able to live splitting the cost of housing with two other people in the Phoenix Market when $7.25 became law.  When I was making $14 an hour two years later I rolled that money into renting my own place.  That's the typical progression I see minimum wage designed fit into with entry level employment and adulthood.  The problem with a Federal Minimum is that it can't possibly factor the cost of living for fifty states which can vary hugely.  More so, job seekers aren't meant to stay in entry level jobs. 

A good example of how pay scales have worked differently for me.  In Florida I would typically start my security people at $9-10 an hour in Metro Orlando on entry level jobs.  Most of those guys were going to school and share the cost of living with someone.  Florida has no income tax and pretty much the cost of everything low compared to most states.  For the same jobs I start people at $14-$15 in California which is largely an adjustment based on the high income tax level and cost of goods like gas being near the highest in the nation.  $15 dollars an hour minimum in Florida would be absurd but it is more logical in California. 

[Rothman]

Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.

In the year 1970, the United States minimum wage was $1.60.

Assuming a 40-hour week, that wasn't nearly enough to support one person in a tiny apartment with an old car, with no college.

For example, my father went to the University of Utah in the late 1960s and his tuition for four years of college COMBINED was less than $1000 in CURRENT dollars.

Two family members went to Virginia Tech in the early 1970s, one of the lower priced public universities at the time.  Four years of tuition and room and board was about $7,000 for a student, as paid at that time.

Even more stunning for Millennials is that there were public colleges that even had FREE tuition for Boomers (e.g., Queens College -- not your most exclusive place).

Where other than NYC, and only a couple.

Kids these days face economic challenges not seen since the Depression.

More like attitude challenges.  I see nothing above about learning a trade.  They are always in demand, and many of them pay very well.

Let's not be ingenuine; I'll do the inflation calculation that you deliberately ignored:  $1.60 in 1970 is $10.61 today.  Current fed minimum wage = $7.25.

You added room and board making the comparison inappropriate.  And because of the examples I provided, your assertion that VA Tech was on the cheaper side is unfounded.

I agree about the trades.  However, the exponential cost in attending college has been outright immoral.

[Rothman]

Rather than criticizing millennials like some are wont to do, I made some positive and uplifting statements.  A lot are doing very well, per various reports.

It's cool that you have one or two friends that are doing well for themselves. That's not the experience of the majority, so citing those examples isn't really uplifting, it just serves to shit on those that aren't.

It is many more than one or two, and most are not 'friends' per se.

I have to admit that I am attracted to single women in that age group!  They can bear children.  In my church, one is a registered nurse, another an accountant supervisor, another a dietician.

Check this out
https://dynamicsignal.com/2018/10/09/key-statistics-millennials-in-the-workplace/
Excerpts:
Millennials already are the largest segment in the workplace.  Within the next two years, 50 percent of the U.S. workforce is expected to be made up of Millennials.  It will be 75 percent by 2030, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"Millennials are first-generation digital natives who feel at home on the Internet,"  concluded the guide "How Millennials Want to Work and Live."   "Technology — particularly gadgets like smartphones, but also tablets and laptops — have revolutionized the way they connect and interact with one another and the rest of the world.  While the vast majority of Americans surf the Web from a desktop or laptop computer at home or work, 85 percent of Millennials access the Internet from their phones — more than all other generations."

"Millennials are more likely to use higher-end technologies in their personal lives, so it's no surprise that they have a more positive view of IT strategies that encourage the use of personal devices at work,"  according to the "Millennial Digital Workers Really Do Differ from Their Elders"  report.

"The Best Workplaces for Millennials give employees the tools they need to succeed,"  wrote CEO Michael Bush.  "They set the bar for other organizations seeking to retain and develop the next generation of leaders and prove that giving Millennials jobs with purpose and meaning drives them to give their best at work, benefitting the company as a whole."

End of the day things could be way worse, it's not like the Great Depression is on and 25% of the population is unemployed.  I would rather be in the position of someone trying to make a career now as opposed to having face some of the Industrial Revolution era work environments.  Also, teens used to be expected to work and produce in manual labor, that isn't the wide scale thing it once was.  Suffice to say the career problems of Millennials are somewhat luxurious compared to some generations of the not so far past.

Nah.  Take a look at the federal minimum wage's value adjusted for inflation over time and do the same with costs for college.  In terms of getting paid, Boomers benefitted from a minimim wage that paid basic bills and very cheap college.  For example, my father went to the University of Utah in the late 1960s and his tuition for four years of college COMBINED was less than $1000 in CURRENT dollars.  Even more stunning for Millennials is that there were public colleges that even had FREE tuition for Boomers (e.g., Queens College -- not your most exclusive place).

Kids these days face economic challenges not seen since the Depression.

You do realize most people in early 20th Century America would consider a high school education to be a luxury for the common person?  More so, you get into things like the almost total lack of societal systems that would actually help people back before World War II was a massive problem?   Suffice to say as a whole from the standpoint of quality of life for the average person in the United States has steadily improved since World War II.  I'm not saying the world is perfect nor the economy is as good as the 1960s, I'm just saying that this isn't the end time for millennials or future generations since things could be infinitely worse.  I would concede inflation in regards to college hasn't kept pace with historic values but there are a lot of other things that are still within proportion. 

Also, speaking of brands why whenever the conversation of colleges comes up is it about just four year schools?   Most four year schools will accept transfers from two year junior colleges.  That is a pretty good way to bypass a lot of the up front costs of a four year school (especially loan) or avoiding living in a dorm.  I want to say the average credit hour was $50-55 at the Maricopa County Junior colleges in the early 2000s compared to the $300-$400 at Arizona State in the early 2000s (if I remember right).  It was way easier to pay for courses out of pocket at a JC in my early 20s since I could transfer them to the big school.  It seems like most the college talk these days is still oriented towards the "name brand"  schools when it really doesn't matter for average profession where a degree comes from.

So...safety nets (welfare?) is your answer?  I am saying that for Boomers, they didn't need safety nets because of the higher value of the minimum wage.

I agree that going to community college is cheaper, but for Boomers to have been able to better afford college for four years and having a better paying wage to then turn around and bash the younger generations given the current economic fiasco Boomers themselves are responsible for is ridiculous.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Well my original comparison really wasn't about the living conditions of Baby Boomers it was the generations right before them.  Post World War II America went through an economic boom which was unprecedented for the average person.  There was no way that the heights of purchasing power were going to stay at that level forever.  What I was trying to say was that things haven't declined to the point of Depression Era economics where mass unemployment and what would many would consider "true poverty"  were much more of a regular occurrence.  That isn't to say things could get better or worse for future generations.  Right now things are definitely trending towards a harder way of life for younger people. 

Regarding the brand equity of four year colleges, I certainly hope that tapers off with time with all the other options available.  Most of the angst from Baby Boomers towards Millennials seems to be mostly attributable to older people just not liking younger generations, that certainly isn't a new phenomenon.  So called "Greatest Generation" ' aged folks gave Baby Boomers and Gen-Xs just as much crap but didn't have a mass media platform to vocalize it like Boomed/Gen-Xers do now. 

[kphoger]

Tying the concept of scraping pennies back to the original topic of this thread, let's talk about store-brand grocery items.

For most items, I don't care what brand is on the outside.  I just want what costs less but doesn't suck.  For several things, I actually enjoy the cheapest brand the best.  My morning granola is a great example:  the best I've found is the Kroger store brand, and it's way cheaper than the name brands.

However, there are certain items for which I just refuse to buy off-brands.  If I can't afford the name brand, then I simply don't buy it at all. Such items for me are...
- Nabisco Fig Newtons, because the other brands are nasty.
- Saran wrap, the only brand of cling wrap that doesn't end up a tangled mess for me, plus it's strong.
- Dole pineapple juice, because nothing else comes close.

[Max Rockatansky]

For the most part I just buy the store-brand version whenever available.  Obviously the cost is usually substantially cheaper than name brands and sometimes comes from the same supplier.   Even generic items like Kirkland Vodka more often than not are just as good as name brand equivalents.  Walmart has their own brand of Sodas also which often are just as good or superior to name brand counterparts. 

[kphoger]

Even generic items like Kirkland All Vodka more often than not are just as good as name brand equivalents.

I realize these might be fighting words, but vodka is vodka is vodka.  They say the only slight taste variation is mainly due to the water it's diluted with, not the actual liquor itself.

Just recently, I bought my first bottle of gin.  Does anyone have any "brand attachment" to a certain kind of gin?  There are couple I'd like try, but that's a fairly high-dollar item to just go trying things out willy-nilly.

[Max Rockatansky]

Even generic items like Kirkland All Vodka more often than not are just as good as name brand equivalents.

I realize these might be fighting words, but vodka is vodka is vodka.  They say the only slight taste variation is mainly due to the water it's diluted with, not the actual liquor itself.

Just recently, I bought my first bottle of gin.  Does anyone have any "brand attachment" to a certain kind of gin?  There are couple I'd like try, but that's a fairly high-dollar item to just go trying things out willy-nilly.

Vodka is pretty vanilla and hard to get something that appreciably less quality.  I tend to stick Tanqueray with Gin but haven't really had enough of it give a qualified opinion on if there is much variance in taste between labels.  Whiskey seems to be one of the liquors that get a much better taste the more expensive you go.  Rum tends to have some varying taste, I tend to stick to Sailor Jerry's since I like mine spiced. 

Speaking of cost savings measures, cheap store brand vodka used to be one of my big coat savers in my early 20s.  The nice thing with Vodka was that it was easy to drink straight or mix with whatever soda you so desired.  I used to make Mountain Dew Vodka mixers for Sunday's that I had to myself to watch racing and NFL.  I want to say the store brand Vodkas usually cost $9-$10 dollars back in the early 2000s.  Usually a bottle would last me one or two months which was way cheaper than buying packs of beer. 

[DaBigE]

Tying the concept of scraping pennies back to the original topic of this thread, let's talk about store-brand grocery items.

For most items, I don't care what brand is on the outside.  I just want what costs less but doesn't suck.

I'm the same way for the most part.

Food-wise, Mac & Cheese, Oreos, and soda are the only things we will not buy in an off-brand. Whatever Kraft puts in their cheese flavoring the generics can't match...similar with the Oreo creme. We will occasionally make an exception with soda, but only for generic cola or "Dr. Pepper-esq" flavors. We usually have Vanilla or Cherry Coke in the fridge (right now, Cinnamon Coke)...again, flavors the generic companies cannot match.

Usually we'll go with off-brand paper towels, storage bags, and kitchen wrap. There is a particular brand (the name escapes me at the moment) we do stick with for trash bags, as they're the only ones stocked in our area that are biodegradable (without decomposing before it gets to the trash truck).

Tape is another item we'll go name-brand (Scotch). We've fumbled with way to many dollar-store tape that sticks better to itself than anything else (combined with dispensers that can't cut it) over the years.

[kphoger]

Trash bags and paper towels are two household items we stick with the brand name for, too.  I get sick of trash bags tearing or paper towels not absorbing.

For toilet paper, I'm brand-loyal to Cottonelle, the purple package.  Anything cheaper is too harsh, and anything more expensive is too pillowy.  For the back bathroom (kids only), we buy the cheap stuff.

Ooh!  Wrapping paper.  I only buy it at the Hallmark store now.  Much better paper, and you get more than ten square inches on a roll.

[DaBigE]

Ooh!  Wrapping paper.  I only buy it at the Hallmark store now.  Much better paper, and you get more than ten square inches on a roll.

We found some at Costco several years back... I think it's a metallic paper. Super durable, recyclable, and reasonably priced. I don't recall how many square feet, but as you can imaging, significantly more than you'd get in any regular store. We've been using it for any holiday wrapping needs (got a generic pattern/color) for at least three years now -- based on how much is left on the roll, we'll be using it for at least another four years.

[noelbotevera]

I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring, as a member of the younger generation. Chastise me all you want, but...

I don't particularly have any attraction towards any brand.

Case in point, I owned an HP laptop before my current Acer laptop; farther back I used to share a Mac with the rest of the family. One of these days, when I can finally convince my parents to get a computer OR I manage to gather enough money (I've considered getting a job, either this summer or the next), I plan to custom build my computer and install Linux. By then, hopefully I've gained enough expertise in coding that I can learn the command line interface and more or less figure out how to hack things together.

Most products I buy I try to source from word of mouth; for example, say I'm buying a camera - rather than looking at a website like CNET, I instead browse some forums and see what people have to say about their cameras or other cameras. This principle runs especially true if I'm purchasing an object over $50; I want to do my research before completely investing.

Objects like clothes I understand that they're made with cheap factory labor - what else can I do? Here, I just follow what my mom thinks, and just pick whatever looks nice from the men's section.

Other stuff like food, I leave up to my parents to decide; yes, I still can't cook at 15.

And re: minimum wage - I think the minimum wage should be livable. Not saying it should be able to afford things like college or a Ferrari, but we shouldn't have Walmart employees who live in homeless shelters.

[adventurernumber1]

I have always found Kirkland-brand products (from Costco) to be very superb in quality. Hell, even my glasses (which I got at Costco a few months ago) are Kirkland-brand, and they were way, way, way cheaper than getting glasses at other places (they were maybe around $50)–albeit the quality is just as good. I am a fan of the Kirkland flavored sparkling waters, and I can't tell a difference in taste and quality between that and the other brand (that's identical save the brand name)–except for one flavor (the Strawberry Kiwi), which taste different and have different colors (one green, one pink)–both flavors are equally good in taste and quality, they simply differ in that one flavor.

But anyways, on the other hand, I have typically had mediocre experiences with Kroger-brand products compared to the main brands. For example, Kroger-brand potato chips are not anywhere remotely close to as good as those from the actual chip brands (such as Lays). Also, Kroger-brand Mylanta (over-the-counter medication for acid reflux) was absolutely horrible. I have no idea how effective it was in relieving the symptoms because I just couldn't drink the stuff. It tasted absolutely nasty, and I just could not choke it down. We had picked it up that one time because regular-brand Mylanta was out of stock at the moment, but I will just forego Mylanta entirely before I would drink that stuff again. I think brands (i.e. Kroger) should stick to producing what they're good at, instead of trying to cash in on extra industries they don't specialize in. Although as mentioned earlier, I have always had incredible quality with most or all Kirkland-brand products I have gotten, so some brands can pull it off.

[Beltway]

I see nothing above about learning a trade.  They are always in demand, and many of them pay very well.

Let's not be ingenuine; I'll do the inflation calculation that you deliberately ignored:  $1.60 in 1970 is $10.61 today.  Current fed minimum wage = $7.25.

Like I have said, $1.60 in 1970 x 40 hours a week was not enough to support even one person in a small apartment with an old car.

You added room and board making the comparison inappropriate.  And because of the examples I provided, your assertion that VA Tech was on the cheaper side is unfounded.

Since I was applying to colleges then I have a fairly good idea of what they cost.

I don't know the exact tuition amount but it was about 1/2.  Including room and board is important if you need to live on campus, i.e. are too far away to commute.

VA Tech was definitely less expensive than UVA and W&M.

I agree about the trades.  However, the exponential cost in attending college has been outright immoral.

No argument there.  My alma mater for my business school degrees, from their website today --
Residents of Virginia pay an annual total price of $32,041 to attend Virginia Commonwealth University on a full time basis.  This fee is comprised of $12,094 for tuition, $11,506 room and board, $2,860 for books and supplies and $2,399 for other fees.

Now if you take your first 2 years commuting to a community college, which is feasible given that there are 40 campuses around the state.  From their website today --
With higher education costs continuing to increase across the commonwealth and nationwide, Virginia's Community Colleges remain a smart choice for students who are beginning postsecondary education or returning to college mid-career.

Virginia's Community Colleges are meeting an affordable tuition goal: tuition will not exceed half of the average cost to attend a public four-year institution in Virginia.

For the 2018-19 academic year, in-state tuition and mandatory fees for our colleges will be approximately $4,620 for two semesters of full-time study (15 credit hours per semester).

[Scott5114]

Case in point, I owned an HP laptop before my current Acer laptop; farther back I used to share a Mac with the rest of the family. One of these days, when I can finally convince my parents to get a computer OR I manage to gather enough money (I've considered getting a job, either this summer or the next), I plan to custom build my computer and install Linux. By then, hopefully I've gained enough expertise in coding that I can learn the command line interface and more or less figure out how to hack things together.

The command line interface–better start calling it a shell if you're moving to Linux, and besides it's shorter–really has nothing to do with coding. It's more akin to learning how to use Windows Explorer, but by typing instead of clicking.

If you want a preview while you're still on Windows, press Win+R, type cmd, hit enter, and have fun. 'cd' changes directories, 'dir/w' lets you see what's in them.

[formulanone]

I see nothing above about learning a trade.  They are always in demand, and many of them pay very well.

I agree about the trades.  However, the exponential cost in attending college has been outright immoral.

No argument there.  My alma mater for my business school degrees, from their website today...

I'm not going to discount the trades, but a good trade school can cost as much as junior college (or greater, once tools, supplies, and materials are factored in). Learning a trade is far easier if you had a family member to learn/borrow from in the first place. It's also going to be 5+ years until one is going to be profitable an pay off associated debts; possibly longer if you're starting your own business out of it, unless the demand is intense for your services.

[Beltway]

I'm not going to discount the trades, but a good trade school can cost as much as junior college (or greater, once tools, supplies, and materials are factored in). Learning a trade is far easier if you had a family member to learn/borrow from in the first place. It's also going to be 5+ years until one is going to be profitable an pay off associated debts; possibly longer if you're starting your own business out of it, unless the demand is intense for your services.

So it would take the equivalent of 4 full-time semesters to learn a trade?

How many trades would take more than 4 months of fulltime study to learn and become certified in?

[formulanone]

I'm not going to discount the trades, but a good trade school can cost as much as junior college (or greater, once tools, supplies, and materials are factored in). Learning a trade is far easier if you had a family member to learn/borrow from in the first place. It's also going to be 5+ years until one is going to be profitable an pay off associated debts; possibly longer if you're starting your own business out of it, unless the demand is intense for your services.

So it would take the equivalent of 4 full-time semesters to learn a trade?

How many trades would take more than 4 months of fulltime study to learn and become certified in?

I can't say precisely, I haven't learned a trade; but it depends on the complexity of the repair and skills acquired, right? The same reason you don't become a physician after four years of undergraduate school. I don't think there's a lot of well-paying trades that can truly promise you a degree in four months unless you had significant training and expertise in a similar field of work, and could shift those skills over quickly and adeptly in short order.

But I do work with automotive/truck technicians on a frequent basis, many go for at least 2-3 years (what, 5-6 semesters). Some people get a good bit of prior experience, and start out a little lower on the ladder; that's not to say they're less-qualified, but like a college degree, some level of proven mastery makes you more valuable. I think many of the trade school-educated auto/truck technicians learn one or two makes, because it's a good feeder system for the best students to a job. There are some "dropouts", or those who have to try another semester, or they turn wrenches elsewhere for a lower rate of pay, depending on experience, aptitude, and job performance.

So they can rack up debt for a starting pay of $8-15/hour as well, depending on the area. There's always demand for good and great technicians, but basic n'er-do-wells are a dime a dozen in the industry. Don't get me wrong, the ones who are truly problem solvers and take pride in their work are modern-day magicians.

[Beltway]

Tractor-trailer driving schools take a few months, but I gather that is a much tougher trade than many think, that it takes about 3 years of driving employment to get to a decent income and decent hours.

[kphoger]

If you want a preview while you're still on Windows, press Win+R, type cmd, hit enter, and have fun. 'cd' changes directories, 'dir/w' lets you see what's in them.

If only it were actual DOS!

When I don't have a good idea where to find a file or exactly what it's called, I still use the command prompt to search for the filename by using command options:  for example,  dir/s *undab* | more, if I'm looking for a file that I'm pretty sure contains "roundabout" in the filename.

Also, command prompt is a good way to check your internet connection if you dropping offline:  you can even use options to specify how many packets to send out and other things like that.  For example, below are screenshots from a ping test I just sent out from my computer here at work.  (Note:  I had to add the word "out" in that previous sentence, because here's what it looks like otherwise due to an apparent forum autocorrect:  a pin test I just computer)